1851 Navy & beginner

[1861]

Cowboy action shooting is popular in some corners of Europe and some participants use cap and ball revolvers because their laws make owning cartridge guns more difficult. You might run a search for SASS affiliated clubs in your part of the world.

Nope, no such clubs here. They probably have that in Italy and Germany. I'm not interested in "cowboy action shooting", I'm interested in American Civil War and in revolvers from that era +/- 10 years. I plan to have 3 or 4, as a display pieces in a first place, I probably won't use them much for shooting - but who knows?

 

[BCRider]

In the end realistically it matters little how we hold the guns for basic target shooting. But I might as well mention that my primary use of the pairs of cap and ball revolvers is for cowboy action shooting. I found that the pinky under style of holding aided me with keeping my hand on the grips at the right height. And if the kick of the .44's I prefer did move the guns in my hold that the pinky under came in useful for lifting the gun back up.

Originally I fought this and kept trying to have my hand up high enough that I had at least half a finger's width for my pinky. But that caused problems with the gun pulling and patterning to the side and also made the guns more difficult to shift back to their proper spot if they did roll back in my grip.

But in the end for slow fire target work it won't really matter if you use the pinky under or hold so your pinky sits on the edge of the heel. But I'll just mention again that I did run into an issue of the gun pulling to the side strongly when my grip was too high up on the back strap of the frame. If you find that happening to you when you shoot try shifting your hand down lower. For me the "sweet spot" where the "hoglegs" point and shoot naturally came when the web of my hand crossed the mid point of the turn at the top of the back strap. And for me that left my pinky no where to go except under the heel.

Try it both ways once you get to the range.

 

[1861]

1861, you are over thinking this!

You know what J-Bar, you're right. I'm like that with everything, I spend most of my time reading and thinking about everything. So just bear with me please

 

[drobs]

A little better link to J-Bar's excellent video:

I have both long and short grips. I shoot a pair of Pietta 1860 Army Colts with the longer grips (try one - you'll like it) and an Uberti 1873 single action 357 magnum /38 special revolver which has the same short grip as the 1851. A .36 caliber Pietta 1851 Navy is on my list to buy.

Regarding Pietta Open Top Colts. Here's some reading for you on tuning them. I find fitting the bolt to the cylinder locking notches helps significantly:
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_One.pdf
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_Two.pdf

Cap Jam Fix:
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/colt_cap_and_ball.pdf

And some videos on tuning:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kchzuK0L7_Y
Recommend you invest in a set of Gunsmith screw drivers. Here's a set I bought from Cabela's:
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Grace-USA-Gun-Care-Screwdriver-Set/739938.uts

Shooting these is a blast.

 

[expat_alaska]

1861, I probably should have posted a couple of images of the different Pietta grip styles for you.

There is quite a difference. Please note the curvatures in the backstraps and the trigger guards.

All are .36 caliber.

The Pietta pre-2015 "tail" style: 1851 Navy Second Model .36 (date code [CM] 2014).



The Pietta 2015 and later style: Leech and Rigdon .36 (date code [CN] 2015).



You won't find either of these pistols in the Pietta catalog because Pietta did not offer them. They are only possible with parts swapping from different models. Smooth cylinder and part octagon/part round barrel from a now discontinued Pietta Griswold and Gunnison.



The squareback trigger guard obtained from VTI back when pre-2015 parts were available.

Since ~2000 all Pietta pistols are CNC machined so parts swaps are easy with very little fitting.

What is the manufacture code on the right side of the frame on your pistol?

Thanks for putting up with a 65-year-old man's questions.

Jim

 

[expat_alaska]

There is a French site that I somewhat frequent, but since my knowledge of French is limited to "Oui, Madamoiselle", even the Google translator is not of much help. One of the moderators there is Ringo, and he speaks English as well as you, and you both are probably more proficient than I. They may be able to help you with procuring parts.

http://repliquesoldwest.superforum.fr/forum

Have a good evening and good luck, sir.

Jim

 

[kBob]

1861,

My bad. Since you mentioned getting the gun from France and praised French gun laws I assumed you were French.

Again back in the 1970's I met a number of French Military folks that spoke excellent English. One of them was however a cheat as we was a former Legionare from Texas that had gone over to the French Army after his six years in the Legion.

As odd as it may sound If I were someplace like say Ukraine or another bit of the old Soviet Empire I might contact the American National Rifle Association to find out if you can get the text book for their Basic Black Powder Pistol and Revolver Safety Course. I might also
ask them if they are aware of any BP clubs or groups within a day on the train of you.

Good luck with the revolver.

-kBob

 

[whughett]

With no disrespect intended, a typical forum response. Pages of advice, procedure and technical facts. All relevant if not confusing. 1861 your never going to know the tool until you've spent a few hours handling it and sent numerous rounds down range. Shoot it enough and it will find its place in your hand.

 

[1861]

Here's some reading for you on tuning them

Thanks drobs / George Maddox. If I can use them just the way they are, I don't want to go so far as to tune them (I'm not even sure what exactly I would be doing). If I'll have to tune them, I'd like to find some professional who would do that for me, I don't have any knowledge or skill or tools to do that. But HOW will I know that they require tuning?

 

[1861]

The squareback trigger guard obtained from VTI back when pre-2015 parts were available.

Since ~2000 all Pietta pistols are CNC machined so parts swaps are easy with very little fitting.

What is the manufacture code on the right side of the frame on your pistol?

Thanks for putting up with a 65-year-old man's questions.

Jim

Thank YOU Jim. I adore that squareback trigger guard, I've decided weeks ago that I'll get that sooner or later and install on my revolver.

Code on the right side: CP CIP PN - what does it mean?

The wood of my grip looks like the wood on the first photo that you've posted above. But mine is not shiny, why? My wood is matte, and I'd prefer more a shiny wood like I see on many of the photos around web.

 

[1861]

There is a French site that I somewhat frequent, but since my knowledge of French is limited to "Oui, Madamoiselle", even the Google translator is not of much help. One of the moderators there is Ringo, and he speaks English as well as you, and you both are probably more proficient than I. They may be able to help you with procuring parts.

http://repliquesoldwest.superforum.fr/forum

Have a good evening and good luck, sir.

Jim

Thanks Jim, if all else fails, I'll try just that. Good to know that.

 

[J-Bar]

But HOW will I know that they require tuning?

If they don't fire each time you want them to fire;
If you are getting frequent jams from spent cap fragments catching under the cylinder, hammer, or down inside the action;
If you see a lot of scratching and metal damage on the sides of the hammer from poor fit;
If you see damage to the edges of the cylinder notches or a deep scratch on the cylinder between the notches caused by poor bolt timing;
If the trigger pull is excessively hard;

...those are some of the things that will benefit from tuning. You can research how to do it yourself with articles you can find on the internet. It just takes a bit of patience and some simple tools. Certainly an experienced gunsmith can do the tuning faster, but in your area, you may have to become "the gunsmith!"

Oh, by the way, don't dry fire this revolver. You will damage the nipples if you don't have a cap on them.

 

[1861]

don't dry fire this revolver. You will damage the nipples if you don't have a cap on them.

NOW you're telling me this. Great. Since I got it yesterday, I dryfired some 20 times. Should I be worried? Are those nipples REALLY that fragile? Has anyone managed to damage them that way? Good thing you warned me about it. THANK YOU!

 

[J-Bar]

NOW you're telling me this. Great. Since I got it yesterday, I dryfired some 20 times. Should I be worried? Are those nipples REALLY that fragile? Has anyone managed to damage them that way? Good thing you warned me about it. THANK YOU!

Try popping some caps with it. If the caps ignite, then you are probably OK. Also check the hammer face to make sure it looks normal. 20 cycles probably did not do significant damage; 200 cycles might.

Your new gun should have come with an owner's manual. Please take the time to read it. If you did not get one with the gun, here is a link to an online copy:

https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/media/site/pietta_black_powder_manual.pdf

 

[1861]

I think I've read somewhere a week ago that there are some nipples of better quality, that I can unscrew the original ones and put those better ones instead, they werent black, but chrome-like. Are there some differences in quality of nipples and if yes - in which way exactly those differences manifest?

 

[1861]

Try popping some caps with it. If the caps ignite, then you are probably OK. Also check the hammer face to make sure it looks normal. 20 cycles probably did not do significant damage; 200 cycles might.

Your new gun should have come with an owner's manual. Please take the time to read it. If you did not get one with the gun, here is a link to an online copy:

https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/media/site/pietta_black_powder_manual.pdf

Thanks! Sure it came with manual, and with beautiful large Pietta catalog. And it's all in two languages: Italian (cause it's made in Italy) and French (cause it was intended from French market). Since I don't know these languages, manual is usesless to me, but the catalog is still beautiful.
I don't have caps. I have yet to order caps, powder, balls, everything.
Checked the hammer face, I'm no expert, but it looks normal to me.

 

[Mizar]

I have yet to order caps, powder, balls, everything.

Hello 1861. It will be a good idea to check first with your local laws before ordering caps and powder. In many places in Europe black powder is labeled as explosive and therefore heavily regulated. Caps also might be problematic for mail delivery. BTW, I have most positive experience with this site: http://www.westernguns.fr/ Although the site is only in French, the owner speaks English very well and he is quite helpful. If you still want the 1860 style frame and grips you might give him a call - he does not list such parts for sale, but who knows... And yes, don't dry fire this revolver - you will ruin the nipples and the hammer. If you so wish to dry fire it, remove the nipples first.

 

[1861]

Thanks Mizar, I exchanged emails with westernguns.fr already, they are high on my list of French sites with whom I might do business. A few weeks ago I sent desperate email to Pietta factory, begging them to help me obtain 1851 Navy. Their reply was so short and simple - they just told me: "Contact some of our French distributors".

 

[expat_alaska]

Thank YOU Jim. I adore that squareback trigger guard, I've decided weeks ago that I'll get that sooner or later and install on my revolver.

Code on the right side: CP CIP PN - what does it mean?

The wood of my grip looks like the wood on the first photo that you've posted above. But mine is not shiny, why? My wood is matte, and I'd prefer more a shiny wood like I see on many of the photos around web.

Well, good luck in acquiring a squareback TG. You will search long and hard. I wish you luck and cannot direct you to one.

The date code CP is 2016 manufacture. The other 2 marks are Italian proof marks. If you really want a squareback TG just make sure it will fit your grip configuration before you buy it. I don't know of any manufacturer or parts purveyor offering one as of present. Sorry.

The wood on my Second Model is shiny because I refinished it with Birchwood Casey's Tru-Oil. I don't know if it is available to you in Europe. After an application of it, it takes nearly a week to cure and then you can take off the rough edges with #0000 steel wool and then rub it with a clean cotton cloth.

As a newbie you are learning very quickly. Kudos! Good luck with your endeavors.

Jim

 

[J-Bar]

This is a good forum to visit. The participants are knowledgable and eager to help. Read through the topics in the first (pinned) thread in the forum, there is a wealth of information in there.

Black Powder Essentials
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/black-powder-essentials.238769/

The nipples supplied by the factory in your revolver will work. Other brands of nipples like Treso, Ampco, and Slix-Shot have smaller flash holes (the little hole inside next to the powder) which reduces the amount of gas flowing backwards through the nipple. This helps to reduce jams from cap fragments being blown backwards into the gun's mechanism. Shoot your gun as it is for a while. With moderate powder charges, you may find it acceptable as it is. Those of us who compete with these guns try to do everything we can to eliminate problems so most competitors change out the factory nipples.

If you can purchase real black powder you will find it ignites more reliably than many of the substitute powders because it has a lower ignition temperature. Again, I don't know what brands are available to you. Like anything else, good quality powder is probably going to cost a bit more than lower quality powder.

Good luck with your adventure!

 

[Mizar]

The original Pietta grips are varnished (lacquered) with some sort of polyurethane finish. You can easily polish it with some whitening toothpaste (the old style abrasive one) that is spread thin on some cotton, or leather piece and left to dry. By the way, there are some other countries in Europe that can ship more or less freely black powder muzzle loading firearms and parts abroad - UK and Germany comes in mind first. Here are some good links for parts, both OEM and aftermarket, and all sorts of goodies:
http://www.henrykrank.com/index.php?main_page=index UK based, expensive, but has quite the assortment.
http://stifters-gunflints.de/shop/main.php Based in Germany, lots of aftermarket accessorizes, they offer some very good aftermarket nipples - both Ampco alloy ones (like Tresso) and stainless steel (like Track of the Wolf ones): http://stifters-gunflints.de/shop/d...lstahlpiston_M6x0_75_Revolver__NEU.php&v=n174

 

[1861]

This is sold here localy: POW-EX Made in GERMANY by WANO.
In my book, everything labeled "Made in Germany" is of excellent quality. Half of kilogram of this powder costs exactly the same as 1 kilogram of VESUVIT LC black powder made in Czech Republic. I'm not saying that Czech powder is no good, I have no idea, but there is probably a reason why German stuff is twice expensive.
Questions now arise:
1) Is POW-EX good for my Pietta 1851 Navy?
2) Which one: http://www.lhs-germany.de/en/powder/black-powder/wano-pow-ex/ - Fg, FFg, FFFg, FFFFg - what exactly is the difference? BCRider posted yesterday: "buy some 3fg or fffg". If he's right, and I don't have a reason to doubt him, that would mean that I could get here localy exactly what he recommended.

The fact that this German FFFg is being sold here does not automatically mean that I'll be able to simply buy it. Maybe, but I have to check with that shop do I have to obtain some permission from police first.

 

[1861]

there are some other countries in Europe that can ship more or less freely black powder muzzle loading firearms and parts abroad - UK and Germany comes in mind first

Before Pietta told me to ask French, I contacted some distributors / web-shops from the UK, Germany and Poland - and they all replied that they don't and can't ship internationally. I know that there's one web-shop in Spain which ships internationally (but they admit buyers have to wait at least 2 months!), now you mentioned a couple more shops. But these shops ask first from international buyers to send them police permission to obtain black powder firearms. French shops don't ask that, they have a different law.

 

[rodwha]

4F is generally for flash pans and very small calibers/powder charges.

3F is generally for pistols as well as rifles up to around .50 caliber, though some people use it in larger calibers as well.

2F is generally used for .50 cal rifles and larger. Some like to use it in the Colt Walker pistols to reduce pressures.

I'm not that knowledgeable on 1F use. I know some like to load cartridges with this or 1 1/2F. And some like to load larger shotguns with it as well.

The smaller the number the faster it burns and creates pressure.

4F was used in some of the paper cartridges for these pistols (Hazards Pistol Powder) during our Civil War. However the powder charge was reduced. This is frowned upon as it can become very dangerous if not done properly.

 

[rodwha]

That's new to me. Before Pietta told me to ask French, I contacted some distributors / web-shops from the UK, Germany and Poland - and they all replied that they don't and can't ship internationally. Thanks, that could be useful!

If you are near Hungary there are BP shooters there. A fellow who participates in shooting matches makes excellent videos. He goes by the name capandball.