I see that as time goes on no new surplus models are coming to CMP. I am talking about neutered M16 or M14 or anything else. CMP s role is important, to ensure civilians can shoot. I know its illegal and the gov would rather see every excess rifle chopped than to end up in your hands or mine. But if we want a strong civilian capacity to shoot well and defend our country, a program like CMP needs new guns moving ahead decades into the future. I just wanted to spur thought on this as well as what might be done to ensure CMP or some such group has rifles for the public to train on forever.
2A and the CMP
- Thread starter dvdcrr
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The Government has no interest in seeing the CMP continue so why would they provide any new(er) firearms to the program? Best way to kill it off is to not supply it.
atblis
Member
From what I've heard the CMP say at shoots, they are not hanging their future on selling firearms. According to them, selling surplus arms is simply a means to an end.
ApacheCoTodd
member
I don't think CMP really has a "role".
The old Directorate of Civilian Marksmanship had a "role" and mandate. CMP - whom I appreciate and support - is merely a corporation. As such, they'll morph to survive... Or not.
This current expansion to embrace new builders and current owners through their armorer's training is a great direction.
One venue they may pursue is as arbiters of, or a channel for, the support of continued expansion of firearms in the Curio & Relic world.
As long as those 10s/100s of thousands of surplus US arms are not destroyed overseas, there's always hope for a sane re-visit of their importation. Only a matter of Depts of State/Commerce, Congress and the President opening their minds. Stranger things have happened.
Todd.
The old Directorate of Civilian Marksmanship had a "role" and mandate. CMP - whom I appreciate and support - is merely a corporation. As such, they'll morph to survive... Or not.
This current expansion to embrace new builders and current owners through their armorer's training is a great direction.
One venue they may pursue is as arbiters of, or a channel for, the support of continued expansion of firearms in the Curio & Relic world.
As long as those 10s/100s of thousands of surplus US arms are not destroyed overseas, there's always hope for a sane re-visit of their importation. Only a matter of Depts of State/Commerce, Congress and the President opening their minds. Stranger things have happened.
Todd.
atblis
Member
The future of the CMP
http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/03/talladega_marksmanship_park_co.html
http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/03/talladega_marksmanship_park_co.html
medalguy
Member
CMP may sell targets and the like in the future, but there's no way they will ever be able to sell M14s or M16s. Once a machine gun always a machine gun is the mantra of BATFE. Even if CMP were to get hold of some M14s and grind off the fun lug, they still couldn't be able to sell them. And the M16 has no way to neuter it at all. USGI ammo is no longer being made available to CMP except in rare circumstances, so there's the future for you. Sad to say, CMP will be the sponsor for the national matches but that's about it.
HorseSoldier
Member
^^^^
This. Every US .mil issued service rifle starting with the M14 has been classified as an MG by the ATF, and so unless the law changes none of those will ever see light of day in a CMP store.
I suppose stuff like mil-surp M24s and the like could be sold.
Apparently they also cannot sell handguns under their charter or something, so no 1911s or M9s.
This. Every US .mil issued service rifle starting with the M14 has been classified as an MG by the ATF, and so unless the law changes none of those will ever see light of day in a CMP store.
I suppose stuff like mil-surp M24s and the like could be sold.
Apparently they also cannot sell handguns under their charter or something, so no 1911s or M9s.
cluttonfred
Member
I wouldn't play "Taps" for the CMP just yet as there are still more WWII surplus weapons out there in the world. No, they are never going to be selling surplus M14/M16/M4s. Did anyone really think they would? But I could see them moving on to the AR-15 platform for the educational, training and competitions aspects of what they do. There is nothing to prevent them from defining a "G.I. spec" AR15 category to simulate a semi-auto service issue M16, for example. Lots of manufacturers could offer CMP-blessed models whether CMP actually sells them or not. Plus, I bet that 50 years from now the kids will look at any rifle with iron sights the way we looked at Trapdoor Springfields. ;-)
President Clinton pushed for the scrapping of M14's and had the contractor running 24/7 in the day, hundreds of thousands of M14's and 1911's were destroyed never to be seen again.
That's why the few M14's we could get our hands on during one stage of the war in Afghanistan were taken from color guards and the National Guard. Those won't likely be reissued since their rework and we will lose those, too.
The CMP couldn't sell them if they wanted to - not because of the MG issue, because THEY NO LONGER EXIST IN LARGE QUANTITIES. They were destroyed.
I've been saying it for years - Goodbye, CMP. The Administrations are doing everything they can to destroy it, President Clinton had it shut down at one point which is why it's now the CMP, not the DCM. Congress brought it back to life, but in that duration the grinding mills weren't turning slowly - they were on three shifts.
Just think, all those Union Switch and Railway 1911's ground up for scrap.
In a very large sense, the only ones left are overseas, and we aren't bringing them back, either. The current Administration refused to accept the guns from Korea so we now have a precedent and the next Administration will likely concede the issue because Presidents tend to follow what their predecessors decided. Ask the current President why he hasn't shut down GTMO after all the campaign promises? It's been 6 years, nada.
Same with guns. Don't count on them even if Wayne Lapierre was elected.
And that is why the AR15 is the biggest selling rifle in America today. We can't get them any other way.
That's why the few M14's we could get our hands on during one stage of the war in Afghanistan were taken from color guards and the National Guard. Those won't likely be reissued since their rework and we will lose those, too.
The CMP couldn't sell them if they wanted to - not because of the MG issue, because THEY NO LONGER EXIST IN LARGE QUANTITIES. They were destroyed.
I've been saying it for years - Goodbye, CMP. The Administrations are doing everything they can to destroy it, President Clinton had it shut down at one point which is why it's now the CMP, not the DCM. Congress brought it back to life, but in that duration the grinding mills weren't turning slowly - they were on three shifts.
Just think, all those Union Switch and Railway 1911's ground up for scrap.
In a very large sense, the only ones left are overseas, and we aren't bringing them back, either. The current Administration refused to accept the guns from Korea so we now have a precedent and the next Administration will likely concede the issue because Presidents tend to follow what their predecessors decided. Ask the current President why he hasn't shut down GTMO after all the campaign promises? It's been 6 years, nada.
Same with guns. Don't count on them even if Wayne Lapierre was elected.
And that is why the AR15 is the biggest selling rifle in America today. We can't get them any other way.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
We have lived in the golden age of military surplus firearms. I think everyone involved has known that there was an end to that age, coming soon. Once the eastern bloc countries finally ship the last bunkers full of Mosin-Nagant rifles over here, that will be about all she wrote for inexpensive surplus weapons, fresh in the cosmoline. With no wide need for all those former military cartridges, vast supplies of cheap ammo for them all will dry up as well. That is certainly sad.
But marksmanship/shooting is more popular than ever, and CMP will push ahead and evolve to be a huge part of that, even when they no longer have Garands to sell. Yeah, the business will change. But they've been reminding everyone for decades now that "CMP doesn't exist to sell rifles."
I absolutely DO see them jumping into the AR-15 Match & Service rifle pool in a big way, especially as that's what the winners shoot anyway. As long as there are service rifle matches, CMP is going to be active.
But marksmanship/shooting is more popular than ever, and CMP will push ahead and evolve to be a huge part of that, even when they no longer have Garands to sell. Yeah, the business will change. But they've been reminding everyone for decades now that "CMP doesn't exist to sell rifles."
I absolutely DO see them jumping into the AR-15 Match & Service rifle pool in a big way, especially as that's what the winners shoot anyway. As long as there are service rifle matches, CMP is going to be active.
Thermactor
member
- Joined
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- Messages
- 992
Agreed Sam
In this age of global conflict whatever weapons AND AMMO that may have been destined as surplus are now being diverted to conflict zones where it's easier to export them and they sell for more money.
So I think the sun has pretty much set on that stuff... a while ago.
In this age of global conflict whatever weapons AND AMMO that may have been destined as surplus are now being diverted to conflict zones where it's easier to export them and they sell for more money.
So I think the sun has pretty much set on that stuff... a while ago.
Yeah, I can see the CMP evolving as the number of US milsurps dries up. They will continue to sanction matches, and are slowly expanding the "regional games" locations. I've heard talk about an event in Michigan, and Talladega opens next year.
They seem to be pushing more gunsmithing services from their custom shop in Anniston to service the rifles they have sold in the past. Also selling the "CMP Special" Garands which use many aftermarket parts on top of the original receivers. Who knows how many receivers they have stashed away?
Ammo sales? I've heard that they still have several years of Greek HXP 30-06 left, and they are marketing commercially made ammo by Aguila, Hornady, and Creedmoor.
I have mixed emotions about the way they have conducted rifle sales in the past. They ramped up the number an individual could buy to 12 a year. I know that there were people who brought their wife, and maybe a few other relatives along, and maxed out year after year, flipping them at gun shows for a business. It that sense I wish they would have rationed them.
On the other hand, considering the political climate, they moved their stores of these historical firearms into the civilian market while they could. In that sense, saving them from the crusher.
Laphroaig
They seem to be pushing more gunsmithing services from their custom shop in Anniston to service the rifles they have sold in the past. Also selling the "CMP Special" Garands which use many aftermarket parts on top of the original receivers. Who knows how many receivers they have stashed away?
Ammo sales? I've heard that they still have several years of Greek HXP 30-06 left, and they are marketing commercially made ammo by Aguila, Hornady, and Creedmoor.
I have mixed emotions about the way they have conducted rifle sales in the past. They ramped up the number an individual could buy to 12 a year. I know that there were people who brought their wife, and maybe a few other relatives along, and maxed out year after year, flipping them at gun shows for a business. It that sense I wish they would have rationed them.
On the other hand, considering the political climate, they moved their stores of these historical firearms into the civilian market while they could. In that sense, saving them from the crusher.
Laphroaig
Since the Firearm (Machine Gun) is the lower, could the CMP (certainly not in the current administraton, but things could change) take out the lower and sell the rest as Rifle Kits?
Even if they removed the Fire Control Group too, it would be fine. (I'm not sure what parts in the FCG are different from the civilian version) The rest of the M-16/M-4 is/are just parts, right?
Even if they removed the Fire Control Group too, it would be fine. (I'm not sure what parts in the FCG are different from the civilian version) The rest of the M-16/M-4 is/are just parts, right?
Jim Watson
Member
Since the program was changed from the DCM government agency to the CMP "corporation" the emphasis changed. The DCM supported shooters and shooting. You were limited to what you could buy; in my youth one gun per model lifetime with an affidavit that it would not be resold.
The CMP is self supporting, they are (were) in the business of selling guns. They are fast working themselves out of a job. Purchase limitations were gradually relaxed.
Supporting anecdotes:
I remember when it was five Garands per NRA member. I know one wheeler dealer who signed up his family, each ordered five rifles for 25 in the house. He switched out parts and got several "correct" rifles with same make and vintage parts which he sold to collectors for a large profit, sold the mixed rifles for a small profit, and left himself with a free rifle to shoot and money in the bank.
I didn't get a cheap used Kimber 82 G because the guy ahead of me bought ALL the better examples in the rack at CMP South. So I got a new one.
I missed out on the Winchester M52 sale because my contact told me wrong on the date. By the time I went in four days later, they were gone. One investor was seen to walk up to the rack, wrap his arms around as many as he could carry, and haul them to the counter.
The CMP will have to "reinvent" itself to stay in operation. They are selling new .22 rifles, for example.
I hope the Talladega operation pans out, although I am sorry they could not find room for a 1000 yard range on 500 acres. There is not a publicly accessable Long Range facility in the state.
The CMP is self supporting, they are (were) in the business of selling guns. They are fast working themselves out of a job. Purchase limitations were gradually relaxed.
Supporting anecdotes:
I remember when it was five Garands per NRA member. I know one wheeler dealer who signed up his family, each ordered five rifles for 25 in the house. He switched out parts and got several "correct" rifles with same make and vintage parts which he sold to collectors for a large profit, sold the mixed rifles for a small profit, and left himself with a free rifle to shoot and money in the bank.
I didn't get a cheap used Kimber 82 G because the guy ahead of me bought ALL the better examples in the rack at CMP South. So I got a new one.
I missed out on the Winchester M52 sale because my contact told me wrong on the date. By the time I went in four days later, they were gone. One investor was seen to walk up to the rack, wrap his arms around as many as he could carry, and haul them to the counter.
The CMP will have to "reinvent" itself to stay in operation. They are selling new .22 rifles, for example.
I hope the Talladega operation pans out, although I am sorry they could not find room for a 1000 yard range on 500 acres. There is not a publicly accessable Long Range facility in the state.
HankB
Member
Exactly what I was thinking . . . the lower is the machine gun. Although I suspect that once declared "surplus" anything off an M16 would be heavily used, and possibly worn out. (Besides, the current administration would probably sell/give them to Hamas rather than Americans.)
Hmmm . . . I'm not aware of any law that would prohibit surplus sales of 1911s, M9s, or obsolete bolt-action sniper rifles . . . but again, I suspect the military won't get rid of current issue guns until they're heavily worn.
medalguy
Member
The CMP's charter only allows sales of rifles, parts & supplies. When Orest Michaels was head of CMP, he was repeatedly was asked about pistol sales, specifically M1911A1, and his response was always "no pistol sales are allowed."
The CMP did sell M14 kits a year or so ago, which included everything except receivers, so it's always a possibility that M14 or M16 kits might be available at some point in the future, but don't hold your breath on that. The DOD and BATFE requirements for demiling machine guns pretty well preclude many usable parts becoming available.
The CMP did sell M14 kits a year or so ago, which included everything except receivers, so it's always a possibility that M14 or M16 kits might be available at some point in the future, but don't hold your breath on that. The DOD and BATFE requirements for demiling machine guns pretty well preclude many usable parts becoming available.
The CMP isn't there to sell us rifles.
It is there for MARKSMANSHIP. Hence the name Civilian MARKSMANSHIP Program. They sell rifles to get money to use for improving the marksmanship of civilians.
The sales of "parts" even "complete parts kits" that only need the receiver or maybe receiver FCG, is an interesting theory...IF they could get their hands on them
It is there for MARKSMANSHIP. Hence the name Civilian MARKSMANSHIP Program. They sell rifles to get money to use for improving the marksmanship of civilians.
The sales of "parts" even "complete parts kits" that only need the receiver or maybe receiver FCG, is an interesting theory...IF they could get their hands on them
Speedo66
Member
The current NRA is backed by sporting arms manufacturers. I don't see the NRA going against their sponsors and seriously trying to push the CMP to bring in guns from foreign shores when each one might mean one less commercial arm sale.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Say wut? 
Why would the NRA have power to pressure CMP to do anything?
And how many commercial gun manufacturers are putting out Garands and 1903s? "One less commercial sale?" C'mon, that doesn't even make sense.
To the extent that CMP makes money (and so stays viable) on rifle sales, it would be in THEIR interest to bring in more rifles from "foreign shores" or wherever so to have stock on hand to sell. They certainly don't need any outside prodding to do so!
Why would the NRA have power to pressure CMP to do anything?
And how many commercial gun manufacturers are putting out Garands and 1903s? "One less commercial sale?" C'mon, that doesn't even make sense.
To the extent that CMP makes money (and so stays viable) on rifle sales, it would be in THEIR interest to bring in more rifles from "foreign shores" or wherever so to have stock on hand to sell. They certainly don't need any outside prodding to do so!
Sunray
Member
Neutered M-16's and M-14's are considered to be MG's by the government agency your elected representatives are allowing to make law by regulation.
Sad part is they exported their idiocy, I mean, ideas. And now the semi'd Winchester M-14 I have is evil. So are its mags.
Sad part is they exported their idiocy, I mean, ideas. And now the semi'd Winchester M-14 I have is evil. So are its mags.
mgkdrgn
Member
Ain't gonna happen. So far as ATF is concerned, once a machine gun, always a machine gun. No way to stuff the toothpaste back in the tube.
HorseSoldier
Member
We gave a lot of M14s as military aid to some of the Baltic nations (Estonia and Lithuania, not sure on Latvia) in the 90s when they were trying to rebuild their post-Soviet militaries and were eager to get a NATO compliant, non-AK, rifle at a point in time when they had zero money available for rearmament.
cluttonfred
Member
Hmmm, that doesn't seem right. How is that we are able to buy parts kits without the receiver for semi-auto versions of other formerly full-auto weapons, including light machine guns?
Ignition Override
Member
Couldn't many Non select-fire rifles ("etc") and handguns be stored at the Naval storage/logistics facility in Crane IN?
They have numerous large bldgs. with surplus items. There's probably very little possibility that-if they really are there-the CMP could gain access to them.
A friend who retired from a military rifle team chatted with one of their staff a few years ago. The base commander supposedly delayed his retirement because he was concerned that our civilian "leadership", so to speak, would learn about and attempt to dispose of much of it.
Mods: If this material is what many people suspect, and still is confidential, then please delete this post.
They have numerous large bldgs. with surplus items. There's probably very little possibility that-if they really are there-the CMP could gain access to them.
A friend who retired from a military rifle team chatted with one of their staff a few years ago. The base commander supposedly delayed his retirement because he was concerned that our civilian "leadership", so to speak, would learn about and attempt to dispose of much of it.
Mods: If this material is what many people suspect, and still is confidential, then please delete this post.
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