.38 special vs 9X18 makarov

[LoneCoon]

I found out that you can shoot .380 ammo in the PA-63 in a pinch, so ammo in a hurry is something to think about less.

Personally, I'd rather just have a .38+P and be done with it.

 

[Borachon]

So in other words, none of you can answer my question.

I'm not disappointed. It's what I figured would happen.

 

[gunhappy]

if you are really concerned, a swap barrel is made for the mak that is chambered in 380 acp.

 

[Dirty Bob]

Borachon:

I don't know anyone who's chrono'd the extended barrels vs. stock barrels, but the length difference is not that great (~ 14% increase). I would not expect enough increase in velocity to matter. Where the short .38s have it over the Maks is in bullet weight, so they can potentially have some expansion along with adequate penetration. With the .380 and 9x18mm Mak, it's either very difficult or impossible to have both expansion and adequate penetration.

I like the Mak a lot, and carry one on occasion. I carry with FMJ "ball" ammo for penetration. What the Mak has going for it is more shots than the .38, in a package that I shoot better than a snubby.

I think either pistol will do, if you will do.

Best wishes,
Dirty Bob

 

[CajunBass]

Just tell her to get a gun she likes. Learn to shoot it safely. Learn to shoot it accuratly. Learn when to shoot it. Learn when NOT to shoot it. Learn to enjoy shooting it.

 

[Borachon]

Dirty Bob,
I guess my question about .38 Special vs. 9x18 centers around the issue of bullet weight and velocity. I've been hearing how 9x18 fails totally when compared to .38 Special in a 4in barrel. Most of the .38 Special velocities I've seen are from "average" bullets. Not Plus P. Or Plus Plus P or anything like that. So the velocity figures that I see are far less. HOWEVER...I decided to search and I did find a +P test.
In this test
http://www.thegunzone.com/speer135jhp38sp.html it shows that the average velocity from a SIX INCH BARREL for a 135grain .38 ends up being nearly equal to the velocity recorded for a 115gr Silver Bear fired from a 3.5 inch Makarov barrel (http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=110185).

So I began to wonder if anyone has actually TESTED the 4 inch model of .38 versus a 4 inch model of Makarov. I can theorize as well as the next person that the additional .5 inches on a Makarov will increase velocity. Using bad math I can further speculate that if we divide a makarov barrel into .5 inch units we get 7 units. (7 times .5 gives us the 3.5 inch barrel.) So if I divide the average speed of a 115 grain bullet (1011 feet per second), then I get an average excelleration of 144 fps every 1/2 of an inch. So...using bad math...if I add 144 fps to 1011, I get an estimate of 1155 fps of 115 gr bullet. That is nearly 300 fps faster than the Speer 125gr PLUS POWDER bullet fired from a 6 inch barrel. (862 fps) and nearly 400 fps faster than the .38 125gr fired from a two inch barrel. (793 fps) In fact, the theoretical velocity that I've hypothesized comes very close to 9x19mm rounds. On this test http://www.ballisticreview.com/9mm.html you can see that the theoretical 1155fps actually EXCEEDS some of the 9x19mm. (And the Makarov's barrel diameter is actually .363 caliber versus the .38's .355 caliber...but that's another discussion. )

So I am wondering though why the claim that the .38 is VASTLY superior has come about. A lot of the reported tests don't seem to support that. Also, one problem that was mentioned was failure to expand. With older 120gr Silver Bear Makarov ammunition, I've never noticed a failure to expand. And to expand quite well actually. If one of these bullets is being fired from a 4 in barrel and achieving even HIGHER velocities than the ones I can fire from my 3.5 inch standard Makarov barrel, then I don't see how they would become less expansive. I will grant that the .38 can fire larger bullets. But apparently they also fire these bullets at lower speeds. Not surprisingly, a larger bullet actually moves slower than a lighter bullet when fired from the same gun and using the same powder charge.

I am however totally aware that my estimate may be COMPLETELY wrong. Which is why I was asking (no...make that CHALLENGING) someone with both a 4 inch Makarov, a 4 inch barrel .38 Special and a chronometer could go out and get some real life figures.

 

[Borachon]

Apparently someone had this same question about .38 and 9mmMak before about two years ago.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=19236

 

[alwilliam]

I have a pal that uses these in his 9x18

 

[kmrcstintn]

I just love how these comparison of "X" caliber to "Y" caliber seem to always attract statements of comparing calibers X to Y by way of other calibers like W and Z which were not asked to be compared in the first place...I don't get it!!!

 

[Borachon]

I just love how these comparison of "X" caliber to "Y" caliber seem to always attract statements of comparing calibers X to Y by way of other calibers like W and Z which were not asked to be compared in the first place...I don't get it!!!

Since your post came two posts after mine on the same day, I assume you mean that I quoted data from a site about 9x19mm velocity data and that you find it odd that I would have brought this third caliber into a comparison between .38 Special and 9mm Makarov. Although you didn't quote me directly.

My purpose in bringing in the "third caliber" is easily explained. For one, the comparison was made before I posted my first comment. If you read the first page of this thread you can see that Armed Bear made the statement that said:

.38 Sp +P is more powerful than either one. It's up there with 9x19 in energy, but with a heavier bullet than most 9mm as well. 9mm+P packs a bigger wallop than .38 Sp +P, but with a lighter bullet.

The introduction of 9x19 into the conversation was already there before I posted my first comment and seemed to be another standard against which .38 and 9x18 was being compared. And I think Armed Bear was correct in bringing this comparison into the discussion. 9x18 Makarov data is relatively spotty at best. There are some websites with velocity and penetration data taken from fans of the Makarov, but little or no hard data from the more recognized authorities on bullet performance. Few professional organizations have compared them. Comparing the performance of a 9x18 to a 9x19 (or Makarov to a .380) is a simple and easy way for people who are more familiar with the 9x19 or .380 to get an idea of the performance characteristics of a 9x18. Getting some idea of what a 115gr Makarov bullet can do from a 4 inch barrel should theorectically be very close to what a 115gr 9x19 bullet should do if they are both moving at the same velocity.

Getting real data is something that I have given up on attaining though. I don't have all the material needed and won't be able to afford them for awhile. And no one that I have spoken with has yet had all the qualifications necessary to perform chronograph tests. They lack either the 4 inch Makarov barrel, the chronograph, or the Makarov. But until someone can put a 4 inch .38 Special next to a 4 inch Makarov and shoot some comparable sized ammunition, then the performance comparison between these two is up in the air as far as I'm concerned.

For the moment I'm going to content myself with the fact that my Makarov shoots more bullets than a .38, shoots them at either the same speed or faster (sometime hundreds of fps faster), makes a 9.2mm hole (larger than a .38 Special) and shoots a 120 gr bullet that is within 5 to 10 grains in size of the majority of .38 Special ammo out there. How did I ever end up questioning the superiority of the .38 Special revolver after seeing all of these Makarov "failings"? *rolls eyes*

 

[Dr_2_B]

But if you can ever find a .38 that's as fun to shoot as a mak, get me one too.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I think our friend was speaking about the more common 125 grain .357 loads. Corbon 125gr 9mm leaves the barrel at about 1300fps. Thats right on what the 125 .357 loads will produce in a snub. The .357 does have the potential to be loaded to a much more powerful level though.

Even if a Mak produces ballistics simlar to the .38 there is no comparison in the MAKs ability to put rounds on target accurately and quickly. I can hit the target with multiple shots much quicker with the MAK than I can with most other guns I've shot. Given a choice between the two I would carry the MAK. I often carry my snub .38 in the warmer months though.

I think the Russians wouldn't have kept the MAK around for so many years if it didn't work.

 

[Seismic Sam]

The foot-lbs comparison is irrelevant

compared to the real issue here, which is the provenance of the caliber itself. The 38 Special predates the 1911 itself, and there will ALWAYS be guns of almost ANY brand chambered in 38 Special, which will mean that the ammunition supply will be:
1. Cheap
2. Plentiful
3. Have a huge amount of variety to choose from

The 9x18 is an Eastern Bloc caliber born out of isolationism and the need for dirt cheap ammo and guns, and with the demise of the Soviet Union and free market demand the 9x18 will eventually go the way of other military relic cartridges. Let's face it, you will NEVER see a 9x18 Glock, Colt, Smith, Taurus, Ruger, or any other mainstream brand because that market niche has been filled by the 38, .380 or the 9mm caliber nearly a century ago.

The comment about Silver Bear ammo pretty much being the cream of the 9x18 crop pretty much tells you where this caliber is headed.

 

[foob]

Silver bear ammo cream of the crop?? It is the cheapest of the crop, cheaper than 9x19.

 

[jon_in_wv]

The Makarov has been used by the former Soviet Union (since 1951) and China and several other countries for over 40 years now. It is still in service in many countries around the world. I don't think it's in danger of disappearing anytime soon. In fact if we used that reasoning we should avoid ALL surplus firearms that aren't chambered for popular US cartridges. (7.62x39, 7.62x54R, 7.5 Swiss, etc..)

Go ahead, More for me.

 

[weregunner]

The Soviet Union choices on sidearms and ammo is suspect when they decided on the 9 by 18. Since pistols were more a badge of office rather than the main weapon I would want something with better ballistics.In the latest military journals the rank and file Russians are glad to be replacing the Maks with 2 newer pistol designs in 9mm.Luger.One of the Russkie probs was the lack of decent JHPs.Now that we have them efficency in terminal ballistics is much improved.We have the advantage of having a nice concealable low recoil pistol with decent combat loads. The new designed rifles Russia has are much improved over the AK series.This included the safety.No Klack noise when using it.The Russkies do have interesting and useful special purpose cartridges in rifles and handguns.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Points taken but the point I was trying to make is that the Makarov, and AK for that matter, have been in service since the mid 1940s. Thats and EXTREMELY long time. Yes there are better choices now. I would hope in 60 years we could make improvements but the fact remains that for whatever reason they chose it, they also chose to keep it for a LONG LONG time. The USSR has been in numerous conflicts and has used both of those weapons during all of them. My point was that I don't believe the MAK, or AK, would have had that longevity without some degree of effectiveness. That effectiveness and history will ensure that there will be plenty of MAK and AKs around for a long, long time.

 

[gezzer]

I still like a 148 grain Hornady hollow base wadcutter over 3 grns Bullseye, loaded hollow base up.

Shoot a watermellon with it and try any 380 or 9x18 load and see the difference.

 

[Dirty Bob]

I still like a 148 grain Hornady hollow base wadcutter over 3 grns Bullseye, loaded hollow base up.

Yep, that's a classic, with perhaps the best expansion of any pistol round, but I suspect it has inadequate penetration. You may want to try it in a Fackler box, against a more conventional round, and see if that's really what you want to carry. If I were to handload .38 for carry, it would be hard-cast bevel-base wadcutters -- or plated wadcutters -- driven to about 700-750 fps.

I still like the Mak's capacity, quick follow-up shots, and higher degree of accuracy in my hands. I find the Makarov to be an easy pistol to shoot well, and I believe that placement is more important than caliber.

Best regards,
Dirty Bob

 

[jon_in_wv]

The MAK and the 38 special have different strengths. The MAK is usually easier to shoot quickly and accurately. It carries more rounds and reloads much easier. The 38 can be loaded with heavier rounds like our friend Dirty Bob here stated or it can be loaded with lighter rounds that are more powerful that what is capable with the MAK (example: Corbons Powr'ball and DPX, and Speers 135gr Gold Dot) I own and carry both guns depending on the weather.

 

[weregunner]

Let's not forget the heel clip to release the magazine on the Makarov.That takes lots of practice.Revolvers take speed loaders or Bianchi speed strips.There is very good info in the gun magazines on using the strips or reloaders.The Makarov magazine change takes a little doing with having to pull the mag out and operate the release at the same time.It can be done.Practice. Practice. Thought I saw a gunsmithing article somewhere about installing a mag release by the trigger guard, but I could be wrong.I own Makarovs and 2 snubbies.Gotta go keep up to par.Adios.

 

[Dirty Bob]

Good point by weregunner:

The Makarov magazine change takes a little doing with having to pull the mag out and operate the release at the same time.

That's absolutely right. On the other hand, I see the Makarov mag change to still be easier than loading a small revolver from a SpeedStrip.

When I wrote the Makarov article for Modern Survival, I pointed out the heel-mounted mag release as an advantage, because it's almost impossible to release accidentally. I've heard of several cases of mags dropping out after the button was depressed by a seat belt, etc. (especially likely for lefties). I don't know of any cases of civilians having to perform a mag change during a fight. I carry a spare mag or SpeedStrip primarily for reloading after a fight, while waiting for the police, in case some friends of the BGs show up.

This is exactly what happened to an acquaintance, after "winning" a fist fight in Santa Rosa, CA. The assailant fled, but showed up again right away with two carloads of his closest friends, and the winner took a beer bottle to the side of the face. He nearly died from blood loss before reaching the hospital.

Either the Mak or the .38 will do, but for the recoil-shy, the Mak is a whole lot easier to shoot. I've also found that less experienced shooters get much quicker and more accurate hits with the Makarov. I would consider an experienced shooter to be well-armed with either system.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

 

[Borachon]

I have a split-s ring and grip system on my Makarov that makes reloads very fast. Reloading can get down to very small time increments with a good S-ring arrangement.

 

[Borachon]

This arrangement is on a Hi Cap Makarov but it works just as well with a single-stack Makarov that has a thumbrest, Hi-Cap style grip.

This type of arrangement also makes it impossible for the S-ring to move into the magazine well and catch on your mag while you are reloading.

All you have to do is pull on the S-ring until the mag drops free (which happens very quickly) and reinsert your backup mag into the well.

When I ran a little IPSC course the police had set up around here, I came in third on time and fifth on accuracy out of about 12 people. Since I'd never run an IPSC course before, I considered that pretty good.

 

[foob]

I don't really get the s-ring. The pictures show a ring connected at 2 points. I can imagine 1 point is the mag release, what is the other point? The magazine?