.32 acp... deadly
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Madcap_Magician
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I think we have a couple non-High Road comments that are unwarranted toward the OP.
Hanzo581
Member
MedWheeler said:
Awesome story man, so you shot it a few times then it drowned. You seem almost proud/happy about the story. Look, I get that you have to destroy dangerous animals in human populated areas, but I think some of you guys get off on it.
Walt Sherrill
Member
Hanzo581 said:
You also seem almost proud/happy to have made that observation which is implicitly negative/critical. I wonder if some of you guys get off by doing that, too.
Just curious: what would YOU have done in that situation?
Hanzo581
Member
Walt Sherrill said:
As I said, and what you seemed to gloss over, is I understand some animals need to be put down. That said I wouldn't come into a thread and tell the story that quite frankly comes off as a boast. Guy is talking about the effectiveness of a .32 acp and this guy comes in with his story about a 12ga+.38 special which has basically no relevance at all.
I mean if you like reading stories about animals not being humanely killed so be it, that's your business, but I have a right to post my thoughts (well until the mods delete it which they likely will).
Walt Sherrill
Member
I didn't gloss over your comment about animals needing to be put down. That question seemed primarily intended to give you a way to make the following comments which were essentially critical. You, however, DID gloss over (failed to respond to) my question: "... what would YOU have done in that situation?"
The discussion was about .32 acp, but it also addressed the problems and difficulties of putting animals down. Which is why the OP noted that he often brought several different weapons with him when responding to calls from local police. The part you took exception to addressed an LEO tasked, in his official capacity, with putting down a dangerous animal in a populated area. Should he have refused to fire?
I read nothing boastful in that tale. It seemed to be an example of how difficult the task of putting down an animal can be -- particularly if you're dealing with a wild hog. I can understand how our personal experiences and knowledge causes us to read (i.e., infer) what we expect to read, but I wonder why our inferences/interpretations were so different?
I'll ask the question again, in a slightly different way: what would you have done differently had you been required to respond to that call as an LEO?
The discussion was about .32 acp, but it also addressed the problems and difficulties of putting animals down. Which is why the OP noted that he often brought several different weapons with him when responding to calls from local police. The part you took exception to addressed an LEO tasked, in his official capacity, with putting down a dangerous animal in a populated area. Should he have refused to fire?
I read nothing boastful in that tale. It seemed to be an example of how difficult the task of putting down an animal can be -- particularly if you're dealing with a wild hog. I can understand how our personal experiences and knowledge causes us to read (i.e., infer) what we expect to read, but I wonder why our inferences/interpretations were so different?
I'll ask the question again, in a slightly different way: what would you have done differently had you been required to respond to that call as an LEO?
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Hanzo581
Member
Look pal, I'm not going to argue with you. If this ending of his story with smiley face at the end doesn't read as a jovial comment to you, I can't help you.
As for what I would have done? I would have shot the animal, I am not a ballistics expert but I cannot see why the shotgun could not have been used to ensure the animal was dead before sinking and drowning.
Got quite a bit of attention there from the other boaters coming in from their Sunday fishing trips!
As for what I would have done? I would have shot the animal, I am not a ballistics expert but I cannot see why the shotgun could not have been used to ensure the animal was dead before sinking and drowning.
Walt Sherrill
Member
The LEO in question said, "My third struck right behind the skull, shattering the spine, and causing the animal's head to go beneath the water. The animal lived just long enough to drown, judging by the volume of water we later drained from its lungs."
I think it's reasonable to assume that he had thought the animal was already dead -- as it was unlikely to be moving much with that sort of wound -- and only found out later that it had gotten water in it's lungs. We don't know "how long" that was -- it could have been very a relatively short period.
The smiley face didn't really have much to do with HOW the animal died, but with the ruckus the whole undertaking caused. I doubt the other boaters would have been any less attentive if his third shot had been done with a shotgun.
You also GLOSSED over the part where the LEO said, with repeated here with emphasis added: "I decided I was too close to use the shotgun, and set it aside for my .38 revolver, loaded with Winchester +P 95-grain Silvertip hollow-points."
A 95 gr Silvertip hollowpoint is a potent round, and if well placed, should have been sufficient. It seemed to be well-place, severing the spinal cord at the top. If a shot that severed the spinal cord didn't do the job, we can't be sure that 00 buckshot would have done much better. On the other hand, using the shotgun while in the boat, with the animal right next to (or under) it might have been a bit harder shot, awkward at best, more dangerous to the boat, and more risky for both the LEO and his boat mate.
I understand, you don't want to argue, so no reply is necessary.
I think it's reasonable to assume that he had thought the animal was already dead -- as it was unlikely to be moving much with that sort of wound -- and only found out later that it had gotten water in it's lungs. We don't know "how long" that was -- it could have been very a relatively short period.
The smiley face didn't really have much to do with HOW the animal died, but with the ruckus the whole undertaking caused. I doubt the other boaters would have been any less attentive if his third shot had been done with a shotgun.
You also GLOSSED over the part where the LEO said, with repeated here with emphasis added: "I decided I was too close to use the shotgun, and set it aside for my .38 revolver, loaded with Winchester +P 95-grain Silvertip hollow-points."
A 95 gr Silvertip hollowpoint is a potent round, and if well placed, should have been sufficient. It seemed to be well-place, severing the spinal cord at the top. If a shot that severed the spinal cord didn't do the job, we can't be sure that 00 buckshot would have done much better. On the other hand, using the shotgun while in the boat, with the animal right next to (or under) it might have been a bit harder shot, awkward at best, more dangerous to the boat, and more risky for both the LEO and his boat mate.
I understand, you don't want to argue, so no reply is necessary.
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Hanzo581
Member
He said the hog had water filled lungs and appeared to drown, I was just taking him at his word and deferring to is expertise as I am sure he's seen things like this before. If it was a kill shot then so be it.
I'd also have to assume he had good reasoning to switch from 00 buck to .38 when obviously one of those would have done the job exponentially better than the other.
Look, we're getting way off topic, I read the story, saw the smiley and took offense. I'm not a PETA nut or anything I just like to see suffering limited when it comes to dispatching animals.
I'd also have to assume he had good reasoning to switch from 00 buck to .38 when obviously one of those would have done the job exponentially better than the other.
Look, we're getting way off topic, I read the story, saw the smiley and took offense. I'm not a PETA nut or anything I just like to see suffering limited when it comes to dispatching animals.
MedWheeler
Member
Hanzo, I wasn't thrilled to take the shots. Like you, I don't even hunt. I deferred on the shotgun on the suggestion of my supervisor, who was standing on the other side of the waterway. He believed a straight-down shot (the animal was beneath me) might risk damage to the boat, already not the most stable shooting platform. I agreed. If I was really someone who "gets off" on this, don't you think I would have used the biggest, baddest, boomiest weapon available to me?
It takes one breath under water to fill lungs with water. Drowning was an assumption made at that time, and I have done little analysis of that incident in the 24 years since it took place. Now that you have me thinking, it is quite possible that, had a necropsy been performed, that COD may have been listed as "cardiac arrest secondary to GSW to the spine." But, I stand by the idea that at least one more breath had been taken after that last shot.
Edit: I see Walt has figured out pretty much what I just added, and he wasn't even there.
You also stated this:
Posts 12 and 21 also discussed animal "dispatching" with weapons other than the .32ACP (one was with a piece of metal pipe!), and both preceded mine.
As you said, you "took offense".
It takes one breath under water to fill lungs with water. Drowning was an assumption made at that time, and I have done little analysis of that incident in the 24 years since it took place. Now that you have me thinking, it is quite possible that, had a necropsy been performed, that COD may have been listed as "cardiac arrest secondary to GSW to the spine." But, I stand by the idea that at least one more breath had been taken after that last shot.
Edit: I see Walt has figured out pretty much what I just added, and he wasn't even there.
You also stated this:
Posts 12 and 21 also discussed animal "dispatching" with weapons other than the .32ACP (one was with a piece of metal pipe!), and both preceded mine.
As you said, you "took offense".
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fallout mike
Member
People on a gun forum having a problem with humanely putting down critically wounded animals? Wow! We may have been infiltrated by the dark side...
fallout mike
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I've also been wanting a .32acp handgun.
razorback2003
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Is your handgun limited to the number of rounds it holds or do you use a regular PPK magazine that holds 6-7 rounds?
Are you able to also target shoot with this handgun on the range to make sure it still functions and you are able to hit want you need to hit?
I knew it was pretty difficult or almost impossible to own a handgun in England, so if this is your way to do it legally, that is great.
Are you able to also target shoot with this handgun on the range to make sure it still functions and you are able to hit want you need to hit?
I knew it was pretty difficult or almost impossible to own a handgun in England, so if this is your way to do it legally, that is great.
Hanzo581
Member
Fair enough MedWheeler, the last line of your post threw me off a little bit, and the smiley didn't help. But after your explanation I am clearly incorrect with my assessment. My apologies.
kBob
Member
I had a friend in Germany that was allowed to carry concealed, because he was a clock mechanic. He visited ancient tower clocks and got them to work correctly and on time. His concealed gun was a High Standard .22 short auto with a dedicated suppressor that used the rubber seals from porcalin beer tops as replaceable wipes. Back then it was always happy work to provide him with a new set of wipes even if it meant loosing the bottle deposit. He used .22 Short gallery rounds in the gun. It was actually used for dispatching pigeons that had taken up residence in the clock towers and such. He practiced at our club range and did rather well at the old rapid fire pistol turning target game.
I have had to dispatch a couple of deer and a large dog hit by cars. In two cases I used the old .45 ACP Speer 200 grain HP "Flying Ashtray" to the heart lung area and it was very quick and very distructive. The dog had to be dispatched with a 255 grain SWC from a hot loaded .45 Colt in a Black hawk, again heart lung and again very quick.
My worst case involved a rabid raccoon, a female deputy, a S&W 66, an 870 riot gun, a radio, a miffed dispatcher, two male deputies two highway patrol men, a city cop outside the city limits, an animal control officer and Charlie's Angels and unfortunately I no longer drink for I usually only tell it if someone else is buying.
Used to be a number of "cow killer" .22 autos out there for use in slaughter houses and such. These had an attachment on the muzzle that allowed one to securely place the muzzle in contact with the animal's skull while the shot was made.
I think that what the OP is telling us that I think is important is that he IS seeing penetration in bone and flesh to indicate that the .32ACP is NOT useless as a defensive round. I have long subscribed to the second rule of gun fighting being "Have a gun, any is better than none" ( First is "avoid gunfights") Having carried every thing from .22 Short barfettas and .25 ACP Bernadelli VPs up to a host of things starting with .4 I admit to having a warm feeling for larger calibers, but I do think the .32 ACP is a useable cartridge in a gun you can hit with. I am jealous of that lovely PPk BTW, nice looking that.
-kBob
I have had to dispatch a couple of deer and a large dog hit by cars. In two cases I used the old .45 ACP Speer 200 grain HP "Flying Ashtray" to the heart lung area and it was very quick and very distructive. The dog had to be dispatched with a 255 grain SWC from a hot loaded .45 Colt in a Black hawk, again heart lung and again very quick.
My worst case involved a rabid raccoon, a female deputy, a S&W 66, an 870 riot gun, a radio, a miffed dispatcher, two male deputies two highway patrol men, a city cop outside the city limits, an animal control officer and Charlie's Angels and unfortunately I no longer drink for I usually only tell it if someone else is buying.
Used to be a number of "cow killer" .22 autos out there for use in slaughter houses and such. These had an attachment on the muzzle that allowed one to securely place the muzzle in contact with the animal's skull while the shot was made.
I think that what the OP is telling us that I think is important is that he IS seeing penetration in bone and flesh to indicate that the .32ACP is NOT useless as a defensive round. I have long subscribed to the second rule of gun fighting being "Have a gun, any is better than none" ( First is "avoid gunfights") Having carried every thing from .22 Short barfettas and .25 ACP Bernadelli VPs up to a host of things starting with .4 I admit to having a warm feeling for larger calibers, but I do think the .32 ACP is a useable cartridge in a gun you can hit with. I am jealous of that lovely PPk BTW, nice looking that.
-kBob
Speedo66
Member
One of my agencies published rules was that we were not permitted to dispatch wounded animals.
I worked in NYC and they were worried about ricochets off the pavement. Since any firing of a weapon off range required copious paperwork, I was fine with it.
I worked in NYC and they were worried about ricochets off the pavement. Since any firing of a weapon off range required copious paperwork, I was fine with it.
Walt Sherrill
Member
Hanzo581 said:
Nicely put. And, I'm sorry that I gave you a hard time you didn't really deserve, but maybe it prompted a further explanation from the LEO in question.
MedWheeler
Member
Hanzo, thank you for the "my bad." You manned up better than many. Have a good one.
Deer_Freak
Member.
I have dispatched a large number or steers and hogs with a 22 LR. Some of the steers I have dispatched were over 600 lb. All of the hogs I have dispatched were between 230 lb and 300 lb..\
Given all these large animals I have dispatched with a 22 LR one would think the 22 LR is a powerful weapon. But it's not powerful at all. I would never hunt large game with a 22 LR.
The OP speaks of the power of the 32 acp fired from a walther pistol. I wonder if he knows a 22 wmr fired from a rifle with a 22" barrel has over 100 ft lb more energy than a 32 acp fired from a walther pistol. The 22 wmr fired from a rifle has about the same amount of energy as a 9 mm fired from a 4" barrel.
Given all these large animals I have dispatched with a 22 LR one would think the 22 LR is a powerful weapon. But it's not powerful at all. I would never hunt large game with a 22 LR.
The OP speaks of the power of the 32 acp fired from a walther pistol. I wonder if he knows a 22 wmr fired from a rifle with a 22" barrel has over 100 ft lb more energy than a 32 acp fired from a walther pistol. The 22 wmr fired from a rifle has about the same amount of energy as a 9 mm fired from a 4" barrel.
razorback2003
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Definitely tell us what it takes to own this PPK in the UK, if you get to shoot it at a range, if the magazine is plugged to a couple of shots. Also do you have to keep the PPK at a gun club?
I guess this shows that where there is a will there is always a way.
I guess this shows that where there is a will there is always a way.
interlock
Member
The OP speaks of the power of the 32 acp fired from a walther pistol. I wonder if he knows a 22 wmr fired from a rifle with a 22" barrel has over 100 ft lb more energy than a 32 acp fired from a walther pistol. The 22 wmr fired from a rifle has about the same amount of energy as a 9 mm fired from a 4" barrel.
Hi, Yes for sure. I am pretty well up on various weapons... ballistics and rounds. Lets keep this in context. the pistol is used for destruction of injured animals, normally from around 15 feet or so. This is why i take different tools with me. Many of the animals i destroy are in built up areas. the pistol sits in the holster and i can just draw it out, cock it and fire. It is not 3 feet long... it is relatively quiet. it can quickly go back into the holster. A .22 rf is really prone to riccochet (Rick O'Shea.... Irish rifle champion) a.32 acp using a hollow point bullet has expended most of its energy in the animal and expanded so riccochet is much less of an issue.
Definitely tell us what it takes to own this PPK in the UK, if you get to shoot it at a range, if the magazine is plugged to a couple of shots. Also do you have to keep the PPK at a gun club?
I guess this shows that where there is a will there is always a way.
I keep it at home, the magazine is limited to 2 rounds. I can do a bit of practise with it but my conditions say its use must be in connection with animal destrustion. I like the ppk. It is a smashing little pistol.... but really it is a tool. I would not jump through all of them hoops just to have one.
interlock
Hi, Yes for sure. I am pretty well up on various weapons... ballistics and rounds. Lets keep this in context. the pistol is used for destruction of injured animals, normally from around 15 feet or so. This is why i take different tools with me. Many of the animals i destroy are in built up areas. the pistol sits in the holster and i can just draw it out, cock it and fire. It is not 3 feet long... it is relatively quiet. it can quickly go back into the holster. A .22 rf is really prone to riccochet (Rick O'Shea.... Irish rifle champion
) a.32 acp using a hollow point bullet has expended most of its energy in the animal and expanded so riccochet is much less of an issue.Definitely tell us what it takes to own this PPK in the UK, if you get to shoot it at a range, if the magazine is plugged to a couple of shots. Also do you have to keep the PPK at a gun club?
I guess this shows that where there is a will there is always a way.
I keep it at home, the magazine is limited to 2 rounds. I can do a bit of practise with it but my conditions say its use must be in connection with animal destrustion. I like the ppk. It is a smashing little pistol.... but really it is a tool. I would not jump through all of them hoops just to have one.
interlock
razorback2003
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I know people who have killed deer with 22 LR handgun and rifle from a decent distance. I also know people have used 22 LR on hogs. A 32 auto i'm sure is a great choice for what you are doing and easy to hide when you go about in your town to help put down animals. Have you thought about putting a suppressor on the pistol?
mljdeckard
Member
It's still a handgun. It's not ideal. A needle is fatal if you can put it in the right place.
It's easy to say "This is a great cartridge"........when you have no choice in the matter.
It's easy to say "This is a great cartridge"........when you have no choice in the matter.
Black Butte
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So the upshot of it all is that the .32 ACP is a jolly good round.
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