Which 308 semi-auto? (not AR10/FAL)

[barnbwt]

Aw, man, I forgot the SCAR and the RFB :banghead:

First one's very good, but very expensive (essentially a G36 but priced in accordance with quality products that actually exist). The second one shows promise, but still seems to have more than its fair share of issues, which I'm not prepared to rule out aren't solvable by more experience and development. It is a very unique platform, so there was very little in the way of bug-proofing for KT to draw upon.

BTW, denounce hipsters all you like, they do tend to find better stuff than people think is available. So, you know, a net 'plus' for the public at large (just so long as you don't have to interact with them ). Like, did you know the G3 is only marginally suited for 308, and that the switch from the original design using an intermediate cartridge (280 British, or something like that) was made fairly late into the design phase? That's why the STGW57, with nearly identical operation and ballistics, has a much heavier bolt and much more massive delaying rollers, and doesn't recoil or eject nearly so harshly. An STGW57 clone can actually be built from original parts much more cheaply than a G3.

Attached is my STGW in progress (beer is for scale...mostly)

TCB

 

[Ash]

Nom, you need to relax and let it rest. I happen to agree fully that the MAS 49/56 was a superb rifle (though I prefer the rotating bolt used in the M14). It was sturdy and reliable. The French had little care about the caliber as it was what they used. The hipster remark was more a play on the French desire to always be different.

The lament of the caliber today is that most 7.62x51 MAS rifles are crap because of bad Century reaming not because of French design. Believe it or not, I have no vendetta against you nor your choices.

Owning the Garand, Super Garand, Mini Super Garand, alternate Super Garand (Belgian) and alternate Super Garand (French) alternate Super Garand (Egypt) and death knell to all the Super Garands (AR), I know them well, too.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Guess I missed it: You've never owned or shot an AR-10 or an FAL, yet you are eliminating them from selection of .308 semi-auto...?

At the same time you will not specify what the rifle will be for.

Get a Rem. 742 in .308, you'll do fine, and have an ammo budget.

Automatic elimination of the AR-10 and FAL clones also has me wondering why.

What does the I.P. expect from the rifle he chooses?

Your suggestion of Rem 742 in .308 may be the best suggestion yet as a starting point monetarily and functionally for a new rifle.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Aw, man, I forgot the SCAR and the RFB :banghead:

First one's very good, but very expensive (essentially a G36 but priced in accordance with quality products that actually exist). The second one shows promise, but still seems to have more than its fair share of issues, which I'm not prepared to rule out aren't solvable by more experience and development. It is a very unique platform, so there was very little in the way of bug-proofing for KT to draw upon.

BTW, denounce hipsters all you like, they do tend to find better stuff than people think is available. So, you know, a net 'plus' for the public at large (just so long as you don't have to interact with them ). Like, did you know the G3 is only marginally suited for 308, and that the switch from the original design using an intermediate cartridge (280 British, or something like that) was made fairly late into the design phase? That's why the STGW57, with nearly identical operation and ballistics, has a much heavier bolt and much more massive delaying rollers, and doesn't recoil or eject nearly so harshly. An STGW57 clone can actually be built from original parts much more cheaply than a G3.

Attached is my STGW in progress (beer is for scale...mostly)

TCB

Wow! I am so glad to be replying to the first 8' tall ubermensch I've met on a forum. I have a passing familiarity with the crew served weapon (for us mere mortals) you are constructing. For a very short time in 1979 I tried to sell them at Mandall's. The only thing more impressive to perspective buyers than it's size was the price, $1700 at a time when HK91s and M1As went for about $400. The AMT was about $1500. The fit and finish on the AMT and STG-57 were masterpiece quality compared to the HK and Springfield. The hardest thing about selling the STG-57 other than the price was the 7.5 Swiss caliber. The AMTs were in 7.62 Nato. In my mind no battle rifle has a more wicked, sinister, menacing, and intimidating appearance than a STG-57. You are a fortunate man to have one. You have a very cool and hip rifle. Good for you!

 

[back40]

ash, saying that semi pistol grip stocks suit your purposes just fine, doesn't mean that full pistol grip stocks aren't more ergonomic. it means that you don't require the enhanced ergonomics they provide. one handed weapon manipulation, retention, even trigger finger placement are all typically better with full pistol grip stocks. there are reasons that almost all current battle rifle options, and even benchrest and other target guns use a more full pistol grip.

for the op, i've been pondering a .308 semi for a while. if money weren't an issue, i'd likely get the scar. that said, for about 1k less, i can have the ruger sr762, which will fit all of my criteria.

i'd still like to hear what your proposed use is.

 

[Ash]

Ergonomics, you know, apply specifically to the user. My proposed use? I'm no Walt Operator. My proposed use is punching paper, hunting, or longer distance shooting.

Of course, that means I can't possibly be a real shooter. Heck, I don't own any tactical gear...just a forester who does quite a bit of work in remote swamps. I'm also an avid back packer - I've hiked in Yellow Stone but find the Eastern mountains more my taste.

 

[back40]

i think ergonomics in this sense applies more generally. personal preference is different. i don't think too many would argue that an ar isn't more ergonomic than an ak.

also, i was referring to the OP's intended use.

 

[barnbwt]

No, no I'm quite positive you could manage to get people to argue an AR is less ergonomic than an AK . I would definitely go AR, M1, FNAR, FAL, AK, G3 in descending order, but that's because I can't palm beach balls with my shooting hand, and the FAL's cocking handle is just too different from what I'm used to (AR, too, but it's at least at the back of the rifle)

Getting back to the OP's intentions, "anything a 223 won't do" it's pretty much distance marksmanship and mid-to-heavy hunting, right? And shoulder smack, of course (let's not pretend we don't own high power rifles partially to get a good thumb on our collarbones once in a while ). For meeting those tasks, I'd be wary of M1's, FALs, and G3s. Not because they aren't superb guns, but simply because gearing them for accuracy is difficult/expensive. In the years since I bought my FNAR used for 800$, AR308's have become much more common and standardized, so I think they probably are near price parity with the FNAR (~1400$ new) and give up very little accuracy at that level for the other benefits of the AR system. But when I bought mine, bare-bones ARs with non-match barrels were a good 400$ more, and nothing seemed to be compatible. At that time, the <1000$ FNAR was a screaming deal, when 1MOA-guaranteed ARs were nearly 2000$. Now that they're closer in value, the benefits of AR commonality/design push me more toward endorsing that platform, though I am still very happy with the FNAR.

TCB

 

[Nom de Forum]

Nom, you need to relax and let it rest. I happen to agree fully that the MAS 49/56 was a superb rifle (though I prefer the rotating bolt used in the M14). It was sturdy and reliable. The French had little care about the caliber as it was what they used. The hipster remark was more a play on the French desire to always be different.

The lament of the caliber today is that most 7.62x51 MAS rifles are crap because of bad Century reaming not because of French design. Believe it or not, I have no vendetta against you nor your choices.

Owning the Garand, Super Garand, Mini Super Garand, alternate Super Garand (Belgian) and alternate Super Garand (French) alternate Super Garand (Egypt) and death knell to all the Super Garands (AR), I know them well, too.

O.K. we're cool. I may have been a little tense in reply because of earlier experiences today on THR.

You mentioned owning the "Mini Super Garand". Are you referring to the Italian or Prescott version? You are a rare and fortunate individual to own three completely different DI systems. I have no experience with the Hakim. What are your impressions of it? Do you know that Beretta made a .22 caliber version? That would be a rarely owned companion piece for your rifle.

I am not as enamored with the grand style rotating bolt as you. In fact if the MAS 49/56 lost the grenade launcher sight and magazine mounted catch, and had 20 round magazines as standard, I would definitely choose it over an M14 as a battle rifle. It is a much simpler rifle for a soldier to maintain. I think if JMB designed a DI system battle rifle it may have more likely had a locking system resembling an MAS 49 than a Garand.

 

[barnbwt]

And Ash, as any fellow backpacker would know, a semi-auto 308 is just about the worst thing imaginable for such adventures . 22LR, 22TCM, or 5.7x28, thank you very much

BTW, check out the Aspen area of CO if you haven't previously (backpacking is so cheap, you don't have to worry about 'supporting the antis' ). Mind blowing terrain and great trails . Good people if you go in the off season, too.

TCB

 

[blarby]

Vepr 308

My wife loves hers- but you'll nead a receiver shroud buffer if you want to reload any of that brass........

 

[Ash]

barn, if I carry at all, it's a Ruger Police Service Six in .357. Rifles are too cumbersome on the trail in my opinion.

I liked the Hakim but never could get much accuracy out of it - probably due more to the ammo than the rifle. The dust-cover charging method is pretty neat and not that different from racking the slide of a pistol (except you have to slide it forward before you go back). Hakim thumb is worse than Garand thumb by the way. The interesting thing is that Swedish bayonets can be made to work with them (you have to grind a bit off the bayo). But, take down was very easy (and in a way, not that different from a Dragunov or SKS) making it possible to clean from the breach with a rod.

I've nothing so exoctic as .22lr Garands, the Mini Super Garand I refer to is the Mini 14 which I keep at the farm for racoons or coyotes.

 

[Nom de Forum]

.......I've nothing so exoctic as .22lr Garands, the Mini Super Garand I refer to is the Mini 14 which I keep at the farm for racoons or coyotes.

I did not clearly convey that Beretta made up some .22 Hakims for the Egyptians. I've never seen even a picture just reference to them. I thought you meant the Ruger Mini, but wondered if you were referring to the BM59. I've played with the BM59. If you decide to take barnbwt's suggestion about hiking up the mountains near Aspen, you should consider heading southwest to hike down the Grand Canyon for a trip back in geological time.

 

[HJ857]

I'll kick in for the FNAR as well. Even though it doesn't really look like it, it is remarkably similar to an AR in terms of ergnomics. And it really does shoot as well as advertised.

Mine's been modified with the ACE stock adapter, which does allow you to use a side folding stock if you want it. Plus I had Short Action Customs do a trigger job and I added the Kahntrol clamp on brake, which is fantastic.

It's not cheaper than many AR10's, I think I have around $1500.00 in it not including the scope, which I took off another rifle anyway.

It is somewhat heavy, just a bit more than a 6.5 Grendel Overwatch AR I had a few years ago, and lighter than a National Match AR that had a counterweight in it.

 

[Torian]

Breakingcontact
Just out of curiosity why not the Fal or the AR10? Are you looking for surgical precision or a blunt instrument?

M1A is a great gun, but I am leery of the cast SA Inc made parts on them now a days. There are several other makers that use forged receivers and now some of the parts. I would cherry pick as many USGI parts as you could get and get some replacement parts for the long term. Then have one built up the way you want it. I can't say who makes the better receiver but there should be enough internet info to make an informed decision. Also ask the builder what he would recommend.

Also a M1 done right in 308win is a good rig. I would stick with as many USGI parts as you can. There getting more expensive but isn't everything. Clips might be come an issue. I was at the show this weekend and there was only one guy with M1 clips, $1.00 ea.

Best of luck
WB

The LRB actions are FORGED. This is why fragout highlighted them. I also have an LRB M14/M25. Can say enough good things about the gun. Rugged would be an understatement

 

[Torian]

I'll kick in for the FNAR as well. Even though it doesn't really look like it, it is remarkably similar to an AR in terms of ergnomics. And it really does shoot as well as advertised.

Mine's been modified with the ACE stock adapter, which does allow you to use a side folding stock if you want it. Plus I had Short Action Customs do a trigger job and I added the Kahntrol clamp on brake, which is fantastic.

It's not cheaper than many AR10's, I think I have around $1500.00 in it not including the scope, which I took off another rifle anyway.

It is somewhat heavy, just a bit more than a 6.5 Grendel Overwatch AR I had a few years ago, and lighter than a National Match AR that had a counterweight in it.

I see you put quite the muzzle brake on this. Did you feel it was that necessary?

 

[HJ857]

Did you feel it was that necessary

Nah. But I do really like brakes. I do a lot of mid range shooting without a spotter, the brake makes it possible to see my hits or misses.

 

[Nickel Plated]

Also look into the Robinson Arms XCR-M. Looks pretty sweet.

 

[barnbwt]

"Nah. But I do really like brakes."
That's actually a pretty good looking one for how large it is (we all know they can get gawdy quite easily ). The FNAR is actually a pretty soft shooter, though (it feels substantially less than my 700 SPS in 308, obviously due to the additional weight, but the stock and gas operation certainly aren't hurting anything). FWIW, the FNAR (mine, at least) is pretty gentle on brass. I think I only ever had slight dings --not even dents-- on the shoulder corners. Pretty much any and all military pattern rifles beat up brass unless buffers or other consideration is made to control this.

TCB

 

[powder]

Ergonomics, you know, apply specifically to the user. My proposed use? I'm no Walt Operator. My proposed use is punching paper, hunting, or longer distance shooting.

Of course, that means I can't possibly be a real shooter. Heck, I don't own any tactical gear...just a forester who does quite a bit of work in remote swamps. I'm also an avid back packer - I've hiked in Yellow Stone but find the Eastern mountains more my taste.

Target range? Price range?

Not quite sure where your diatribe goes/comes to about tactical gear-up, and other mis-perceptions? Well, I'm going to go ahead and recommend the AR-10 platforms, with reasoning attached.

GunBroker has broken the seal on the markets, like this specialty AR-10 niche. Last fall I watched a 24" AL T model go for $900. There are ad. and Disad. to the AR-10 series rifles, but at least with the ArmaLite crew you still have a great factory to help you tweek the rifle to your specs., even when buying a used unit.

I have ZERO experience with the other rifles the guys are talking about, but I do know some of those in my training ranks REALLY have a thing for their FALs, and htat alone tells me those are worth investigating the specifics of.

Do you do any re-loading?

 

[torqem]

And just why don't you "like" the AR platform? No fighting rifle is much on the aesthics. No more real use than anyone has for a 308, I can't see more than $400 in an old Remington sporter, really. And I'd get it on 3006, so it could handle bigger critters, longer ranges, and I could pull 06 AP bullets, reload them and use it as a truck gun. The 223 ARis just so superior for combat (to include realistic sniping, actually,)varminting, small game, match shooting etc that it's beyond argument. So,big game, piercing cars, or "looks" are the only real issue, and like I said, no military auto is much on the looks department.

I had a match grade M1A in 1975, and one really fast magful of ammo thru it cooked the fiberglass bedding, rendering it rack grade and costing me about $500 in today's money. Once I discovered that, I couldn't wait to get rid of it.

 

[Ash]

Diatribe? Me? No.