CombatArmsUSAF
Member
Russia does every year. I pulled force protection for when they came last year in ND. It's part of the S.T.A.R.T. Treaty.
To preserve liberty, we must destroy it.
- Thread starter Sindawe
- Start date
- Status
Russia does every year. I pulled force protection for when they came last year in ND. It's part of the S.T.A.R.T. Treaty.
CombatArmsUSAF
Member
Have you been locked in closet for the last 15-20 years? Or do you not watch the news at all?
Joejojoba111
Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2005
- Messages
- 1,056
I think his point was that it was US inspectors, as in USA inspectors, not UN. I'm just trying to follow along, though.
About the inspectors, the officer in charge of them wrote a book before we went into it with Iraq a second time, Ritchie or something, it was a short small book, and it covered in specific itemized detail why the US government knew there were no WMDs, how and why they pretty much forced the Iraqis to kick them out, and there was a bit of logic that if Iraq had WMDs and we attacked em, then those WMDs woud be used.
So if they really had WMDs, and the gov't believed it, then Iraq wouldn't be attacked. The fact that they were attacked almost proves that there was knowledge that there were no WMDs. And then the decade of inspectors roaming freely across the country explaining that there were no WMDs supports that.
Some people buy the logic immediately, some need some time to come around to it. I don't expect anyone to suddenly up and agree, especially without having read the book written by the US General in charge of weapons inspections.
But remember, this wasn't just going to be a quick war, it was going to be a cake-walk. Almost zero casualties, simple, easy.
Ask yourself, honestly, how can you rectify the statement that the war would be a cake-walk with the statement that there was absolute evidence Iraq had WMDs and could deploy them in 15 minutes? When 1 person says both these statments, often at the same time, that pretty much convinces me what's up.
(but now that we are in we have to stay and finish the job, because leaving Iraq is like leaving a camp-fire unattended in the forest in August.)
About the inspectors, the officer in charge of them wrote a book before we went into it with Iraq a second time, Ritchie or something, it was a short small book, and it covered in specific itemized detail why the US government knew there were no WMDs, how and why they pretty much forced the Iraqis to kick them out, and there was a bit of logic that if Iraq had WMDs and we attacked em, then those WMDs woud be used.
So if they really had WMDs, and the gov't believed it, then Iraq wouldn't be attacked. The fact that they were attacked almost proves that there was knowledge that there were no WMDs. And then the decade of inspectors roaming freely across the country explaining that there were no WMDs supports that.
Some people buy the logic immediately, some need some time to come around to it. I don't expect anyone to suddenly up and agree, especially without having read the book written by the US General in charge of weapons inspections.
But remember, this wasn't just going to be a quick war, it was going to be a cake-walk. Almost zero casualties, simple, easy.
Ask yourself, honestly, how can you rectify the statement that the war would be a cake-walk with the statement that there was absolute evidence Iraq had WMDs and could deploy them in 15 minutes? When 1 person says both these statments, often at the same time, that pretty much convinces me what's up.
(but now that we are in we have to stay and finish the job, because leaving Iraq is like leaving a camp-fire unattended in the forest in August.)
griz
Member
If your interested I can show you people who did not believe saddam posed a threat to the US. I think that speaks more about the opposition to the invasion than their WMD status.
It's impossible to prove a negative. I don't remember anyone who flat-out said "Iraq has no WMD" besides the Iraqi leadership. However, you might want to look at this.
War on Iraq: What Team Bush Doesn't Want You to Know by Scott Ritter. Ritter--ex-Marine, intelligence specialist, expert on Iraqi military strategy, and Gulf War veteran--dismantles the myths surrounding Saddam Hussein's biological, chemical and nuclear weapons capabilities while revealing the neo-conservative forces pushing the White House toward war.
See also Mohamed ElBaradei.
scout26
Member
Javafiend,
I am not asking you to prove a negative. But was there ONE person in the US government in the last 15 years, in a position to know, who did NOT think that Iraq had WMD and stated that belief prior to the invasion.
You might want to reconsider using Scott Ritter as a source for your facts
. I prefer the report to congress (can't think of the gentleman's name right now), after it was announced the we had not found WMD in Iraq. I believe that we found R & D and scientists and other stuff to point to WMD programs, but not a big Red Neon Sign pointing to a warehouse reading "A-BOMBS AND CHEMICAL WEAPONS ARE IN HERE."
Joejojoba111, who was saying this ??? Can you provide a quote ???
I am not asking you to prove a negative. But was there ONE person in the US government in the last 15 years, in a position to know, who did NOT think that Iraq had WMD and stated that belief prior to the invasion.
You might want to reconsider using Scott Ritter as a source for your facts
. I prefer the report to congress (can't think of the gentleman's name right now), after it was announced the we had not found WMD in Iraq. I believe that we found R & D and scientists and other stuff to point to WMD programs, but not a big Red Neon Sign pointing to a warehouse reading "A-BOMBS AND CHEMICAL WEAPONS ARE IN HERE."Joejojoba111, who was saying this ??? Can you provide a quote ???
entropy
Member
Ledhead686 said:
Munich, 1972. Terrorists from the PLO killed members of the Israeli Olympic Team, as well as members of West Germany's CT unit.
I cited one. there are others.
Perhaps I should change my sig line to the one I have on another forum:
Munich, 1972. Terrorists from the PLO killed members of the Israeli Olympic Team, as well as members of West Germany's CT unit.
I cited one. there are others.
Perhaps I should change my sig line to the one I have on another forum:
I know a few people protesting the war. All are either Gulf War (and pre-GW-era) veterans and/or their wives. All go to the local Baywalk on occasion to protest with other like minded people. Heck, some of the veterans are VFW and AL members.
These are honorable, family people who choose to assemble, peaceably, to let their opinions be known. They are not ELF/ALF terrorsts, looters, lunatics, vegans, or troublemakers. They are, despite what any of you think, bonafide patriotic Americans, a few of which held clearances and did missions for NSA during the Cold War years. Their opinion is that although everybody there "signed on the dotted line" like they did, their current mission has nothing to do with defending country or constitution. They feel it IS hard to argue all those guys wouldn't be more valuable on the borders and ports.
Some of the LEOs "looking after" them at Baywalk are very concerned with their being allowed to peaceably protest, and the safety of all involved. Others seem bent on repeating "I wasn't looking" when one of the protesters are pelted with some item by the hoi polloi.
What they say is irrelevant as long as it's done peacefully. I have no sympathy for agitators, whether its the plainclothes LEO ( the "lets infiltrate, start a riot, and arrest everybody" kind), the violent protester, or the violent anti-protestor.
I would hope that people would be a little more open minded, especially when veterans are protesting too. It might be you out there protesting a 2A issue one day, with your kid, catching a flying and full coke-can in your face (or the kids face). Calls for "any means" are just going to exacerbate that.
These are honorable, family people who choose to assemble, peaceably, to let their opinions be known. They are not ELF/ALF terrorsts, looters, lunatics, vegans, or troublemakers. They are, despite what any of you think, bonafide patriotic Americans, a few of which held clearances and did missions for NSA during the Cold War years. Their opinion is that although everybody there "signed on the dotted line" like they did, their current mission has nothing to do with defending country or constitution. They feel it IS hard to argue all those guys wouldn't be more valuable on the borders and ports.
Some of the LEOs "looking after" them at Baywalk are very concerned with their being allowed to peaceably protest, and the safety of all involved. Others seem bent on repeating "I wasn't looking" when one of the protesters are pelted with some item by the hoi polloi.
What they say is irrelevant as long as it's done peacefully. I have no sympathy for agitators, whether its the plainclothes LEO ( the "lets infiltrate, start a riot, and arrest everybody" kind), the violent protester, or the violent anti-protestor.
I would hope that people would be a little more open minded, especially when veterans are protesting too. It might be you out there protesting a 2A issue one day, with your kid, catching a flying and full coke-can in your face (or the kids face). Calls for "any means" are just going to exacerbate that.
Sindawe
Member
Hey now, lets not lump all vegans with the nut-jobs. I was a vegan for eight years, and NEVER supported the loons (my apologies to true Loons) that are ELF/ALF.
Ledhead686
Member
One good turn deserves another, entropy
Thought this might pique your interest --
http:www.jerusalemiloveyou.net/article.php3?id_article=80
btw -- the sig change sounds like a winner.
Thought this might pique your interest --
http:www.jerusalemiloveyou.net/article.php3?id_article=80
btw -- the sig change sounds like a winner.
Joejojoba111
Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2005
- Messages
- 1,056
"http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=635942003"
Originally was 45 minutes (still unfounded), and then you know how our society is in a rush these days...
And you can see Rumsfeld make several comments on how easy the war would be, how quick, how easy, how fast, how simple. And you can also see him say that Iraq had WMDs. That's just an easy one to quote. Blair also easy, Bush too, Powell (though he seemed uncomfortable saying some things, to his credit), I don't care to go to the library and make digital copies of all the press conferences, and then host them and share them, though. So I perhaps cannot convince you fully.
Originally was 45 minutes (still unfounded), and then you know how our society is in a rush these days...
And you can see Rumsfeld make several comments on how easy the war would be, how quick, how easy, how fast, how simple. And you can also see him say that Iraq had WMDs. That's just an easy one to quote. Blair also easy, Bush too, Powell (though he seemed uncomfortable saying some things, to his credit), I don't care to go to the library and make digital copies of all the press conferences, and then host them and share them, though. So I perhaps cannot convince you fully.
Sindawe...
WOW!
My sincerest apologies. The fact that you survived 8 years eating uncooked plant matter (by choice no less) makes you a stronger willed man than I.
I am not like you, for I am weak, and without my regular fix of the devil Southern BBQ at regular intervals, would surely resort to looting and shooting to support my habit.
I will mend my post if you insist.
WOW!
My sincerest apologies. The fact that you survived 8 years eating uncooked plant matter (by choice no less) makes you a stronger willed man than I.
I am not like you, for I am weak, and without my regular fix of the devil Southern BBQ at regular intervals, would surely resort to looting and shooting to support my habit.
I will mend my post if you insist.
DRZinn
Member
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle,
John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
"Hussein has... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
"There is no doubt that... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001
"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002
"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of
weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002
"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do"
- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including
al Qaeda members .. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his
continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
Note: I have not personally verified these quotes. I have them (if I remember correctly) from a reputable source.
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle,
John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
"Hussein has... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
"There is no doubt that... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001
"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002
"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of
weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002
"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do"
- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including
al Qaeda members .. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his
continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
Note: I have not personally verified these quotes. I have them (if I remember correctly) from a reputable source.
DRZinn
Member
By what stretch of the imagination is that capitalism at all, much less a capitalist utopia? The conditions in South America were created and are supported by massive corruption and brutal government force.
Sindawe
Member
RE: DocZinn's post. Sounds awfully similar to whats coming out of Washington D.C about Iran. 
Ledhead686
Member
So, we're in Iraq fighting for "freedom & democracy?!?"
Think again --
http://www.ihr.org/other/thechallenge.html
Think again
--http://www.ihr.org/other/thechallenge.html
Ledhead686
Member
You read the entire article in 7 minutes?! Impressive...
Another "open-minded" Bush supporter I see.
Great counterpoint there, RH Lee -- really put me in my place.
later, people -- it's been...somewhat real.
Another "open-minded" Bush supporter I see.
Great counterpoint there, RH Lee -- really put me in my place.
later, people -- it's been...somewhat real.
Ledhead686
Member
What say we let people who've actually read the article formulate their own opinions...okay?
Sindawe
Member
Can I interest you in some Martian beachfront property?
Oh come on Ledhead686, any right-thinking person knows that ANY sort of criticism of the U.S. and/or Israel is motivated purely by blind hatred of this country and/or those of the Jewish faith/ethnicity.
/sarcasm
Oh come on Ledhead686, any right-thinking person knows that ANY sort of criticism of the U.S. and/or Israel is motivated purely by blind hatred of this country and/or those of the Jewish faith/ethnicity.
/sarcasm
Old Dog
Member
Well, I have read the article. It's drivel.
Ledhead686
Member
Gee, first RH Lee's masterful refutation, now this...
Boy, have I been put in my place!
Sindawe:
Boy, have I been put in my place!
Sindawe:
Old Dog
Member
Well, statements such as these:
“A Jewish cabal have taken over the government in the United States and formed an unholy alliance with fundamentalist Christians,” said Tam Dalyell, a Labour party deputy known as “Father of the House” because he is the longest-serving Member of Parliament.
“There is far too much Jewish influence in the United States,”
No, the US-Israel alliance is, rather, a consequence, a result, of the Jewish-Zionist grip on American political and cultural life.
Jewish-Zionist plans to overthrow the Iraqi regime by force were already in place well before George W. Bush became president.
Second, because of the distrustful and even adversarial way that Jews view the rest of us.
This Us vs. Them attitude, this mindset that sees Jews as dis?tinct from, and superior to, the rest of humanity, is deeply rooted in the Jewish psyche.
... speak for themselves ...
“A Jewish cabal have taken over the government in the United States and formed an unholy alliance with fundamentalist Christians,” said Tam Dalyell, a Labour party deputy known as “Father of the House” because he is the longest-serving Member of Parliament.
“There is far too much Jewish influence in the United States,”
No, the US-Israel alliance is, rather, a consequence, a result, of the Jewish-Zionist grip on American political and cultural life.
Jewish-Zionist plans to overthrow the Iraqi regime by force were already in place well before George W. Bush became president.
Second, because of the distrustful and even adversarial way that Jews view the rest of us.
This Us vs. Them attitude, this mindset that sees Jews as dis?tinct from, and superior to, the rest of humanity, is deeply rooted in the Jewish psyche.
... speak for themselves ...
Ledhead686
Member
And your point?
My apologies, Old Dog -- you've "refuted" the entire article in a matter of mere minutes. I stand corrected.
catch y'all tomorrow.
My apologies, Old Dog -- you've "refuted" the entire article in a matter of mere minutes. I stand corrected.
catch y'all tomorrow.
- Status
