It's a Fight for Survival -- Pull Out All Stops

w4...have you ever been to the middle east at all?

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I presume that this is rhetorical?

Ever been at the tip of the spear?

Again rhetorical.

w4rma is a "keyboard commando" fighting under the banner of appeasement.

Edited to add:

Disinformation must be corrected. Salam means peace. Islam is the religion of "submission." Same root, different arabic measure. I know for a fact that there are a ton of peaceful muslims; I have met them and worked with them in the ME. However, Islam is constantly mischaracterized as the religion of peace.

W4rma, don't feel like I'm picking on just you as Mr. Lonesome Polecat, but I'm getting a bit fed up with all the name-calling from both sides. I could get all cutesy and cleverish with "Aw, don't beat around the bush; tell us how you REALLY feel." but that doesn't help matters either.

Either discuss the issues in some semblance of a grownup manner or go play in some other forum.

This applies to everybody; to the whole spectrum of viewpoints.

The "Or Else!" is that a whole bunch of threads are gonna disappear.

Art

I seriously think that some ultra leftists believe it's possible to fight a war perfectly...no mistakes.

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Listen to some of the ideas proposed by folks on the right-wing who are frustrated that their fantasies haven't come true in Iraq:

advocating torture, advocating nuking everyone and everything there, advocating blockading the Iraqi border and killing everyone still inside.

advocating torture, advocating nuking everyone and everything there, advocating blockading the Iraqi border and killing everyone still inside.

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You're absolutely right...I couldn't agree more. Those folks are nutbags, too. I think the idea is to be careful not to be one of the nutbags though, right?

No, we mainly want to just kill all the TERRORISTS. We are at war with them and you need to pick a side. You can side with the US, or you can side with the terrorists. It's sad some people choose the terrorists over their own country.

advocating torture, advocating nuking everyone and everything there, advocating blockading the Iraqi border and killing everyone still inside.

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You're absolutely right...I couldn't agree more. Those folks are nutbags, too. I think the idea is to be careful not to be one of the nutbags though, right?

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Well, when you don't call them on this crap when they say it, instead of waiting for someone like me to do it for you, it makes it appear that you advocate the same "nutbag" ideas.

These neo-con whackjobs want a Crusade, they want the Inquisition and all of a sudden they are shocked, shocked I say, at reality, at what it looks like once implemented.

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No, we want to win. And we want our military to be able to do what it really does best; destroy the enemy. The whole "hearts and minds" thing is an utter load of fetid horse crap that doesn't belong in a fighting organization.

You wanna make friends with those jerks? Go buy 'em a cheese burger.

You've seen me call them on it, if you're paying attention.

The point I'm trying to make is, extremists on either side have become a detriment to honest discourse.

Where do you think you personally lie?

Where do you think you personally lie?

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Mainstream America.

You forgot the smiley face.

Seriously...that's ludicrous.

You've got to be kidding me. If you think you represent mainstream America, you are seriously deluded.

Seriously...that's ludicrous.

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If you quit thinking of me as an evil liberal, you'll notice that just about all my predictions have come true and just about everything I've said has been, sooner or later, backed up by mainstream American news.

I'm not on the fringe that wants to nuke Iraq and invade Syria and Iran. I'm not on the fringe that wants to get rid of our armed forces and hope that everyone treats America well.

The "mainstream American news" is seriously liberal.

The "mainstream American news" is seriously liberal.

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No, they're seriously corporate. (Look at their owners and advertisers for proof.)

So I guess you think that there is no "liberal bias" in the "mainstream American news."

Tell you what, w4rma...

Go to your nearest streetcorner, grab a soapbox, and start speaking your views to "mainstream America."

Seriously...do it...

So I guess you think that there is no "liberal bias" in the "mainstream American news."

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I agree with 41% of voters on this issue.
Plurality of Voters Say Conservatives Have More Influence in the Media Than Liberals
Findings of a National Survey Conducted for Media Matters for America

Media Matters for America recently commissioned a poll by the Garin-Hart-Yang Research Group to assess how Americans get their news about national government and politics. The poll also explores attitudes toward various media outlets and the relationship between news source choices and political and public policy awareness.

The poll of 1,010 voters, conducted from March 30 - April 3, 2004, provides a snapshot of how the news media and the American public interact -- including Americans' media preferences; the reasons for those preferences; concerns about the spread of conservative misinformation throughout the media; opinions of specific media outlets and personalities; and views on media responsibility.

The poll will also serve as a Media Matters for America baseline for examining changes over time in the public's media choices and attitudes. It will help media monitoring entities, including Media Matters for America, track gains and losses in the popularity and credibility of various media sources, as well as the public's views regarding the ideological composition of the media. Perhaps most important, the poll will provide the baseline for gauging public awareness of the pervasiveness of conservative misinformation. We intend to revisit these issues in the future; for now, the Garin-Hart-Yang poll provides a wealth of insight into the state of the media today.

The complete report on this national survey is available. Please click here to download and read the report. If the report document does not open automatically on your computer, you may need to download Adobe Acrobat Reader.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200405020001

The Garin-Hart-Yang research institute?

This is absolutely hilarious.

From their own website!

The Garin-Hart-Yang Research Group, the political division of Peter D. Hart Research Associates, is one of the most respected and successful political polling firms in the country for Democratic candidates.

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but wait...there's more:

And in 1994, a disastrous year for Democrats across the country, Garin-Hart-Yang helped Dianne Feinstein in California and Chuck Robb in Virginia turn back the two best-funded Republican challenges in history.

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w4...you're a fun person.

This is FUN

Well, as long as this thread is wandering about...

Press bias: Of the more "big time" media folks, direct questioning reveals that some 80%, mas o menos, vote Democrat. To me, the effect of this lies in an inherent bias when writing. It shows most in the various newspaper editorials and articles where guns are involved, just as the in tenor of news reports on TV on such events as Columbine.

Personal opinion, "sorta" verified by decades of observation: Those people who are inherently conservative by nature generally tend toward majoring in the sciences when in college. Those people who are inherently liberal by nature generally tend to major in the Liberal Arts curricula such as philosophy, psychology, languages and journalism.

I submit that most people see themselves as "objective" in their views. Regardless, they cannot write about a subject beyond "who/what/when/where" without getting their own viewpoints into the "why".

To me, the best measuring device for conservative vs. liberal in the media is the comparative treatments on the firearms issues. How many Vin Suprinowicz types are there, compared to the Tom Teepen types?

, Art

In an attempt to understand those on other sides of this issue, I have three serious questions for Americans who think we should not have liberated Iraq:

1. Do you believe that the U.S. is threatened by a loosely-tied coalition of extremists who have a deep-rooted desire to punish and/or kill all those who don't follow their religion? If you don't believe the fight is serious or if you believe these extremists will just live and let live, I can understand why you disagee with any efforts to fight back.

2. Are there specific events or actions that the United States should have done differently in the past that would have kept these extremists from hating and killing Americans? Please tell me what our country should have done differently.

3. Now that we are in a fight with extremists who's upbringing, culture, mythology and religion (at least THEIR view of their religion) all support the punishment and death of all who do not follow their religion, how do you suggest we win?

(BTW w4rma -- I appreciate your perspectives here on THR, I just would like to see some interest in guns from you sometime you're missing out if you're not into shooting or not using THR to improve your shooting.)

When a couple of planes hit two buildings in NYC, one hit the pentagon, and one hit the ground it should have been golves off time. Terrorists announced their intentions in language that anybody should have been able to understand. Going after terrorists and their financiers should be out highest priority. We should fight the same way they do, to win. Saddam supplied lots of money and material to lots of people. He basically told the world to go to hell for twelve years. We are now involved with more than a few different people wanting to destroy us. Personally I would rather fight them there than down town St Louis but that is just me. I don't like the long supply line but it is still liveable. What I really detest is the appairant lack of conviction on the command staff. We can win this but we have to get down and dirty. The general command has become just like the elected people. Nobody makes a decision without eleventy committee meetings to have a rear covering concensus. Everybody is afraid to make any kind of judgment call that could cost them their job. This kind of command gets people killed and gives the opposition reason to believe they can win. If we keep up the current extremely poor planning and execution we will loose more than we can afford to.

Do you believe that the U.S. is threatened by a loosely-tied coalition of extremists who have a deep-rooted desire to punish and/or kill all those who don't follow their religion?

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Yes, however the reason those people want to kill and/or punish the US has to do with more than their extremist interpretation of Islam. It has an awful lot to do with US support of Israel, US troops stationed in the Middle East (bin Laden was particularly honked off about that), US interference in the region over a period of decades, and US support of despotic secular rulers like the Shah of Iran and Saddam Hussein.

Are there specific events or actions that the United States should have done differently in the past that would have kept these extremists from hating and killing Americans?

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See above. There's a bunch of stuff we could and should have done differently.

Now that we are in a fight with extremists who's upbringing, culture, mythology and religion (at least THEIR view of their religion) all support the punishment and death of all who do not follow their religion, how do you suggest we win?

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That's an excellent question. I've asked it here in several threads myself today. I haven't come up with an answer either, but I am pretty sure you can't kill an idea or fight a culture using bombs and bullets.

See above. There's a bunch of stuff we could and should have done differently.

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For the sake of argument, let's say that's true. Does that diminish your resolve as to what has to be done now?

Al Qaeda and other terrorists are extant on the ground in Iraq. Serendipitously, they happen to share that space with a lot of armed Soldiers and Marines (and Airmen and Sailors).

Yeah, we're gonna lose some troops...but things are working out pretty nicely for the good guys, if you ask me.