Varminterror
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Under powered for its weight, overpriced, less reliable than it should be, and expensive to have serviced? Yup. Just like a Cadillac!
308 semi auto AR10 or M1a
- Thread starter JO JO
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Under powered for its weight, overpriced, less reliable than it should be, and expensive to have serviced? Yup. Just like a Cadillac!
Armorer 101
Member
In 1966 I was told to go get my sniper rifle. So being a 101st NCO and the Armorer for the rifle team, it was yes sir. I called Div supply got any Remington 700s, no, how about Win 70s no, have you got anything that will shoot over 300, yes, the M-14s you guys traded in, last year. So I go get a requisition for 14 M-14s for aggressor force use. I take my Jeep to supply and hand pick 14 likely candidates. Hey you guys have a scope mount for at lest one, yep seems like we have one in a box somewhere around here, that in the Airborne means your damed straight we do. Got a scope, nope. I bought my own 3-9 Redfield out of my pocket. Made my own sniper rifle. It was OK for what it was.
Fast forward 30 years, I bought an Armalite AR-10T then built an upper in 260 with a Lilja SS, 1-8 barrel 20” long with a free float handguard and an adjustable gas block. In 1966 I would have given a left nut for that 260. I put 3 rounds, rapid fire, Into the left eye socket of a life size face picture target at 500 meters. In front of 3 witnesses.
I no longer own any M-14 or M1A rifles and have not done so since I met the 260 AR-10. Basicly it is a laser and if you can see it you can hit it.
Oh, the light weight 308 AR is a RRA LAR with barrels that only fit it. Look up the 308 AR site, it has perhaps 30 pages on 308 ARs and what is and is not an AR-10 the Armalite is the one and only AR-10, unless made under license but still to AR-10 specs for strength and fit.
Fast forward 30 years, I bought an Armalite AR-10T then built an upper in 260 with a Lilja SS, 1-8 barrel 20” long with a free float handguard and an adjustable gas block. In 1966 I would have given a left nut for that 260. I put 3 rounds, rapid fire, Into the left eye socket of a life size face picture target at 500 meters. In front of 3 witnesses.
I no longer own any M-14 or M1A rifles and have not done so since I met the 260 AR-10. Basicly it is a laser and if you can see it you can hit it.
Oh, the light weight 308 AR is a RRA LAR with barrels that only fit it. Look up the 308 AR site, it has perhaps 30 pages on 308 ARs and what is and is not an AR-10 the Armalite is the one and only AR-10, unless made under license but still to AR-10 specs for strength and fit.
Chuck R.
Member
Same here, IF you're badly dinging your brass with a FAL you're over gassed.
Charlie98
Member
My grandfather had a 68 or 69 Cadillac... but it had the 500 in it. It was not under powered.
A lot of comparison going on. Comparing an M1a to a AR, for example, is like comparing a S&W N-frame to a Colt SAA. They both shoot 6 rounds, but how they do it is very different. If you are looking at this from a practical point of view... the AR will likely win. If you want a intriguing rifle... the M1a. Both will likely require some tinkering. Both can be modified fairly extensively... and, yes, the AR is easier to mod. OP, you are going to have to do some soul searching to come up with WHY you are buying this, WHAT you expect out of it, and HOW you expect to use it.
marksman13
Member
So, an M1A is ten times the rifle the AR-10 is, but the AR-10 does literally everything better than the M1A. Not sure I follow your logic. I own both and will add an M1A National Match soon, but the AR-10 is the better rifle in every metric.
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GBExpat
Member
I periodically consider building one or more "AR10"s,
but I have already built "M14"s & "FAL"s and have a couple of Century CETMEs (good ones that I bought 18-19 years ago) so I have plenty of rifles on-hand (and a large supply of good milsurp ammo) to scratch my 7,62x51 semi-auto itch.
I have a bunch of built-out AR15 Lowers and Uppers (8 or 9, each?) so building an "AR10" would be easy for me.
The "AR10" Urge has simply not overwhelmed me ... yet.
While I really like my "M14"s, when I feel like carrying a ".308" for a walkabout I almost always grab what I think of as my FAL Carbine (one of my favorite rifles, built with an StG-58 Kit) that I built back in ~2003. And, yes, after shortening the barrel I did have to enlarge the gas port.
but I have already built "M14"s & "FAL"s and have a couple of Century CETMEs (good ones that I bought 18-19 years ago) so I have plenty of rifles on-hand (and a large supply of good milsurp ammo) to scratch my 7,62x51 semi-auto itch.
I have a bunch of built-out AR15 Lowers and Uppers (8 or 9, each?) so building an "AR10" would be easy for me.
The "AR10" Urge has simply not overwhelmed me ... yet.
While I really like my "M14"s, when I feel like carrying a ".308" for a walkabout I almost always grab what I think of as my FAL Carbine (one of my favorite rifles, built with an StG-58 Kit) that I built back in ~2003. And, yes, after shortening the barrel I did have to enlarge the gas port.
Gordon
Member
Wow! Even more advanced than this old Screaming Eagle ! I concur with you totally ! Right on ! However I do have a little lighter AERO .308 upper too for my AR 10. And like Flat Bush Harry I still have my 1980 M1-a as done by Smith enterprise in 1989 , just in case. But keep it with a tuned up ANPVS-2 on it with a powerful IR light between the bipod
I also love FALs here is an old picture of them too.
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mustanger98
Member
With as many accounts of good experience as are recounted here, I tend to say get that A2... assuming (cough cough) it's one of the reliable ones. With it, you can zero the irons, then mount an optic and zero it. You'd have the option of running it either way as necessary.
shoobe01
Member
Even those two are WILDLY different guns. One is irons, all day long, and not floated so unlikely to be shot worth a damned with a sling or bipod. The other is not just optic ready, but can handle clipons, and lasers and so on, as well as bipods and slings.
I think we need specific needs more clarified to suggest specific guns. And... a budget?
I think we need specific needs more clarified to suggest specific guns. And... a budget?
dieselchief
Member
why is it always either or. screw that, get both, enjoy while you can.
Charlie98
Member
You know... a few years ago I looked at a Wyndham .308 AR, I thought it was very well built, not a lot of crap (simple) and for what was at the time a reasonable cost ($1500 if memory serves.). If I was ever to pursue a .308 AR, I’d probably start there.
I really appreciate everyone's input
And yes those are very different rifles, there is no need just a fun semi 308 , I do feel the A2 irons can be accurate enough as I also have 308 bolt guns with worked up loads that hold .6 moa repeatedly so this doesn't need to be a sub moa shooter , I do like both of them but there is something to be said about the simplicity of the A2 , reminds me of the M16 of yesteryear just a bigger caliber
Seems like most are out of stock right now guess I will have a bit of time to kick the tires on this
And yes those are very different rifles, there is no need just a fun semi 308 , I do feel the A2 irons can be accurate enough as I also have 308 bolt guns with worked up loads that hold .6 moa repeatedly so this doesn't need to be a sub moa shooter , I do like both of them but there is something to be said about the simplicity of the A2 , reminds me of the M16 of yesteryear just a bigger caliber
Seems like most are out of stock right now guess I will have a bit of time to kick the tires on this
mustanger98
Member
They do say patience is a virtue and good things come to those who wait.
Flatbush Harry
Member
I have to disagree with your characterization. My M1As all wear scopes with a quick detachable/attachable Bassett mount, are easily rigged and fired with slings using the standard sling bases that are factory installed, come with superior ghost ring irons standard (my Supermatch has 1/2 MOA NM adjustable rear sights), and can be set up with a mil-spec M2 bipod clipping on to the gas tube faster than you can attach a Harris-type bipod to a sling swivel, and, as to accuracy, can be as accurate as an AR-10 as my 10-shot target in post # 24 shows. I shot that group using an M2 bipod and scope. I did a trigger job on the rifle (very easy with a simple Arkansas stone on M1-type triggers), cleaning up a gritty creep and setting 2nd stage trigger pull to 5.5 lbs (middle of the range for NRA matches). Both types of rifles are equally useful although if you want to hang a Cuisinart or blender, flashlight, can opener, and other highly useful stuff the AR-10 has space for multiple rails (so does the SOCOM II but is unpleasant to hold). I can hang my M8 bayonet on my M1As which the AR-10 can't accommodate. As to price, I did pay $530 for my Supermatch and $1,175 for my most recent M1A.
Net, net, and seriously, this does not have to be an either/or question.
Cheers,
I hear the coments about the M1A: "Underpowered for its weight" etc .
I would bet that the average scoped standard M1A is lighter than the average scoped 20" AR10. AND the M1A has the extra 2" of barrel to boot just as the DOD intended. 150 gr@2856 fps was the benchmark and they were serious about obtaining it! Well they came as close as they could.
So essentially, the AR10 is heavier and lower powered giving up 75 fps. unless it has a 22" barrel which is rare. But then it is still heavier.
Both Garand and Kalashnikov managed to create lighter designs than the Stoner design, while using only wood and steel. If you don't believe it, try making an AR10 out of wood and steel and see what it would weigh!
I would bet that the average scoped standard M1A is lighter than the average scoped 20" AR10. AND the M1A has the extra 2" of barrel to boot just as the DOD intended. 150 gr@2856 fps was the benchmark and they were serious about obtaining it! Well they came as close as they could.
So essentially, the AR10 is heavier and lower powered giving up 75 fps. unless it has a 22" barrel which is rare. But then it is still heavier.
Both Garand and Kalashnikov managed to create lighter designs than the Stoner design, while using only wood and steel. If you don't believe it, try making an AR10 out of wood and steel and see what it would weigh!
First I believe he was talking about the 2 ARs in the post right above that OP posted.
Second one of the things that loses me is I'm OK with my Scout Squad and 2.5- MOA groups with irons cause it's reliable and relatively short and light.
I've tried souping M1a up with a scope and good mount and watch guys throw tons of $$$ at them chasing groups that my budgetish 308AR will do easily and I have about the same $$$ in it as my scout squad and that includes glass.
cdb1
Member
M1’s have never held any allure for me. Please no PM’s telling me it’s a character flaw. AR-10 for me.
shoobe01
Member
Yes. Meant the two most recently posted photos. Didn't want to clutter with quoting a photo, my mistake!
Also to agree with mavracer: I have shot scoped and even RDS'd M14 of various sorts, (not mine) and some were rather fine but SO much effort and cost to get a good mount, or weird ergos with high sights, and while some work, then they don't. Some are accurate, some are not. Seems a lot of effort.
I vaguely knew guys in early OIF and OEF, who were given old (sometimes, NOS!) M14s for the DMR role. They had to install scope mounts, and also make sure the guns worked. They were EXTREMELY mediocre out of the box. Most 2-4 MOA. Rarely under 2, and many worse. Of a not very big batch one guy told us about (maybe 40 guns?) several 8 moa no matter what. One was (14) FOURTEEN. Never issued out. But also: the vaunted craftsmanship of the old steel and wood, meh?
Also to agree with mavracer: I have shot scoped and even RDS'd M14 of various sorts, (not mine) and some were rather fine but SO much effort and cost to get a good mount, or weird ergos with high sights, and while some work, then they don't. Some are accurate, some are not. Seems a lot of effort.
I vaguely knew guys in early OIF and OEF, who were given old (sometimes, NOS!) M14s for the DMR role. They had to install scope mounts, and also make sure the guns worked. They were EXTREMELY mediocre out of the box. Most 2-4 MOA. Rarely under 2, and many worse. Of a not very big batch one guy told us about (maybe 40 guns?) several 8 moa no matter what. One was (14) FOURTEEN. Never issued out. But also: the vaunted craftsmanship of the old steel and wood, meh?
Reloadron
Contributing Member
I voted AR10 but it really depends on what the shooter is comfortable with and their intended application. I have both and shoot on a pretty regular basis. As a young Marine I trained with the M14 and qualified with it. When I got to Nam I was handed an M16 but always held a fondness for the M14.
Both are match and as can be seen no scope.
The bi pods are just props.
When all is said and done all that matters is the shooter (buyer) be happy with their choice and no regrets. Personally I like both about equally.
Ron
Both are match and as can be seen no scope.
The bi pods are just props.
When all is said and done all that matters is the shooter (buyer) be happy with their choice and no regrets. Personally I like both about equally.
Ron
View media item 30325th from the Top:scoped Smith and Wesson 308, 18"
Bottom: 16" Armalite, OD Green, Reddield 7X scope, Warne mounts.
Bottom: 16" Armalite, OD Green, Reddield 7X scope, Warne mounts.
I like the sights on the AR. I grew up shooting small bore rifle with an Anschutz 1413 through high school and college. I decided I wanted to play with my 20" AR by putting good iron sights on it. The front sight is easy; the rear sight is something else. Several people make rear sights that clamp on the receiver rail, but no one seems to make an adapter for the Anschutz rear sight, so I made on myself. Works great and for those who may have Anschutz sights laying around that may not have been used in 40 yrs, it make a beautiful arrangement.
GBExpat
Member
HAHAHAHA! OK.
mustanger98
Member
So, if we can't pm somebody and tell 'em it's a character flaw, do we post how Un-American it is out here? But then, I saw where John C. Garand endorsed the idea behind Stoner's work too.
The part about the AR-10A2 being "irons all day"... if the carry handle is like on an AR-15, there's a couple of different scope bases to fit there.
But then, I saw where John C. Garand endorsed the idea behind Stoner's work too.The part about the AR-10A2 being "irons all day"... if the carry handle is like on an AR-15, there's a couple of different scope bases to fit there.
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