To preserve liberty, we must destroy it.

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Let's put the shoe on the other foot...shall we?

Would you feel the same way, voice the same objections, if I called Hussein....what was it that Georgie's daddy called him?...Saddam Insane?

Somehow, I think not.
 
Re: calling political opponents bad names...

It happens all the time on this board: Democrats (or Democrats) instead of Democrats, California, Dianne FeinSchwein, etc.

It always makes the poster look intolerant, bigoted, and as if he needs to resort to name-calling rather than using fact and reason to debate.

Always.
 
Would you feel the same way, voice the same objections, if I called Hussein....what was it that Georgie's daddy called him?...Saddam Insane?
Yes. Didn't like it then; don't like it now. Once the names start being used, all pretense of intellectual discussion is gone ...
 
Maybe so, Derek, but I don't think you can say I've resorted to name-calling in lieu of using fact and reason to debate...can you? I believe I've presented a rational defense of my positions.
 
I dont think the name calling does anything except infantisize any discussion or statement of position. The right and left love this as an appeal to the least mature and intelligent among us. The fact is it is cowardly and dishonorable. You dont call people things like that to their face without expecting to come to blows. You want to punch the President because you disagree with him? You probably kick your dog when it does not agree with you to.
 
Who said anything about "punching" anyone?!?

And I suppose your last statement is "mature and intelligent", eh?

Grow up.
 
ledhead686 said:
btw, Derek -- LOVE your Madison quote in your sig.
Yeah, I'm still amazed. The founders, the Bible, Shakespeare, the Qur'an, the Upanishads, Homer, Sun Tzu -- it all shows that times change, but people remain people all the same.

Too bad he was right. :(
 
I hear you, Middy. All these "the terrorists are gonna snuff us all" kooks should seek immediate treatment for their over-riding sense of paranoia.

Ehh...that is what you meant, right? ;)

Later -- this thread's about had it.
 
And just what has your belly-aching post have to do with what we're talking about here...Maj. Frank Burns?!?

Oh yeah, you are really grown up. Call dumbya that to his face- I bet he would kick your ass up around your ears. And I dont even like him, I am a Democrat- but I like you even less.
 
Nyah, nyah...you can't get me!

Now that's what I call an "intelligent and mature" response! What next -- "I know you are but what am I?"...or how about, "I'm rubber, you're glue..." :neener:
 
"Would you feel the same way, voice the same objections, if I called Hussein....what was it that Georgie's daddy called him?...Saddam Insane?"

Actually he also called him a donkey ????er, on many occasions. Actually every occasion :)
 
The pot calling the kettle black...

I suggest you re-read your posts in this thread.

(I'm outta this thread -- this is getting embarrassing). :eek:
 
People need to stop concentrating on being pacifists and start thinking about what would happen in the future if we pulled out of Iraq.
and
If anyone thinks that these anti-war protestors are real pacificits [sic]

Some of the anti-war people are pacifists, and some are not. Some were fighting in the jungles of Southeast Asia back when you were still in diapers.

Seriously, when people look back on Nam and see the problems caused by protesters

Darned anti-war folks had to go and ruin the party for everyone. Sheesh...

They see that it encourages the enemy, it erodes public support and backing and it puts our troops and country in more jeopardy.

Public support for the war is eroding because we continue to lose three soldiers per day in what was sold to us by the neocons as a "cakewalk." Public support erodes as Dick Cheney tells us the lie that the insurgency is in "its last throes" and Bush continues to tell us the lie that Iraq had something to do with 9-11.

He said "by any means necessary" which is a term of art these days. You can't imply illegal means until and unless they actually advocate such means. You, however, had to ad "gag" and "indict" to the argument to support your attack on his freedom of speech.

Go back and read his exact words. He said that anti-war protestors were "giving aid and comfort to the enemy," which is the very definition of treason, a federal crime. Publicly accusing someone of a crime implies calling for the enforcement of the law against them.

I and many other military members view this sort of dissent as a lack of appreciation on thier part for what we do and the sacrifices we make throughout our entire careers.

And for what purpose? So that Washington, D.C., can dominate the world? No thanks, I'm not interested. Have you ever heard of General Smedley Butler, USMC?

Butler: "I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested."

I apologize about the comment about saddam being connected to terrorists. That is my personal opinion based on intel that I have received.

There's no evidence that Saddam was behind the 9-11 attack on this country.

According to UNR 1442 we should have invaded in the early nineties the first time he kicked the inspectors out.

Utter nonsense. Saddam never kicked out UN WMD inspectors. (Your "intel" seems to be wildy off the mark.)

What about providing money (ranging from $10K to $25K) to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers? At a minimum, that is encouraging future bombings by allowing the terrorists to know that after their gone, their families will be provided for.

True, Saddam funded Arab violence against Israelis just as the US funds Israeli violence against Arabs.

Like I said it is my personal opinion that he was connected. But other than that there has been nothing that has been released to the public that proves that.

Because it does not exist.

By promoting democracy we secure american interests.

Did the US "promote democracy" when it toppled the constitutionally-elected government of Iran in 1953? Or when it installed the Ba'ath Party into power in Iraq in 1963?

but the fact that protesting now occasions so much media support and coverage that the real issues become totally obscured.

The real issue is that public support for the war and for Bush has gone into a nosedive. Poll Finds Dimmer View of Iraq War. The Republicans are starting to grow anxious, and Bush himself is starting to come apart at the seams.
 
Java -- excellent post.

Carry'in -- didn't mean to go off on you. It's just that I'm new here (membership date not withstanding) and I felt like I was being double- triple-teamed here for a while.

(Besides that -- I'm half Irish and just love a good scrap!) ;)
 
I think the only title in this thread that can be accurately applied to the protesters is "disappointing." They have a right to protest, and many on this board have spent time in uniform to protect their right to protest. If you don't like their protests, then shake your head and tsk-tsk them, but don't go calling for a gag on them -- lest become that which we declare we fight.

Just my $.02 based on my 12+ years of service.
 
And for what purpose? So that Washington, D.C., can dominate the world?
Oh, c'mon now. Now you're being insulting. I was there. Apparently, there are more Iraqis who appreciate our efforts over there than there are in many parts of our own county. I value my service all the more when I take note of people such as yourself making statements such as this ...
 
Lets not forget that the US ADMITTED that it used "inspectors" to pinpoint and relay target information for bombings (that Clinton carried out low-intensity for hiw whole term).

What utter and ridiculous nonesense. And then he was supposed to let us back in?

Would YOU allow a foreign nation come inspect our many many many nuclear and WMD facilities?

Would YOU allow your oh-so-hated UN to do the same?

Get real here.
 
Please name just ONE example of Palestinians exporting terrorism outside the region, if you would be so kind.

To answer this question:

Munich '72. The Achille Larro(sp)/Leon Klinghoffer are two off the top of my head.

I am sick to death of hearing "Bush Lied".

CAN SOMEONE SHOW ME ONE INSTANCE PRIOR TO THE INVASION OF ANYONE (e.g. A Democrat or THE UN/EUROPEANS)OTHER THAN SADDAM SAYING:

"Iraq does not have WMD."


The quotes from the Democrats stating their belief that Saddam HAD WMD's can be found by doing a search.

Also getting rid of WMD's were one of FOUR reasons for invading Iraq.
the other three:
1. Removal of Saddam and his sons from power. (Any one remember the "Leave Now and Live" proposal prior to the invasion ???)
2. Bring freedom and democracy to the people of Iraq.
3. Prevent the spread of Terrorism.


So enough of the Bush lied cr@p. If he did, then so did everyone else including John Kerry and Bill Clinton.

The anti-war protesting does give the enemy hope. Just ask the North Vietnamese.

If you want to protest the war that's fine, but be principled not just a Bush-basher.

As a veteran, and as someone who has relatives and close personal friends deployed I know can't protest and say you support the the troops, because you don't. You are giving their enemies hope that they can win by demoralizing the American public.

We can either fight them there (in Iraq or Afghanistan) or fight them here (ala 9/11 style). I'd rather fight them over there.
 
Utter nonsense. Saddam never kicked out UN WMD inspectors.
Actually, he did. Apart from his active blocking of the inspectors' efforts, harken back to 1997, when Baghdad stepped up its obstructionist activities. Iraqi officials in June jeopardized the safety of weapons inspectors by grabbing at the controls of UNSCOM helicopters while they were airborne, and Iraq blocked access to several sites. The Security Council responded June 21 by adopting Resolution 1115, condemning Iraq's actions. In September, Iraq barred weapons inspections at locations it described as “presidential sites.” The Security Council responded October 23 with Resolution 1134, which again demanded that Iraq cooperate with weapons inspectors, but the message sent is significantly weakened by the fact that five Security Council members—most notably China, France, and Russia—abstain from the vote.
Days later, Iraq, perhaps bolstered by the evident rift in the Security Council, announced it would not deal at all with U.S. weapons inspectors, ordered them to leave the country, and then blocked inspection teams including US inspectors. UNSCOM and the IAEA withdrew most of their inspectors in response, and the Security Council called on Iraq November 12 to rescind its decision and refrain from imposing any conditions on inspectors.
The United States built up its military forces in the region and threatened action, but its aggressive stance was not backed by the Security Council. Averting a possible US attack, Russia negotiated the return of all inspectors to Iraq November 20. In spite of its pledge to cooperate with inspectors, Baghdad informed UNSCOM in mid-December that the so-called “presidential sites” were still off-limits to inspections.

As for the Butler book, "War is a Racket," well, yes, it certainly is, and it was more so at the time Butler was making a good living giving speeches ... Butler was a good Marine who'd had enough of war, a person who fully realized the true cost of war: dead young Americans (and dead foreign civilians). But, if you're gonna quote Butler, don't leave out this one:
"WELL, it's a racket, all right.

A few profit – and the many pay. But there is a way to stop it. You can't end it by disarmament conferences. You can't eliminate it by peace parleys at Geneva. Well-meaning but impractical groups can't wipe it out by resolutions. It can be smashed effectively only by taking the profit out of war.

The only way to smash this racket is to conscript capital and industry and labor before the nations manhood can be conscripted. One month before the Government can conscript the young men of the nation – it must conscript capital and industry and labor. Let the officers and the directors and the high-powered executives of our armament factories and our munitions makers and our shipbuilders and our airplane builders and the manufacturers of all the other things that provide profit in war time as well as the bankers and the speculators, be conscripted – to get $30 a month, the same wage as the lads in the trenches get.

Let the workers in these plants get the same wages – all the workers, all presidents, all executives, all directors, all managers, all bankers –

yes, and all generals and all admirals and all officers and all politicians and all government office holders – everyone in the nation be restricted to a total monthly income not to exceed that paid to the soldier in the trenches!

Let all these kings and tycoons and masters of business and all those workers in industry and all our senators and governors and majors pay half of their monthly $30 wage to their families and pay war risk insurance and buy Liberty Bonds.

Why shouldn't they?

They aren't running any risk of being killed or of having their bodies mangled or their minds shattered. They aren't sleeping in muddy trenches. They aren't hungry. The soldiers are!

Give capital and industry and labor thirty days to think it over and you will find, by that time, there will be no war. That will smash the war racket – that and nothing else."

The fact is, though, international relations, U.S. business and the global economy just aren't as simple as they were back in 1913 and 1919 ...
 
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