243 VS 7mm 08

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243s and 7mm-08s both do the trick with some margin of error on all deer sized game, and while I love my 7mm-08 I would advise anyone looking for a smaller then 30-06 to consider a 6.5mm, my 6.5x55 has an impressive track on deer and hogs and has recoil between the 243 and 7mm-08. The 6.5x55 is something of a handloaders cartridge though, if you want factory consider the 260 Rem or the impressive new 6.5 Creedmore which basically duplicate the performance of my handloads. With Ballistic Tips or SST you will be shocked at how hard that little 6.5mm pill hits even at range.
 
GooseGestapo, your results are way outside of mine! :) I've tagged some two dozen bucks via my .243. None travelled at all, once hit. One-shot kills except for one coup de grace. Almost, but not quite all, were neck shots. I use the Sierra 85-grain HPBT, which is definitely a blow-up bullet. So, neck shot or cross-body heart/lung shot. No angling shots.
 
I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a bullet to perform at 410 yards, but then again I never have hunted long range with a 243 either, only in the woods with 100gr Power Points. I have a 270 WSM with a purpose built long range hunting load (150gr SGK @3000fps) if I am going to be hunting anything past 300, not that my 6.5 and 7mm could not do the trick but the WSM will do it with more authority.
 
Either would work but if you're starting from scratch I think the 7mm-08 is the better option. I like the ability to use heavier bullets while still being about to go light if necessary. The 7mm-08 also has the edge at longer ranges.
 
7mm 08 does seem like more of an all around gun like 30-06 or 270 for animals up to elk without the recoil.
 
It would be the 7mm-08 for me. I've used both extensively (.243 and the '08).

It is my opinion that the '08 will serve you better under a wider variety of circumstances.


Best of luck with your choice.


Flint.
 
As far as flat shooters go there is little difference in the trajectory of most non-magnum bottleneck cartridges, a 100gr SGK 243 pushing 3050fps zeroed at 100 is hitting -24.8" at 400 yards, my 140gr SGK 7mm-08 is hitting -27.3" at the same distance so to call one "flat shooting" and the other old hat is simply silly. I posted a detailed comparison of light recoiling rifle hunting cartridges a few years ago, the 6.5x55, 260 Rem, 7mm-08, and 25-06 really shined, the 243 was middle of the road mostly due to it's low energy at range, the centerfire 22 cals did very poorly.
The 25-06 is another one to consider, while a modest performer on elk class game the combination of decent BC bullets, high impact speeds, light recoil, and reasonable bullet weights makes it a dramatic performer on deer/hog/black bear class game, it's reputation amongst people who actuality use it is very impressive especially when SGK, Ballistic Tips, or SST bullets are used.
 
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Own & Use Them Both

I own and have used them both and this is just my opinion, but
I would go with the 243 all day....EVERY DAY!!!!!

Bigger selection, variety and availability of factory ammo
All the 243 I have owned have been VERY accurate.
7mm-08.... NOT SO MUCH
 
back in the 70s when my dad was shooting coyotes for 85 apiece I am pretty sure that he would have picked a 243 over a slower round like 7-08. You tend not to mess around when a days wage is on the line. He actually used 6mm and 223. He said several times he knocked a coyote stem-windin' with a 22-250 but they got back up and ran but with 223 they never got back up.
 
I have thought about 270, but I am going to guess that the 270 recoil is pretty similar to 30-06. I would rather go with 270 or 30-06, but I am thinking about something with fairly moderate recoil that would be good for deer and the occasional black bear that I may come across deer hunting. I am not into predator hunting but if I did get into predator hunting, i am not going to be keeping the pelts because they are not worth keeping from coyotes in this part of the country. Coyotes are just mangy wild dogs.

I have thought about 260 and 6.5 Swedish. I have considered Tikka and Savage rifles due to accuracy and value. I do reload, but it is nice to be able to grab factory ammo if I'm in a bind.
 
dvdcrr said:
back in the 70s when my dad was shooting coyotes for 85 apiece I am pretty sure that he would have picked a 243 over a slower round like 7-08. You tend not to mess around when a days wage is on the line. He actually used 6mm and 223. He said several times he knocked a coyote stem-windin' with a 22-250 but they got back up and ran but with 223 they never got back up.
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I would agree that if we are talking factory ammo the 243 is superior on varmints, though not for the reason you listed, the 243 can be had in factory form with explosive varmint loads, where as nearly all 7mm-08 ammo is controlled expansion 140gr, suitable for deer/hogs but would probably punch straight through a small yote expending most of it's energy out the far side.
 
Recoil of .270 is definitely less than the .30/06. Not a lot, but noticeable.

The only difference in recoil between the .270 and 7mm08 is what is attributable to individual rifle.
My .270 weighs near 10lbs (MkX Mauser with Leupold Vari-X II 3x-9x Scope with Weaver bases/rings. The 7mm08 is a Remington Mod-7 with Leupold Vari-X III 2.5-8x and weighs 7.5lbs.
Neither are what I would call a "kicking" rifle.... just a "bump". The .243 is just a tad less.

Someone mentioned "flat shooting"? Indeed, the .257wbymag. Mine is a Vanguard with 24"bbl. It too weighs near 10lbs, but is 1/2moa accurate with 100gr bullet at 3,650fps (74.0gr RL25). It definitely trumps the .243.... In every way except for "availability" and potential for a "light" rifle. But then so does the .25/06 and .270, ect.
Since I built my .257Roberts in 1983 because of my "ambivalence" towards the .243, the .257mag further improves over the .243. But realistically, to me there is little to chose between the .270 and .257wby. I could "do" with either...
Sorry, I've just got a "bad taste in my mouth" regarding the .243...

irregardless, it still comes down to; shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.
put decent .243 bullet where it needs to be, it'll work. But even my .22-250 w/ 60gr bullet does too, and is even faster/flatter/ and in the case of MY rifles, more accurate...hence for ME; more-better....
 
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On the note of accuracy, I would concede that if you put the average 7mm-08 against the average 243 with whatever blue/green/gray box ammo you have laying around I do think the 243 would have the edge in accuracy since 7mms have historically had issues with inconsistent free bore, not sure if they have ever fixed that but my 7m-08 won't shoot anything out of a factory box under 3 MOA :( fortunately I don't hunt with factory junk and my handloads are shockingly accurate, so a non-issue for me and many others.
I thought about getting a 243 when I got my 7mm-08, but at the end of the day would I trade 30-40% more wounding on target and reliable penetration for an extra 80-100fps speed a 2" less drop a 500yds? Heck no. I still plan to add a 243 to the lineup eventually, but I highly doubt it will take the place of the 7mm-08 or 6.5x55 as my go to low recoil hunter.
 
This may be a topic for another thread, but I wouldn't be surprised if the 243 is more effective than its bigger brothers when using lead free (copper) bullets on deer. Two thoughts:

1) Copper bullets tend to open better at higher velocities.

2) Physics dictates that smaller objects tend to slow down (impart energy) at a rate greater than larger objects. Stated another way, a 308 copper bullet may blow through a thin deer before imparting its energy.

It should be possibe to test this hypotheses. If you knew the velocity of a 243 and 308 entering and exiting a slab of ballistic gelatin the same thickness as a deer you could calculate how much energy is dumped into the tissue. I'd do the experiment myself if I had a $20,000 high speed camera to play with.

With conventional (soft point) bullets it's more clear in my opinion. Those rarely exit a deer, so you can assume all the energy is dumped into the deer, in which case the bullet that started with more energy (308) imparted more energy into the deer than the bullet that started with less energy (243).
 
Corn Picker there is a few problems with your logic. You are talking about the energy dump theory and while there is some truth to that it has been debunked as the only wounding mechanism. Larger calibers tend to deliver wider PWC regardless of how much energy the small caliber dumps. Even if you stick to the energy only myth the 308 makes more energy at the muzzle and carries more energy downrange then the 6mm bore so even if some of it exits out the far side it most likely delivered more energy on target.
OK that is the theory part, in practice the 243 is still plenty enough for general deer hunting, but to suppose that it is MORE effective then a 308 win is a wild stretch. I can drive a 125gr Ballistic Tip to over 3,100fps out of a 308 without going overpressure, so it is shooting flatter, hitting faster, and carrying more energy then a comparable 100gr 243 load and the ballistic tip is sure to deliver the majority of that energy on target with a wider wound tract, what advantage does the 243 have at that point other then a small reduction in recoil?
 
Kachok said:
Corn Picker there is a few problems with your logic. You are talking about the energy dump theory and while there is some truth to that it has been debunked as the only wounding mechanism. Larger calibers tend to deliver wider PWC regardless of how much energy the small caliber dumps. Even if you stick to the energy only myth the 308 makes more energy at the muzzle and carries more energy downrange then the 6mm bore so even if some of it exits out the far side it most likely delivered more energy on target.
OK that is the theory part, in practice the 243 is still plenty enough for general deer hunting, but to suppose that it is MORE effective then a 308 win is a wild stretch. I can drive a 125gr Ballistic Tip to over 3,100fps out of a 308 without going overpressure, so it is shooting flatter, hitting faster, and carrying more energy then a comparable 100gr 243 load and the ballistic tip is sure to deliver the majority of that energy on target with a wider wound tract, what advantage does the 243 have at that point other then a small reduction in recoil?
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Comparing Hornady SST to Hornady SST, the 95 grain 6mm bullet has a BC of 0.355, while the 125 grain 7.62 bullet has a BC of 0.305. Assuming the 243 has a MV of 3185 (Hornady ammo), and assuming your MV of 3100 is correct, the 243 will:

Shoot slightly flatter (9.1 inches vs 9.7 inches at 300 yards) and have less wind drift.
Surpass the 308 in energy around 500 yards (the lighter for caliber bullet is of course going to slow down faster).

Honestly, the two are a lot closer than I expected before I ran the numbers, so I learned something new; I thought that the 308 would look a lot worse than it does with light (for 7.62mm) bullets. If anything, looking at the data makes me want to load the 308 with really light for caliber copper bullets. Plenty of velocity to open up, plenty of velocity for hydrostatic shock, and I don't care about wind drift and drop and such cause I don't shoot more than 150-200 yards at most. I would also expect a bullet with less sectional density to impart more energy as it entered an animal (0.230 for the 95 grain 6mm SST vs 0.185 for the 125 grain 7.62mm SST).
 
The copper bullet would be fine but I don't think the 125gr SST was designed to put up with 308 speeds, I am pretty sure it was designed for the 300 AAC much like the 123gr SST was designed for the Grendel and the 120gr SST was designed for the 6.8 SPC, I e-mailed them about that and they said 2,800fps was the upper limit of what they were designed to handle in the 6.5 anyway. The Ballistic Tip however was designed for impact speeds up to 3200fps with is the upper limit of what the 308 can push at the muzzle according to Nosler. BTW the Nosler also has a considerably higher BC of .366, down right respectable for a bullet that light, and putting them on even ground with the higher SD 243 cal bullets, hence the reason I used it for my comparison. Now to throw a real monkey wrench into the works, compare a 120gr Ballistic Tip out of a 7mm-08 and you trump everything except the 6.5mms. A 120gr has a BC of .417 better then the 6mm or 30 cals mentioned and it can push them in the 3,200fps range with a compressed load of Big Game (my favorite 7mm-08 powder) do the math on that and the 7mm-08 does not just compare favorably to the other members of the 08 family but actually runs neck and neck with the 25-06 for trajectory and retained velocity! The 260 does outperform the 7mm-08 at long range, but we are talking about well past normal hunting ranges using it's crazy low drag VLDs and A-MAX bullets. As of right now there is nothing a 243 can do to match that, yes there is the 105 A-MAX but it does not have the reputation for penetration like the 140gr 6.5 and 168gr 30 cal so it's use for hunting is limited, and the super long VLD simply will not stabalize out of a factory barrel you need a custom 1:8 to stabilize it.
 
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Arkansas Paul said:
He's hunting whitetails and black bear. Either will work just fine.

If he were going after grizzly and moose, obviously they wouldn't so much. I wouldn't use either of those for that job but obviously the 7mm would have the edge there because of the option of heavier bullet weights.

The fanboys of each cartridge can sing the praises all day long, but they're fooling themselves. For deer and black bear, it just don't matter.
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You got that right Paul.
Either one will do the job on deer and black bear
243 much more widely available
 
Abel said:
Barrel life is longer on the 7mm-08 vs the 243.
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Is thisREALLY a practical concern for the vast majority of hunters ????

Most hunters will NEVER shoot enough 243 rounds down the barrel
of their rifle to be concerned with barrel life.

That is a complete non issue in my opinion
 
Kachok,

I am curious as to where you come up with the 30%-40% more wounding on target with the 7-08 vs. the 243 ?????

Is this just your opinion or have their been validated test done on animals that
show this to be a true fact ?
 
More wounding vs. less wounding has pretty much got to be anecdotes from individuals. As above with the .243, one poster speaks of numerous problems. So I come along yakking about my two dozen kills which were basically DRT, one shot. I don't doubt him, but I know what I've done. :)

IOW, the plural of anecdote is NOT data.
 
kemper said:
Kachok,

I am curious as to where you come up with the 30%-40% more wounding on target with the 7-08 vs. the 243 ?????

Is this just your opinion or have their been validated test done on animals that
show this to be a true fact ?
Click to expand...
Let's look at all the measurable factors behind bullet wounding.
Frontal Area
.243" (6mm) diameter bullets = .0464
.284" (7mm) diameter bullets = .0633
36.4% more
Energy (handloads)
243= 2065 ft lbs
7mm-08=2705 ft lbs
31% more
Bullet weight
243 standard 100gr, max in factory barrel 105gr
7mm-08 standard 140gr, max in factory barrel 180g
40% and 71.4% more.
So no matter if you are a "energy dump" guy or a larger caliber worshiper, or even a weight is king fan the 7mm-08 has AT LEASED 30% more wounding potential and realistically total volume of PWC would probably be in the 35-45% range given the much higher weights, unfortunately few sources outside of the FBI ballistics lab measure PWC volume, everyone else is only interested in slow motion videos to sell bullets, all those show is the effect of the TWC which is only a part of the story.
I would be happy to post pics and measurements of the necropsy next time I go hunting, but it might take a while to form a reasonable sample size and I don't currently own a 243 sadly so I would have to borrow Robert's when I can. I do have experience with both and while I did not catalog all the data I can tell you the difference between the two is visible.
 
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