1851 Navy & beginner

[Mizar]

1861, I put those links as a source for parts - my bad, I should have explained myself more clearly. I cannot guarantee you, that those vendors will sell you a cap & ball firearm. I was referring to UK and Germany, because some friends of mine had bought muzzle loading firearms from those countries in the past without problems. For instance, a friend of mine bought many original and replica black powder firearms from UK auction houses and they did not require any license, except an ID card copy - they told him that as in my country a license was not required, they can ship them without a problem. But I think, that when it comes to acquire a new muzzle loader (or cap & ball), sticking with French dealers is the best way to go - in general, they offer some of the lowest prices that I could find in all of the EU based web-sites.

 

[1861]

No problem Mizar, all info is useful, thanks for your help.

 

[1861]

Which balls?

.375 BALLEUROPE - http://www.westernguns.fr/chargemen...-poudre-noire/196-balle-ronde-calibre-36.html - 1 BALL = 0,08 EUR

.375 H&N SPORT - https://www.armurerie-lavaux.com/article/Sachet-de-200-Balles-HN-375gr-Cal.36.html - 1 BALL = 0,13 EUR

.375 HORNADY - http://www.toro-distribution.com/plombs-hornady-calibre-36-x100-a8408.html - 1 BALL = 0,20 EUR

.375 PEDERSOLI - http://www.westernguns.fr/chargemen...-boite-de-100-balles-rondes-diametre-375.html - 1 BALL = 0,23 EUR

.362 PEDERSOLI - http://www.westernguns.fr/chargemen...-boite-de-100-balles-rondes-diametre-362.html - 1 BALL = 0,24 EUR

.373 PEDERSOLI - http://www.westernguns.fr/chargemen...-boite-de-100-balles-rondes-diametre-373.html - 1 BALL = 0,25 EUR

So that's what I can get. Pedersoli is much more expensive, H&N Sport and Hornady prices are somewhere in the middle, Balleurope is extremely cheap. What's the difference? Quality? In which way exactly?
Thanks in advance!

 

[1861]

Here are some good links for parts, both OEM and aftermarket, and all sorts of goodies:
http://www.henrykrank.com/index.php?main_page=index UK based, expensive, but has quite the assortment.

I remember now - that British HENRY KRANK is the first distributer of them all which I've contacted, some 3 weeks ago. Their reply was very quick and short - they don't ship outside the UK.

 

[1861]

I've read that 1851 and 1861 Navy are the best balanced revolvers ever produced and that it's easy to develop point-shooting instinct using them. What does that mean? Thanks.

 

[Jim K]

If all else fails, it should be easy to remove the rear strap and screw or solder a piece of brass to the existing bottom strap, changing the screw and screw hole as needed. Then the bottom of the wood grip can be sanded flat and a couple of pieces of walnut glued on to bring the wood grip down to fit the new grip strap. With care (and maybe some practice on a junk piece of brass and a piece of scrap wood) the job can be made to look like it is original.

(Depending on the law, the above could be illegal if there is a butt serial number that will be covered, but that is usually not a problem since the serial number on the frame is still visible.)

Jim

 

[J-Bar]

Balls:

I would not shoot a ball smaller than .375 inches diameter. Smaller balls may not seat into the chamber firmly enough to prevent loosening under recoil. My only personal experience with the brands in your list was with the Hornady .375 and it works fine. I would buy the cheapest pure lead .375 ball available. I personally prefer a .380 pure lead ball, but I don't know if you have those available.

Balance:

A subjective subject. The long barrels on the 1851 and 1861 give the revolver a muzzle-heavy feel. To me it feels like the muzzle is pulling itself towards the target. In contrast, a revolver with a short barrel and most of the weight in the butt feels more difficult to aim. But you will have to make up your own mind on that.

Powder size:

2F (FFG) or 3F (FFFG) will work fine. I normally use 2F in my percussion revolvers as well as cartridges and shotshells for competition. I would not use 4F; it is for flintlock priming pans. 1F is very coarse and would probably ignite, but would create more fouling residue.

 

[J-Bar]

Continuing...

Caps:

Remington #10 are my preference, and many agree that these caps stay on most nipples better than other brands.

If Remington #10 are not available to you, then you are going to have to experiment. Some shooters pinch an oversized cap slightly to get it to stay on the nipple. Try several brands and see which works best for you.

If you charge your chambers with more than 20 grains of powder you are likely to start experiencing more cap jams. More powder creates more pressure, and more pressure increases gas blowback through the nipples. It can be fun to shoot a heavy powder charge, just be prepared for the consequences.

 

[rodwha]

RWS1075 caps are likely more available there is think.

 

[1861]

Thanks J-Bar for recommending me Remington #10. I've seen before that others recommed Remington caps too. What exactly is on the inner side of the caps that ignites?

About buying black powder here's what I've just found out. In my country I can buy it legaly if I have a document from the police stating that I have registered a black powder firearm. Registration of my revolver is in progress (I'm obliged to report it inside 8 days since delivery), police will finish the process of registration in 2 weeks. But the black powder CAN'T be mailed. It can be bought only in person. I don't know will those French shops ship black powder or not, I have yet to check that. But if I can find it localy, I'll buy it here.

Anyone knows about that German POW-EX powder by WANO from previous page? I asked the local seller why it costs twice as much as the Czech powder, he only replied that it's of higher quality. They will have black powder here in my city (in shop for hunting rifles and gear) in about 10 days. They don't know which brand they'll get, it could be POW-EX.

 

[Mizar]

Anyone knows about that German POW-EX powder by WANO from previous page?

Wano makes several types of black powder, they are known in the US with the Schuetzen and Wano-P brands. I have not shot this brand, but according to almost anyone those last two powders are good, solid performers. So I suppose that Pow-Ex would not be an exception. I think that you will get more opinions about that powder in some European forum.
One advise from me - until you test your revolver and make the necessary tune ups, do not just fall to the most expensive powder, balls and etc. There is little point in that. After all, black powder & balls are a consumable - even if you don't like the Czech powder, it will get shot and you will need more!

 

[BCRider]

I've read that 1851 and 1861 Navy are the best balanced revolvers ever produced and that it's easy to develop point-shooting instinct using them. What does that mean? Thanks.

To me that means that when I pick up a gun it fits easily and naturally into my grip in a way that it lines up with my hand and forearm without needing any sort of a strong angle in my wrist.

I hate to sound like a broken record on this but back when I thought I needed a high grip position similar to my semi autos and modern revolvers I found that this style of grip gave me anything BUT a nice natural grip and natural pointing. It wasn't until I allowed my hand to drop down to where the web of my hand was on the turn of the back strap and push the pinky off the bottom that I learned that these guns have a nice naturally easy pointing ability. So before you go and cut or add anything or work at finding oversize grips I strongly suggest you simply get out and shoot the gun and figure out all this for yourself.

There is still a lot of interest in Europe and over here for shooting very accurately with black powder. I'm sure this has led to companies providing us with powder that is ground more evenly and treated with more care in formulating it to ensure even burning and consistency. And that would be why it costs more. But black powder is still "just" black powder and the cheaper stuff will do just fine for casual target shooting. Same with the balls. As long as they are made from the proper soft lead (and ALL round ball should be soft lead unless it is buck shot for shotguns) they'll be fine in your gun.

At some point if you start finding out that YOU can hold really nice tight groupings for your shots then there might be some excuse for going out of your way to buy better quality powder and better made round ball that is swage formed then rolled to remove any markings and made more consistent for size. But the reality is that for the vast majority of us the shooter's steadiness and technique will be the limiting factor for our achieved consistency and group size. And for those of us with "old guy eyes" and "old guy nerves" the less costly powder options are just fine. Using this basic powder and my own home cast round ball I found that my 1860's can both shoot groups for me that are the same size as I can manage with my smokeless Smith&Wesson revolvers. As in around 10 to 12cm at 20 meters distance on a good day and with good lighting and a good target that really stands out to my eyes. Mostly I figure on groups more around the 20cm size at that distance if everything isn't dead on perfect for the day.... and I've had de-caf

And as mentioned above lead and powder are consumables. You'll soon use up the first purchases of each. And by that time you'll have a better idea of how accurate you and the gun can be and that will suggest the next step. The first job, after the first few smiles and first few targets at simply shooting your new toy, will be to find the weight/volume of charge which provides you with the best accuracy. You'll want to shoot the gun with a variety from a light 12 or 15gns up to how much the chambers will hold while still allowing the ball to seat so it is below the front face. Somewhere in that range should be a sweet spot that produces the smallest group you can get. But before that you need to learn how to just be steady and release the ball as smoothly as you can. If you snatch at the trigger or develop a flinch from all the noise and smoke then you'll never need to worry about getting to testing the charge for best accuracy. Shooting well is a chain of factors. And the first link in that chain that needs to be tuned is the shooter themself. Only after that is it even worth bothering with playing with the powder charge volume and possibly with fillers over the powder.

So a good question to close out this reply is "have you shot handguns much at all or will this your first?".

 

[rodwha]

I'm not familiar with the .36 cal or Colt models, but at some point the powder charge becomes too small for the plunger/ram to press the ball into the powder (you cannot have an air gap). Many will use some sort of filler or felt wad(s) to do this. Others will need to chime in on where this is (~18 grns?).

 

[1861]

BCRIder - I never even saw a real handgun until 3 days ago - EXCEPT IN WAR MUSEUMS IN ENGLAND. I appreciate your elaborate reply.

Lead has toxic characteristics. If balls are kept in well-closed plastic box, in some drawer in a bedroom closet, is that enough to ensure there'll be no health risks?

you cannot have an air gap

I read that everywhere. But I don't understand what and why would a very small air gap cause?

 

[Mizar]

Inconsistent burning, therefore inconsistent projectile speed, therefore shots all over the target. It's simple - press your charges, nothing bad is going to happen.

 

[expat_alaska]

BCRIder - I never even saw a real handgun live until 3 days ago.

1861, I have an idea. Send me your email address. Mine is [email protected] .

Old retired guys like me have lots of time on our hands.

 

[1861]

In French languge for "nipples" (as part of cylinder) they say "chimneys". I like that term better.

expat_alaska, I've sent you email.

What exactly is on the inner side of the caps that ignites?

 

[1861]

What are PROPELLENT CHARGES? http://www.toro-distribution.com/charge-poudre-c36-x48-a8398.html

Translation from French: "Black powder charge for caliber 36 of the VECTAN brand. Load box propellants holding 48 compressed loads and 48 stuffed felts."

 

[kBob]

Some European countries decades ago used to not like loose BP and "cans" of loose BP took a special license. On the other hand pre measured and pressed into a cylinder filling pellet made of BP held together with something like paper glue were not controlled. When a pellet was placed in the chamber of a cylinder and a ball compressed down on it, it basically shattered into loose powder. I believe the felt in the ad is an over powder wad such as many use in the US with loose powder.

I once knew Germans that did not have a weapons card for loose powder that would buy the pellets.....packed in nice cartridge boxes like metallic ammo of 50 per box..... and crush the powder for use in guns other than .36 and .44 Italian reproduction revolvers as loose powder.

I used such pellets in a 1851 .36 Navy repro in Germany on occasion and found them convenient, but those had no over powder wads and I used cooking grease over the balls for a real mess.

-kBob

 

[kBob]

You know I did not notice if anyone mentioned it.....and I am too lazy to go back and look, but......

You have looked over the topic "Black Powder Essentials" that is the first thing up on the THR BP board everytime you load it, haven't you?

A whole lot of good information there absolutely free and available each time you come here.

-kBob

 

[1861]

Thanks Bob.
I watched some of these videos - https://www.youtube.com/user/duelist1954 - and I've read https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/so-you-want-a-cap-and-ball-revolver.223515/ before I registered here. Learned a LOT.
But some of my questions are so specific that I doubt that "Black Powder Essentials" covers them, like "What are PROPELLENT CHARGES" or "What exactly is on the inner side of the caps that ignites?" or why that German brand of powder costs two times more than that Czech brand... and so on.
Judging from the titles of topics in "Black Powder Essentials", many of them are not for me, at least not at this stage, where I'm still dealing with very basics.

But this is exactly what I've been researching during the last hour: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/10-or-11-caps-whats-the-difference.481947/

 

[1861]

I watched this:

...and I've found this: ...and this I think is related to it: #10 or #11 caps? What's the difference?

...and from that it seems to me that Remington No.10 would probably be the best, right? J-Bar recommended it, many others too.

However, right now I can't get Remington No. 10, or at least I didn't find where to obtain it yet. Those French web-shops either don't sell it or it's currently out of stock.

Right now I could get these 7:





What would be the difference between 1075 and 1075 Plus? Until I'm able to get Remington No.10, which one to order? CCI No.10? Is longer (and I mean longer, not wider) cap better than shorter? THANKS

 

[rodwha]

BCRIder - I never even saw a real handgun live until 3 days ago. I appreciate your elaborate reply.

Lead has toxic characteristics. If balls are kept in well-closed plastic box, in some drawer in a bedroom closet, is that enough to ensure there'll be no health risks?


I read that everywhere. But I don't understand what and why would a very small air gap cause?

There's no real danger in dealing with cast lead projectiles. Just don't chew on them.

Now casting them yourself would require you to be in a well ventilated space.

A very small air space may not create an issue. I'm not sure how large it needs to be. Black powder, from what I've read, seems to do better with compression. But a large air gap (and large powder charge?) can burst the barrel of a muzzleloader. Can't say I've read of this happening with a pistol but the chamber walls sure are much thinner than a muzzleloader.

Were it me I'd just not use less than 20 grns of powder until I figured out just how little I can get away with. Using a felt wad below the projectile would certainly ensure this. Again I'm not familiar with how little a .36 can take before a projectile won't reach the powder. Quite frankly I don't know on either of my .44 cals either as I hunt with mine and won't use an anemic target load. Instead I found the more accurate load using a useful amount of powder which is something close to 80% capacity.

 

[rodwha]

I've tried CCI #11 Magnums on my guns and often found them requiring two strikes to ignite. The Rem #11's needed to be pinched. The Rem #10's worked flawlessly on both guns.

My Ruger has replacement nipples that claim to be sized for CCI #11 standard (non magnums). I can't seem to find these. They may work well in place of Rem #10's.

I've not heard of complaints (other than cost) of the RWS 1075's and have never heard of the others.

I'm going to guess that the 1075 Plus is a more powerful (magnum) cap.

Were I in your shoes I'd either buy the CCI #11's or 1075's. Which ever was cheaper or in a larger stock (I'd think the German caps would find their way to you more often and likely be cheaper).

 

[1861]

I'd just not use less than 20 grns of powder until I figured out just how little I can get away with

The official Pietta Instruction and Safety Manual for .36 revolver, .375" ball, FFFG:
SUGGESTED GRAINS: 9-12
THE MAXIMUM GRAINS OF BLACK POWDER: 22