To preserve liberty, we must destroy it.

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They would kill their grandmother if she stood in the way of their political religion and nihilism. Look at any Socialist state and see beyond the progaganda and you will see no utopia.

You are right- utopianism is a bad thing. But it goes both ways. You want to see the capitalist idea of utopia just look south to the banana republic's; 1% own everything, always have, always will, and the other 99% live in cardboard boxes and slave for their masters. Try and start a new political party or a union to "redistribute" that wealth and you disappear. And dont worry about anyone asking what happened to you; they will disappear to. The left might like to see us turned into Yugoslavia, but the right wants a "Brazil North." Either way sucks. Remember that when you start leaning so far right your brain is sideways.
 
It sure is, and I never said that "Commander" Cadmus or others with whom I disagree should be gagged or indicted. That's *his* argument, not mine.

Actually, that is your argument, not his. He said "by any means necessary" which is a term of art these days. You can't imply illegal means until and unless they actually advocate such means. You, however, had to ad "gag" and "indict" to the argument to support your attack on his freedom of speech.
 
Below is Neal Boortz's bit on the Antiwar protestors outside of Walter Reed hospital.

I did research last night. This protesting of wounded war vets has been going on for months, but has been, of course, ignored by the media.

But stories are about to finally break soon.

I'd say the American Legion really needs to get out and protest against these wackos.




PROTESTERS SINK TO NEW LOW

Just when you think leftists protesting the war in Iraq can't sink any lower, they do. Today we find out that the Walter Reed Hospital in Washington has been targeted by Democrats protesting the war. Among some of their slogans: "Enlist here and die for Halliburton." How nice. So what are they doing...holding up signs, protesting across the street from the hospital? Not at all. It's much worse.

These uncaring, subhuman wastes of oxygen have been camping out right in front of the main entrance. And not just with signs...they even have fake caskets lined up, right on the sidewalk. So why haven't you heard anything in the media about this over-the-top, shameless bashing of our wounded soldiers? Because the media is ignoring it.

To cover this would cast the anti-war movement in a negative light. We're supposed to believe that those against the war are being led by warm and fuzzy Peace Mom Cindy Sheehan. The press selectively ignores the human dog squeeze that is defacing the sidewalk outside of Walter Reed.

Inside that hospital are soldiers that were injured in the War On Terror...and some of them are fighting for their lives. And how are they honored? By these protesters who tell them they died for Halliburton. The left is turning on the soldiers who are fighting in this war, and we're starting to see it.

Is this what they mean when they say they support the troops, but not the war? That's a strange way of showing it.
 
Unbelievable.

Anti-war protestors have been calling this an "illegal" war, calling the Bush administration and even service members "war criminals", I've even seen signs that say "We support our troops... that frag their commanding officers". But just let someone imply that the anti-war protestors are treasonous and boo-hoo that's not fair, you're a nazi.

I've got to take the high road and avoid saying what I really think.
 
Treasonous?!? How so? By calling Bush to account for the pretenses he cooked-up to get us involved in the ME? -- 9/11 and WMDs?

I'm afraid it is Dumbya himself who is a traitor -- he deliberately LIED to the American public (of course, he uses "faulty intelligence" as as scapegoat). If that is'nt treason, I don't know what is.
 
I'm afraid it is Dumbya himself who is a traitor -- he deliberately LIED to the American public (of course, he uses "faulty intelligence" as as scapegoat). If that is'nt treason, I don't know what is.

Well, given that treason is specifically defined in the Constitution, I'd suggest you don't know what it is.

As for the "Bush lied" mantra, there are about 1001 threads dealing with that subject.
 
As an AL member myself, I see this as more of a way for the AL to take an official stand especially in the wake of recent and more visible anti-war protests. IMO, this is a way for the AL to show it's support for what American forces are doing abroad.

I also think this is a way to make a distinction that the AL does in no way support anti-war protestors who claim to support american troops but call their mission a lie. The "I support you, but you're too stupid to know better and get out of it" shtick that they've been choking up since about 2 years now.

The AL just wants everyone to know that supporting the fighters = supporting the fight because soldiers that dont believe in the fight don't- they move to canada or pretend to be gay.
 
buzz knox...

Whether treason is defined in The Constitution as lying to the public to involve us in overseas wars which the authors of said document were steadfastly against matters not. By any sane man's definition, it's treason with a capital "T."

Led :cool:
 
What I will say is I see this "protesting erodes support and demoralizes and aids the enemy so on and so on..." stuff as a cheap shot.


It does just that. Whenever I see those idiots, I question if fighting for them is worth it. I and many other military members view this sort of dissent as a lack of appreciation on thier part for what we do and the sacrifices we make throughout our entire careers. Just like that idiot Michael Crook that was out running about a few months ago.
 
Whether treason is defined in The Constitution as lying to the public to involve us in overseas wars which the authors of said document were steadfastly against matters not. By any sane man's definition, it's treason with a capital "T."

Don't call upon the memory of the authors while castrating their intent. They defined treason to have a specific meaning so that people could not do what you are doing, using it to cover the cause of the day.

You want to show that Bush lied by intentionally misleading the public, rather by relying upon screwed up intel and mass-held preconceptions? Go for it. Many have tried, including those who voted to give him the authority based on the same intel Bush did and with access to the same people. None have succeeded in making a case for it beyond the "he wanted to go to war and found a reason" opening line.
 
Treasonous?!? How so? By calling Bush to account for the pretenses he cooked-up to get us involved in the ME? -- 9/11 and WMDs?

If you think that bush was lying about the MWD's than you really need to educate yourself on the issue. We know many things.

1. Saddam had WMD
2. Saddam used WMD
3. We invaded and pulled out before they were found
4. UN Resolution 1442 required Saddam to open his doors completely for inspection, or face another invasion.
5. He on multiple occasions over the last 13 or so years violated the resolution by not allowing inspectors in certian areas or not letting them in at all.
6. UN and Clinton did nothing but "Be Diplomatic" to fix the problem
7. Saddam did have terrorist connections
8. Saddam was ordered to show proof that he destroyed the WMD
9. Saddam never showed proof that he did this and no proof has been found to date.
10. We took over a decade to slap saddam into hiding. What does this allow for? Plenty of time to bury, sell, give to his buddy Osama all of his WMD's

Now, small minded people may believe that there were no WMDs to begin with. But as for me I will not believe that the US and all other western countries are safe until those weapons are found. If you have any doubt as to what I am saying you can find it on record in the multiple "Lets be Diplomatic" Resolutions that the United Nations has available on their website.
 
Small-minded?!?

...people who live in glass houses should'nt throw stones there, slick.

THESE are the facts:

- Iraq has NOT been proven to have had anything whatsoever to do with 9/11 and/or links to terrorism.

- We found NO WMDs -- our #1 excuse for invading the region.

- These were the PRETENSES Dumbya used for going to war...period.


I suppose you believe FDR did not purposely leave Pearl Harbor open to attack by the Japanese to involve us in that war... :rolleyes:
 
1. We didn't find any WMD's because we took entirely too long to get in there. And just like a boxer who forecasts his next move, his opponent is going to prepare and get out of the way. I am not saying that not finding the WMD is pleasing to me. I am simply saying that we know that he had them and there has not been any proof that they have been destroyed. Which in turn means that they are out there somewhere. For example, I have set my foot on iraqi soil and I have seen the vast endless deserts. How hard would it be to bury them, take GPS coordinates and come back later for them? :banghead:

2. I apologize about the comment about saddam being connected to terrorists. That is my personal opinion based on intel that I have received. That is not supportable with the information that is available to the public. I withdraw that comment from my previous post.

3. Whether or not he was connected to terrorism or in possesion of WMDs. According to UNR 1442 we should have invaded in the early nineties the first time he kicked the inspectors out. We just did what nobody else had the stones to do.
 
2. I apologize about the comment about saddam being connected to terrorists. That is my personal opinion based on intel that I have received. That is not supportable with the information that is available to the public. I withdraw that comment from my previous post.

What about providing money (ranging from $10K to $25K) to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers? At a minimum, that is encouraging future bombings by allowing the terrorists to know that after their gone, their families will be provided for.
 
Although I did enjoy being called slick. You don't hear that anymore. I got a laugh out of it.

BTW I was not personally attacking you LEDHEAD, I was attacking the idea. I will say that I could have chosen a different expression to get my point across.
 
What about providing money (ranging from $10K to $25K) to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers? At a minimum, that is encouraging future bombings by allowing the terrorists to know that after their gone, their families will be provided for.

I view that as inciting and enabling terrorism, not necassarily dark alley meetings with Osama himself. Many people in this country have been doing virtually the same thing for many years. I remember when I was a kid, an arab shop owner in my neighborhood was shut down after he was caught sending money overseas to a certian organization.

Like I said it is my personal opinion that he was connected. But other than that there has been nothing that has been released to the public that proves that.
 
buzz...

And of course, Palestinian terrorists are a clear and present danger to the US...

correct?

Remember Israel and the US are NOT one and the same -- although I'm sure lobbies such as AIPAC would like to convey that impression to the American public.
 
Well, those Palestinians have been known to kill others than Israelis, or didn't you know that? Like American students and tourists in Israel? They've also been know to export terrorism outside of the region, so the argument "don't go there and you won't be involved" doesn't work.

By the way, so before we go down the "well, the founding fathers didn't mean for us to get involved" BS, let's recall that many of those same individuals authorized punitive action against foreigners who threatened American interests and American lives, even if they never came close to American soil.
 
The palestinians attack Israel, which to date is the only democracy in the ME. I don't count Iraq because the outcome is yet to be seen. By promoting democracy we secure american interests.

Please do not allow this to turn into an American interests = Oil, war, etc.. Thread
 
buzz...

Please name just ONE example of Palestinians exporting terrorism outside the region, if you would be so kind.

And I simply don't buy the "tourists and students getting it" b.s. as an excuse for US involvement in foreign affairs. American tourists are killed in Africa, Asia, South America -- do we invade these countries also?

The fact remains -- we initiated a pre-emptive war. We were in absolutely no danger of attack from the mighty Palestinian juggernaut...now were we?

Gimme a break...
 
Ledhead, all this whining about WMD's just makes you guys look like sore losers. It's the Democrat's fault GWB is in office. They had a chance in 2000 and a second chance 4 years later and blew them both because they have no ideas, no vision, no underlying principles except contempt for Bush. The dims really do need to get their act together and form some coherent plan for opposition. The rest of us are tired of voting for the lesser of two evils.

In the meantime, GWB will be in office until January 20, 2009. Might as well get used to it and use the time productively figuring out how to get back into power.
 
America -- right or wrong! Right?

And just what has your belly-aching post have to do with what we're talking about here...Maj. Frank Burns?!? We're not talking about stealing elections, we're talking about pre-emptive war. You know, attacking nations who have not attacked or directly threatened us.

I personally don't give a damn whether or not it was reps or dems who got us into this desert version of VN -- in my book it's wrong. It's that simple.

btw -- I was a registered Republican. Today, I believe in neither party.
 
There's a credibility issue here.

Let's start with what we know:
  • Decades ago Saddam used chemical weapons on Iranians and Iraqis.
  • It appears that Rumsfeld brokered a deal back then that allowed Saddam to buy chemical weapon precursors from the US in order to build those weapons. It's OK though, because Iran was the bad guy back then.
  • Chemical weapons have a shelf life, just like milk. The stuff he had back then can't still be chemically active, or at least it doesn't present a "WMD" threat any more (I don't doubt it's caustic)
Now, more recently we had the US leadership stating that they had, clear, convincing, undeniable, yet unfortunately secret proof that Saddam had active weapons programs, and even worse -- was planning on using them against the west.

My complaint at the time was that we weren't acting like we had that information.

If the UN was still in charge of inspections (they were), and were saying they couldn't find evidence of WMD possession or manufacture (they were), and were asking us for help in finding them (they were), then why didn't we load a UN team on a pave-low and take them to even one WMD site at 160 MPH -- so fast they couldn't be moved before arrival?

Would have solved the whole problem, wouldn't it? Doesn't sound too hard, does it? So, why didn't we do it?

Because either
  • We didn't have that proof, but thought we'd get it soon enough as soon as we had occupied the country (I doubt many in the US would have disagreed that WMDs would be found once we had free run of the place)
  • We had evidence we trusted, but were more interested in an invasion than we were in disarming the guy.
I'm going with the first option, thanks.

The argument that "it's such a big country -- I'm sure they're just buried somewhere" is crap. You can use that argument for anything, because it can't be disproven. Worse, there's no evidence for it, unless you consider the lack of WMDs in Iraq as proof that they actually exist, and are so well-hidden that they'll never be found. Because, you know, Saddam spent all that time and effort creating them so he could not use them when we invaded his country. Riiiiiiiiiight.

At best, I think the administration was mistaken in its vigor to pursue a war against Iraq. I'm more pessimistic than that -- I think they were selling whatever lies they could in the short-term, with the assumption that the long-term would take care of itself. Unfortunately, the "common knowledge" about WMDs seems to have been wrong...

As for a connection to terrorism, how's this for a plausible attack on terrorism:
  • The terrorists are Muslims who have taken their beliefs to a level so that it's no longer recognizable as Islam.
  • The number one target of these terrorists is the "non-Muslim" regimes in the middle east -- Saudi Arabia (where they can't foment change because of US backing) and especially Saddam Hussein, since he brands himself a Muslim but is actually running the most secular regime in the region.
  • It's been argued that OBL hated Saddam more than the US, and I haven't seen any refutation of that.
  • So, knowing this, Saddam hooked up with his biggest enemies, and was planning on giving them his most potent and effective weapons.
  • So, in order to fight terror fomented by islamic extremists, it's our American duty to topple the least Islamic government in the region. Because, of course, once national elections are held later, in a nation right next to Iran, we're certain that the radical Islamists won't gain any power.
Guys, I'm not buying it.
 
What I will say is I see this "protesting erodes support and demoralizes and aids the enemy so on and so on..." stuff as a cheap shot.
Speaking as one who was there ... I can say that the protests never demoralized me, nor anyone I was with ... but the protests are simply so very, very disappointing. However, it's not so much that protesting in any way, shape or form actually aids the enemy or demoralizes the troops and citizens -- but the fact that protesting now occasions so much media support and coverage that the real issues become totally obscured.

These were the PRETENSES Dumbya used for going to war...period
And on an unrelated note, the use of silly names for world leaders does nothing to make one's remarks appear more intelligent, valid or encourage further civilized discourse. Rather, these "clever" little nicknames tend to have the opposite effect ...
 
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