Which 308 semi-auto? (not AR10/FAL)

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With the restrictions given, it sure sounds like you're trying to justify an AR15 308 platform. Just sayin' ;)

I'd strongly encourage you to look the FNAR over again. If accuracy is your goal, there is scarcely a better deal. Again, if accuracy is your goal; you'll pay a lot more for 1MOA on any other platform. Far, far more than a thread-job (btw, factory threaded barrels aren't always that great, and you may end up having to have them re-done for concentricity if running a larger extension like a suppressor)

Box-fed semi-auto 308 rundown;
If you want a rifle that's the coolest in Greatest Generation-era form with iron sights; M14 for its history and tenuous Garand connections
If you want what the M14 was supposed to be; Beretta BM59
If you want a highly impressive tack driver; AR15 in 308 from some high-end maker that sells accurized platforms
If you want a highly impressive-looking tack driver to woo the ladies; The same AR with a bunch of junk hung on a quad rail and a complex stock
If you want something unstoppable but with no other redeeming qualities; PTR/G3/CETME
If you are a hipster who's into cool swag that the mainstream is too dumb to appreciate; MAS 49/56
If you are a Fudd, friendly or otherwise; Remington R25
If you are an 8ft tall Ubermensch with a (local) Swiss bank account; SIG AMT or STGW57/PE57
If you want something boringly functional and adequate; FAL
If you want something an elegant weapon from a more civilized age; FN49
If you are a cheap SOB at heart and want to spend a little --but not too much; Saiga 308
If you area rich SOB; Galil, Daewoo, WA2000, G36, or other unobtainables not listed
If you want an accurate platform built on a concept suited for anything but that role; VEPR
If you want a 1MOA repeater that takes 5,10,20 round mags, is set up for optics-only bench/blind shooting, and costs an arm and no leg; FNAR/SXAR

TCB
 
well,in not choosing the ar10 platform,you making a huge mistake.the m14 is the standard,but disassembling and putting it back together may result in changes of impact/accuracy issues,if not careful.scope mounting is an issue.

the ar10 is more accurate, lighter, and cheaper.you can change uppers and stock sets more easily,and not worry about losing accuracy.you can get flash hiders that double as silencer adapters.after market parts that fit the ar-15 are plentiful. ar10 mags are cheaper than m14 mags.
another would be the hk91/ptr91.heavy,but does not change zero like the m14 can do if stock fit is not right.scope mounting using the claw mount can be an issue.some ptr91 come with a picatinny rail,which eases problems with retaining zero.

now i have a smith ent m14 sak guts,leatherwood mpc/mount and a m14e2 smith,winchester guts,but my next will be an 18 inch ar10,since i have numerous ar's.
 
BARNBWT- Like the list and hearing what you think. You did miss the most voted for and (in my opinion. others may differ) versatile/reliable weapon, the SCAR-17s. Ill admit i havent shot everything there is though, but the SCAR comes HIGHLY recommended.
 
barnbwt said:
With the restrictions given, it sure sounds like you're trying to justify an AR15 308 platform. Just sayin' ;)

I'd strongly encourage you to look the FNAR over again. If accuracy is your goal, there is scarcely a better deal. Again, if accuracy is your goal; you'll pay a lot more for 1MOA on any other platform. Far, far more than a thread-job (btw, factory threaded barrels aren't always that great, and you may end up having to have them re-done for concentricity if running a larger extension like a suppressor)

Box-fed semi-auto 308 rundown;
If you want a rifle that's the coolest in Greatest Generation-era form with iron sights; M14 for its history and tenuous Garand connections
If you want what the M14 was supposed to be; Beretta BM59
If you want a highly impressive tack driver; AR15 in 308 from some high-end maker that sells accurized platforms
If you want a highly impressive-looking tack driver to woo the ladies; The same AR with a bunch of junk hung on a quad rail and a complex stock
If you want something unstoppable but with no other redeeming qualities; PTR/G3/CETME
If you are a hipster who's into cool swag that the mainstream is too dumb to appreciate; MAS 49/56
If you are a Fudd, friendly or otherwise; Remington R25
If you are an 8ft tall Ubermensch with a (local) Swiss bank account; SIG AMT or STGW57/PE57
If you want something boringly functional and adequate; FAL
If you want something an elegant weapon from a more civilized age; FN49
If you are a cheap SOB at heart and want to spend a little --but not too much; Saiga 308
If you area rich SOB; Galil, Daewoo, WA2000, G36, or other unobtainables not listed
If you want an accurate platform built on a concept suited for anything but that role; VEPR
If you want a 1MOA repeater that takes 5,10,20 round mags, is set up for optics-only bench/blind shooting, and costs an arm and no leg; FNAR/SXAR

TCB
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This answer is definitely the best.

For those who say I'm making a huge mistake...what? Is a 1911 guy making a huge mistake for not choosing a Glock? Wow.

I don't like the AR15/AR10 platform, yes I know everyone and their mother now has an AR15 of some type.
 
fragout said:
How reliable are 8rd M1Garand enbloc clips in terms of feeding one chambered in 308?

Are there any modifications to the clips themselves?
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The clips need no modifications. The base of the 308 Winchester case is essentially the same as 30-06 case, as far as the clip is concerned. Later production HXP cases changed the rim dimensions on their 30-06 cases and I believe those matched the 308 Winchester case rim at the the time.

The Navy converted a bunch of Garands in the late fifties or early sixties to 308 Winchester. Some of these had an insert in the chamber and that did not work very well, but when re-barreled with a 308 Winchester barrel, they worked as normal.

The CMP 308W M1s come with a spacer in the magazine to prevent inserting a clip of 30-06 ammunition. A good safety feature. I believe the original conversion also had a spacer.

I have not shot mine yet although I have had it for almost a year, too many other projects. I bought it so that I would not miss out if the run was short. I have not heard any reliability issues with them.

Hope this helps.
 
I have never had a malfunction from a 308 M1 unless you consider the need to always slap the charging handle forward after inserting a fresh clip. Personally I prefer that "problem" as it protects me from M1 thumb and doesn't slow me down.
 
breakingcontact said:
Automatically I'm leaning towards the M1A but want to consider other options.

No AR10 type, no FAL

I considered the FN FNAR, but it's not threaded, so that's out.

What other semi-autos are at least as accurate and reliable as the M1A?
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Breakingcontact
Just out of curiosity why not the Fal or the AR10? Are you looking for surgical precision or a blunt instrument?

M1A is a great gun, but I am leery of the cast SA Inc made parts on them now a days. There are several other makers that use forged receivers and now some of the parts. I would cherry pick as many USGI parts as you could get and get some replacement parts for the long term. Then have one built up the way you want it. I can't say who makes the better receiver but there should be enough internet info to make an informed decision. Also ask the builder what he would recommend.

Also a M1 done right in 308win is a good rig. I would stick with as many USGI parts as you can. There getting more expensive but isn't everything. Clips might be come an issue. I was at the show this weekend and there was only one guy with M1 clips, $1.00 ea.

Best of luck
WB
 
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Great Summation barnbwt!

By the way, I can only be "a hipster who's into cool swag that the mainstream is too dumb to appreciate" because my main squeeze, KAC SR15, and I have an "open relationship".

I can't believe I didn't receive one indignant remark by now from an M1 Garand or M1A/M14 devotee. I must have been too subtle.
 
Nom, the only hipster remark you've made was that one. I'm a big M1 Garand guy and I have to say had the M49/56 (not a big fan of the m49 and it's silly bayonet) 15 years earlier as the M34/41, it would have been a better rifle than the Garand. I have owned one and it was a superb rifle. But, it was too late for the party, being too cool to hang with others until too late. And, being the hipster that it was, it couldn't be convinced to use a round others used and so hung around puffing on the silly 7.5 MAS round. As a result, when it was of no more use to its parent country, nobody else wanted it much because it used a round nobody else but Syria used. Had it been chambered for the NATO round in the first place, it'd always have been a serious competitor to the m14.

Since it was too cool for the job, it's always been an "other mention" rifle. Mine was in original caliber and it was a great rifle.

But, choices were choices and as a result of France's ammo choice, the MAS 49/56 will never be popular. It's a shame, of course, because it is a good rifle that is exacerbated by Century's clumsy rechambering job so that most .308 versions are junk.

So, outside the theoretical world (the one where the Germans might have gotten the bomb, never invaded Russia, the US had focused on Aircraft Carriers earlier, or Lee not invaded Pennsylvania), the M14 is a better rifle than the MAS. It's not that your previous message was subtle - it wasn't - it's just that there was little to argue about it.

My dad said "if bull frogs had a switch blade, then the water moccasin wouldn't eat him." True. But they don't and moccasins like them some frog.
 
Hipster comment was awesome. There are gun snobs out there and gun hipsters.

I dont have huge beef with the AR15/AR10 but i believe as civilians we have better options than what the military has to use.

As far as cast parts being junk point me to a quantitative study showing how much they fail. Like it or not lots of manufacturers are going to cast parts and have been successful doing so.

Reliability, durability are tops for me but i need acceptable long range accuracy as well. Id say at 100 yards i want at least 2" groups but dont demand sub 1". 3-4" groups wont put me where i need to be at 300+ yards.

So i guess thats my question. Whats the run down from most to least accurate? (i dont expect the M1A to top the list and thats OK)
 
I have an M1A Standard that has had some upgrades. I haven't shimmed the gas cyclinder or bedded the action. I got lucky and got an H&R trigger group that breaks at a nice 5 lbs. For me that's close to ideal for a battle rifle/DMR-type gun. It shoots Federal GMM and Federal Powershocks with a running average of around 1.7" groups (10 shots, sandbagged, 100 yards) over the course of about 8 years.

The M1A quickly becomes a money pit. You start adding this, then that, then you quickly soar over $2,000. You start to chase down modern ergonomics with a chassis system and you add another $1k plus extra poundage that makes it a bear to carry around. People claim sub-MOA accuracy with these setups, but they are almost always referencing 3-shot groups. The 10-shot groups tend to open up past 1" which brings you full circle to "what else is out there?"

From everything I've seen firsthand from other shooters and read from various sources, the SCAR 17 can shoot around 1.5 MOA 10-shot groups right out of the box. You get a package that is much lighter and more compact than a similarly equipped M1A. You also get modern ergonomics which make the rifle much faster to manipulate. Yeah, they're expensive, but your M1A will be too. They are reliable enough for SOCOM. If there is a weak point, I'd say it is the adjustable stock comb.

The guns such as the LMT MWS, Larue OBR family and the KAC offerings are great, but I can understand not wanting an AR platform for this caliber...as much as I love my AR15s.

I'm not selling my M1A; I can appreciate it for what it is and for what it isn't. That said, if I were looking to buy a 7.62/.308 semi-auto right now and had no nostalgic draw to the M1A/M14, then I'd be looking heavily at the SCAR.
 
Wildbillz said:
Breakingcontact
Just out of curiosity why not the Fal or the AR10? Are you looking for surgical precision or a blunt instrument?

M1A is a great gun, but I am leery of the cast SA Inc made parts on them now a days. There are several other makers that use forged receivers and now some of the parts. I would cheery pick as many USGI parts as you could get and get some replacement parts for the long term. Then have one built up the way you want it. I can't say who makes the better receiver but there should be enough internet info to make an informed decision. Also ask the builder what he would recommend.

Also a M1 done right in 308win is a good rig. I would stick with as many USGI parts as you can. There getting more expensive but isn't everything. Clips might be come an issue. I was at the show this weekend and there was only one guy with M1 clips, $1.00 ea.

Best of luck
WB
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I would bet SA is having Ruger do the investment casting for their receivers being they have the largest state of the art facilities for it and Rugers castings are stronger then machined forged
 
Modern ergonomics is a bit off, as pistol grip firearms have existed since WWI. The m14 has sporting ergonomics hardly any different than a good shotgun or hunting rifle. There is nothing superior in ergonomics with a pistol grip over a semi-pistol grip and the M14 safety is just as easy to operate.
 
there is the Remington 750. They are accurate, not real heavy and handle well. They are not up to heavy competition but are good hunting rifles. There is a company that builds accurized versions that are more heavy duty. the semi autos I like are the AR10 because of it's accuracy, ruggedness, and not so clunky as European designs that are also much less accurate. Also I like the M14 clones. They are also accurate, reliable, decent weight, I really like how they handle. The real M14 are the only semi auto other than the Garand designed for bayonet use in hand to hand combat. The FNAR, Win. SXR, and Browning BAR are versions of the same rifle and are pretty good rifles. I can't think of any others that are accurate and not way too heavy. But you spend your money how you want.
 
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boricua9mm said:
I have an M1A Standard that has had some upgrades. I haven't shimmed the gas cyclinder or bedded the action. I got lucky and got an H&R trigger group that breaks at a nice 5 lbs. For me that's close to ideal for a battle rifle/DMR-type gun. It shoots Federal GMM and Federal Powershocks with a running average of around 1.7" groups (10 shots, sandbagged, 100 yards) over the course of about 8 years.

The M1A quickly becomes a money pit. You start adding this, then that, then you quickly soar over $2,000. You start to chase down modern ergonomics with a chassis system and you add another $1k plus extra poundage that makes it a bear to carry around. People claim sub-MOA accuracy with these setups, but they are almost always referencing 3-shot groups. The 10-shot groups tend to open up past 1" which brings you full circle to "what else is out there?"

From everything I've seen firsthand from other shooters and read from various sources, the SCAR 17 can shoot around 1.5 MOA 10-shot groups right out of the box. You get a package that is much lighter and more compact than a similarly equipped M1A. You also get modern ergonomics which make the rifle much faster to manipulate. Yeah, they're expensive, but your M1A will be too. They are reliable enough for SOCOM. If there is a weak point, I'd say it is the adjustable stock comb.

The guns such as the LMT MWS, Larue OBR family and the KAC offerings are great, but I can understand not wanting an AR platform for this caliber...as much as I love my AR15s.

I'm not selling my M1A; I can appreciate it for what it is and for what it isn't. That said, if I were looking to buy a 7.62/.308 semi-auto right now and had no nostalgic draw to the M1A/M14, then I'd be looking heavily at the SCAR.
Click to expand...

Good post. Challenging my draw to the M1A without insisting i go AR.

I looked up the price of the SCAR and they seem to run about $2500 vs $1500-1800 for the M1As im looking at.

Perhaps the SCAR is the answer. Sounds like good accuracy and i do like folding stocks. But it is expensive. I prefer the Sig 556 over the AR but know the SCAR in 556 is probably better than both.
 
Modern ergonomics is a bit off, as pistol grip firearms have existed since WWI. The m14 has sporting ergonomics hardly any different than a good shotgun or hunting rifle. There is nothing superior in ergonomics with a pistol grip over a semi-pistol grip and the M14 safety is just as easy to operate.
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Modern ergonomics is about more than a pistol grip hanging below the action. Add a side optics mount with your scope or red dot of choice to an M1A, and you'll likely find yourself hunting for a cheek rest solution. This is one of the HUGE advantages of the VLTOR Modstock, SAGE EBR, Troy Chassis and similar systems. They positon the buttstock more inline with the receiver which alleviates the cheek rest conundrum and also has positive benefits for recoil management.

Also consider the fact that you may need to use your non-firing hand to perform a task while holding the rifle. For the sake of argument, let's assume we're talking about a 12 lb. scoped M1A. Which position do you think your body can best deal with this? With a straight wrist, or with your wrist bent downwards? I've been around the rifle long enough to know that the pistol grip configuration has the advantage beyond residing in a normal firing position.

I looked up the price of the SCAR and they seem to run about $2500 vs $1500-1800 for the M1As im looking at.
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Keep in mind that you can easily spend $250 or more on the M1A's optics mount alone (Sadlak, for example). Then consider the cost of a National Match gas piston, a National Match Spring Guide, a National Match modified or equivalent flash hider, and a possible trigger job and the price points draw close to one another.
 
Ah, but that presupposes a desire for optics. If I need a Walt Middy rifle, I suppose the M14 just won't do. For my uses, I have returned to the semi-pistol grip (having owned FAL's, AR's, a PSL as well as an NDM-86). It does exactly what I want it to do. I suppose I'll just disagree that a pistol grip is any more ergonomic than a semi-pistol grip.
 
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Perilous Presumptions Prevent Precise Perception

Ash said:
Nom, the only hipster remark you've made was that one. I'm a big M1 Garand guy and I have to say had the M49/56 (not a big fan of the m49 and it's silly bayonet) 15 years earlier as the M34/41, it would have been a better rifle than the Garand. I have owned one and it was a superb rifle. But, it was too late for the party, being too cool to hang with others until too late. And, being the hipster that it was, it couldn't be convinced to use a round others used and so hung around puffing on the silly 7.5 MAS round. As a result, when it was of no more use to its parent country, nobody else wanted it much because it used a round nobody else but Syria used. Had it been chambered for the NATO round in the first place, it'd always have been a serious competitor to the m14.

Since it was too cool for the job, it's always been an "other mention" rifle. Mine was in original caliber and it was a great rifle.

But, choices were choices and as a result of France's ammo choice, the MAS 49/56 will never be popular. It's a shame, of course, because it is a good rifle that is exacerbated by Century's clumsy rechambering job so that most .308 versions are junk.

So, outside the theoretical world (the one where the Germans might have gotten the bomb, never invaded Russia, the US had focused on Aircraft Carriers earlier, or Lee not invaded Pennsylvania), the M14 is a better rifle than the MAS. It's not that your previous message was subtle - it wasn't - it's just that there was little to argue about it.

My dad said "if bull frogs had a switch blade, then the water moccasin wouldn't eat him." True. But they don't and moccasins like them some frog.
Click to expand...

Ash I did indeed write that a MAS 49/56 “is just as reliable as an M1A, maybe more so” but that does not imply I think it is a better choice than an M14 for a battle rifle. That the original chambering was not desirable to other users does not detract from the quality of the MAS 49/56 design. The fact is both the MAS 49/56 and M14 were obsolescent designs the moment they were conceived. The cartridges they used have nothing to do with this. The M14 would never have been adopted instead of the FAL if operational merit was the only determinant factor. Even the FAL was less than cutting-edge technology. You are indeed correct about me making only one hipster remark, as in a remark with the word hipster included. Other than that, I think you are a bit presumptuous if you think you are some arbiter of what is and is not hip, and to school me on the MAS 49/56 and M14/M1A. By the way, the French did chamber some MAS 49/56s in 7.62x51 but by that time they already knew they would be moving toward adoption of a more modern design and cartridge. The original chambering in 7.5 was just as logistically logical as His Majesty Douglas MacArthur’s insistence that the Garand be chambered in .30-06. Eventual foreign sale was not a consideration in either decision. Perhaps you are unaware that Uncle Sugar used to pay me to build M14NMs and M21s, shoot them, and train snake eaters (water moccasin is a delicacy at Ft. Bragg) to sneak around with them stalking the most dangerous predator. I know a little more than a little about the Super M1 Garand aka M14.
 
breakingcontact said:
Automatically I'm leaning towards the M1A but want to consider other options.

No AR10 type, no FAL

I considered the FN FNAR, but it's not threaded, so that's out.

What other semi-autos are at least as accurate and reliable as the M1A?
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Guess I missed it: You've never owned or shot an AR-10 or an FAL, yet you are eliminating them from selection of .308 semi-auto...?

At the same time you will not specify what the rifle will be for.

Get a Rem. 742 in .308, you'll do fine, and have an ammo budget.
 
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