.40 "Short & Weak" or "Short & Wimpy"...does this nickname make any sense anymore??!!

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All major self-defense/LEO calibers are insufficient to stop bad guys in my opinion. I'm a LEO and one of the first things we learn is that a handgun is a defensive weapon only. If you're going into a situation where you know there could be trouble you should always grab a shotgun or a rifle. That being said there is little or no gain to gain by choosing one platform over another. In my limited experience the biggest difference ive found is felt recoil, with the .40 obviously being snappier than the 9 or 45. I think waaaaaaay too much energy is expended in discussing how the .45 has the kinetic energy of a 155mm howitzer, or how the 9 couldnt stop a galloping gerbil. Much more discussion should be on how can someone learn the best way to put two rounds in a bad guys chest during high stress sits.
 
Much more discussion should be on how can someone learn the best way to put two rounds in a bad guys chest during high stress sits.


and there you have it. :banghead: Who says these debates are useless ? :D
 
[singing]Everything the .40 can do the 10mm can do better...

Glock20brass.jpg

The 10mm is the result of a hot and torrid love affair between the .45 ACP and the .357 Magnum. Though he never achieved the popularity his parent's share, he continues to earn the favor of those enlightened enough to recognize a good thing when they see it. The 10mm Auto doesn't have the nostalgia and military history of the 9x19 or the .45 ACP, nor does it have the name and hype of a big name brand company like SIG or Smith and Wesson stamped on its casehead. It earns what it gets and keeps it by performance alone, which has always spoke well enough for itself.

When you don't have to be popular to understand your place in the world, there is the 10mm Auto. Steak and potatoes only please...tofu eating granola munching hippy wannabes and .40 Short and Weak fans need not apply :)
 
Tofu, mercy, that stuff tastes terrible! Nope, taste for tofu has nothing to do with why I am OK with the .40 S&W. Not a fanboy, just OK with it. It was chosen for me as a duty load, and it just so happens the P229 fits my very hands well. A good fit enhances practical accuracy.

Nothing against the 10mm; I am following with interest the 10mm conversions being done to all-stainless .45 P220s, and also attentive to the announced release by Colt of a new generation of the Delta Elite. OTOH, being so near retirement, I may avoid new autopistols, and concentrate on things like sixguns shooting stout .45 Colt loads.
 
I don't worry about popularity, either. I carried an S&W M58 .41 mag for much of the 1980's, and back then, and today, I found myself in spirited disagreements with people who insist there is/was no such thing.
 
200grn bullet at 1000fps is going to beat out any energy a 40sw can deliver
Hornaday makes a .45ACP +P 200gr XTP going 1000fps :)

And then if we get into .45 Super we can match any 10mm load with just a heavier recoil spring :D
 
:uhoh:

Jokes and good natured ribbing being turned into perceived insults to heavily caffeinated THR members...Jeepers, I can feel it coming!

:eek:

:D
 
I killed a medium sized hog with a Glock 27 .40. 180gr. golden sabres. 2 shots.

The hogs are getting educated. One look at the Delta emblems on my gun and they just lay down and die. They know how messy getting shot with a 10mm can be! :evil: :neener: :D

bob
 
Who knows or cares! This topic is like " bigfoot or ufo's"

Here is some info about DT's 200 gr .40 S&W - All you 10mm people or .40 "short and weak" people need to get a sharp pencil and paper to write this down so YOU DON'T FORGET - and pay attention.


.40 S&W 200gr Controlled Exp. JHP 50rds. $29.95
The 200gr Controlled Exp. JHP @ 1050fps from a Glock 23!
990fps 435 ft/lbs from a 3.5"bbl.
1100fps 538 ft/lbs from a 4.5"bbl.
Now available!
Caliber : .40 S&W
Bullet : Controlled Expansion JHP
Ballistics : 200gr. @ 1050fps / 490 ft/lbs- Glock 23 (4.0"bbl)
Box of 50rds.
 
True the 10mm is a far better cartridge, too bad it wasn't accepted by the shooting public!Or the gun makers, for some reason the 40 was seen as a more powerful 9mm and the 10 as a anemic 44magnum.
 
wow6599, the 10mm will take that same 200gr XTP and push it 150fps faster or more. There is a guy I shoot with that shoots a G20 with 200gr XTPs at 1300fps. The 40S&W will never have a 750fpe load from a 4-4.5" barrel and stay under SAAMI pressure.
 
OK, I'm a new kid here, but I really have shot a couple of rounds in the past. I'm (just barely) old enough to remember when the Glock 17 hit the streets in the States, and to remember when S&W introduced the .40 S&W.

My tastes are wide-ranging and kinda eclectic, and I waste time "just settin' here thinkin' about stuff" sometimes.

When the .40 came out, I was ecstatic. Why, it was the .41 AE with big factory support! It was the .40 G&A, in production! It was the Centimeter! It was a self-shucker-suitable .38 WCF.

Now, kids don't believe this, but "back in the day" we didn't have really good JHP bullets. The 1980s were only fifteen or twenty years after Lee Jurras and Super-Vel introduced actual working "holler pernt" ammo. Today it's pretty dang easy to get good 9mm JHPs----but it wasn't always so.

The gripes about good JHP ammo also sort of applied to the .45 ACP, but hey, at least we were already throwing a goodly chunk of lead.

I thought that the .40 made a really nice middle ground between the 9mm and the .45 ACP. Sixteen rounds of 9mm, 8 rounds of .45 ACP, split the difference and you get 12 rounds of .40 S&W . . . and in 9mm sized pistols, too! Sure, there were, and are, big 9mms, but a lot of the 9mm pistols themselves were svelte and handy in comparison with a "big ol' 1911." (Think with particularity here of the Browning Hi-Power.)

Bullet weight was the same "split the difference" as the magazine capacity. 9mm standard was the 115, the .45 ACP was 230, and right between them ought to be 172 or so grains---and the .40 was introduced standard with a 180 grain. All to the good, right?

Unfortunately, our old friend "Mr. Laws of Physics" came to visit.

I think---and this is just my theorizing here, so take it as you will---I think that the whole problem with the .40 S&W is that they tried to make it a "big 9mm" instead of a "little .45" (if that makes any sense).

At introduction, the standard .40 was (as mentioned above by me and by earlier posters) a 180 at 950 fps. It also had a JTC bullet profile that I'm convinced works better than the round nose of 9mm and .45 ACP hardball. Since then, bullet weight has been dropping, velocities have been accelerating, and my enthusiasm for the .40 has been dropping some as well.

With today's technology, I'm sure it would be no problem at all to whip up a good working .40 S&W JHP load that pushed a 180 grain bullet at a .45 ACP's traditional 850 fps. This would have been the "little .45" approach.

Above I mentioned our old friend Mr. Laws of Physics. Regardless of the virtues of the cartridge in isolation, you have to consider it in conjunction with the "launching platform." When you take a perfectly fine 9mm handgun, and put another high pressure cartridge in it, that launches a heavier bullet, you're pretty much just stuck with heavier recoil.

For me, the recoil of the .40 mitigates many of its virtues. With a 9mm, I have a high capacity, fast stepping, soft recoiling pistol, With a .45 ACP, I have a low capacity, slow walking, soft recoiling pistol. With the .40 S&W, I end up with a mid-capacity, mid-speed, harsh recoiling pistol. For me, it's neither fish nor fowl nor good red meat. I can get faster, and more accurate hits with either a 9mm or a .45 ACP, and thus prefer those cartridges.

Circling back to the original subject (does this nickname make any sense?), I'd have to say "NO." It's a very modern, high pressure, mid-size handgun cartridge. The 10mm will ALWAYS be able to gin up more fpe, because there's more powder room. Calling the .40 Short and Weak is like calling the .44 Special Short and Weak, and no one wants a horde of .44 Special junkies to be coming after them, for dissing their round.

That's my BS for you.

(Umm, that's "Ballistic Speculation," folks!)
 
I've been looking at a witness (Probably a compact) in 10mm for a while. I definitely want something high capacity (and not a GLOCK) so that kinda narrows my options.

But, I feel that I have to handload for the 10mm becasue factory ammo is expensive and not that much better that .40 S&W.

I may just say forget it and buy a .357 conversion barrel for my SIG and call it a day.
 
Good post, Kilted Cossack.

I don't really like the .40 because I may be the only one in the world that doesn't see the need.

The ammunition currently available for the 9mm is better than it has ever been before. Though I prefer the 10mm and the .45, I'll admit that 9mm has benefited most from current JHP and is undeniably more effective than it has ever been in the past. It is also cheap, readily available, and low recoil.

I've shot several .40s, and the pressure, acceleration, and combined low mass of the platform made them uniformly unpleasant to shoot compared to most .45s I have experience with. The .40 is much more snappy than the 9mm or the .45.

The .45 has benefited more from advancements in handgun design than from ammunition design. If the weight and relatively low capacity of the standard 1911 don't do it for you, there are now a host of polymer framed autos from various companies boasting capacities of 12 to 14 rounds. While I believe 8 rounds of .45 in a comfortable and reliable platform like the 1911 is more than adequate, I also acknowledge that no one ever lost a gun fight because they had a few more rounds in the magazine. And the current crop are more ergonomic than many of the first generation of double stack .45 ACPs. Your hands are tiny if you can't fit them comfortably around a Springfield XD or Smith and Wesson M&P.

So if I want more than the 9mm, I'll go with a .45, because I find it to be easier to shoot and am willing to sacrifice a few rounds in the magazine to gain the increase in shootability. If I am going to deal with the snap of the .40 S&W, I am skipping it altogether and going with a 10mm Auto. So again, the .40 makes no sense to me, and probably never will.
 
I don't really like the .40 because I may be the only one in the world that doesn't see the need.

I bet that your fingers are average to long in size. Mine are also, so I also prefer the .45 ACP.

Not every one is blessed with the size of hand that will fit the .45 caliber frames, however. They are much helped by the slight difference in length. They get a cartridge with superior ballistics to the 9mm, in a frame the same size.

I think the .40 S&W is a good cartridge, and I am not the least bit surpised that it has done well in the market place.
 
I use an XD40sc for ccw and I am fortunate enough to have enough back yard I can practice in. I use the pearce pinky grip extension so all my fingers are on the grip and I have a 9mm conversion barrel for it. I am going to have to pick up more 9mm rounds but so far I really do not feel that much less recoil with it in 9mm than in 40 and I don't find the 40 all that difficult to manage even in my compact pistol. I will admit my fullsize 1911 in 45acp is more pleasant to shoot than the XDsc in 40 or even 9mm.

Like they say, get one that works for you.
 
I'm gonna try to stop giggling long enough to post here, I still can't believe this thread has gone on this long. I mean, are there threads somewhere extolling the virtues of the 357 Magnum over the 38 Special? The 45 Super over the ACP?

Is the Ten Better than the 40? If you like higher velocity and energy, yes.

Short and Weak? Sure. Go stand over there and let me pop you in the keister with it, and we'll see. How about the 500 S&W, compared to a 50BMG, it's positively ANEMIC! ;)

I've owned a 40SW pistol for 17 years, shot well over 30K rounds through it, and every time I hear someone says it kicks too much, I have to laugh. I'm about four-foot-seventeen, out of shape, and I can shoot hot 40 loads all day long. My standard load is a 175/180 grain plated or hardcast bullet at about 1000fps. I also shoot a lightweight 45ACP, and it's a lot snappier than the 40, as it should be.

I think it's more about what you want......balls-out performance, or a good compromise between size, capacity, and power. The Ten is overpowered for most of my needs, but the 40 is just enough. If it's so Short & Weak, why is it the first choice of Law Enforcement? Answer: Because it's better than the 9 and the 38, not as violent(and more PC, to boot) as the 357, and holds more boolits than a 45.

It's enough, without being too much, and for most shooters, that's enough.

Papajohn
 
It appears to be a fine round for those who choose to employ it, and I certainly wouldn't want to get shot with one.

Then again, I carry a 9mm with confidence so what do I know. :D
 
I wasn't sure what the wildcat was that Cor-Bon produced, but it was because I was in endbook mode and my brain was kicking out all data.

The .400 Cor-Bon is the cartridge. It's like the .357 SIG, but bigger.

Sorry, Papajohn. I'm a fan of oddball cartridges, and the .40 is too mainstream. Technically, the .40 is a great cartridge with great results for all using them, but the existence, to me, is an epic "meh."

Ironically, it's turned the .45 ACP and 9mm Luger into oddball cartridges, and has become the basis for my favorite oddball, the .357 SIG.

If I'm rambling, it's because I got four hours sleep after putting a novel to bed.

Me sleep nao.
 
The .40 defnitely has a place in the world of handgunning. It is, by all merits, a very efficient cartridge. That said, it was concieved as and always will be a compromise round. Much like a midsized pickup, which can carry a bit more weight than a compact but averages better fuel economy than a full size. For lot's of folks, the middleground is ideal. For some, the advantages of one end outweigh the downsides.

The difference in frame size from 9mm/.40 guns to 10mm/.45 guns is enough to be uncomfortable to some shooters. And some prefer 12 or 15 rounds of .40 to 8 or 10 rounds of .45 with a similar grip circumference. But there are those of us who can comfortably shoot and carry a double column 10mm or .45, and for us the choice is rather simple. Why would I carry a 16 round .40 when I can just as easily carry a 16 round 10mm? That would be like buying a midsize truck that gets worse fuel economy than a fullsize.

Just my $0.02

And on that note:

With longshot powder, I can push a 155 grain XTP at 1330 fps, pretty close to 10mm velocities,

10mm runs a 180 grainer at 1,400 (1340 from my 3.5" compact). 155's can be driven to well over 1,500 FPS.

You just can't make a .40 compete with a 10mm. Unless you like ergonomic hand grenades.
 
What's the cartridge which is the .45 ACP necked down to take .45 ACP?

I figured Doug's question was one of those Zen koans like "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" In this case, if you get the answer right, your karma will be an infinite amount of .45 ACP ammo for life.

:cool:

:D
 
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