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7.65 Browning vs. 32 ACP

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by film495, Jan 18, 2020.

  1. film495

    film495 Member

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    Thanks for everyone throwing out thoughts and info. Looks like my real next step is to slug the barrel and see what I'm actually working with.
     
  2. MZ5

    MZ5 Member

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    It's not _that_ hard to assemble components and dies that won't work well together. American dies seem to all be made for .312" diameter bullets. If you got ahold of some .308" or .309" diameter 'European-spec' bullets, your brass would likely not hold onto the bullets correctly. Happily, those bullets are very uncommon in the USA in a weight and shape suitable for the 32 Auto.

    If it was my gun, I'd buy American-market bullets, brass, and dies and load up the ammo I wanted. Slugging the bore with a fishing sinker won't take much time, effort, or money, though, so it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
     
  3. mdi

    mdi Member

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    The big mistake here is believing reloading manuals are exacting formula. They are not. They are the published reports found by a particular testing facility. Other facilities will have different equipment and the age and wear on the equipment can differ. The components, while of the same manufacturer, are quite often of a different manufacturing lot and can vary, even bullets, primers and brass. So one lab uses powder (and primers, bullets and brass) manufactured in 1976, and another lab uses the same powder from 1999. Results exactly the same? Rarely...

    If in doubt about a load data, use common sense and choose the lighter load and as "normal" reloading practice, work up if necessary...
     
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  4. film495

    film495 Member

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    I put a caliper on a 73 Grain, Fiocci ball round - and the widest bullet measurement I could get was .3085, I did not pull the bullet. There is a cannelure, and the bullet may be a different measurement below that seating in the case.

    COL .977
    .3335 case width top section
    .354 rim diameter
    .3295 case diameter at mouth, as close to the top as I could get
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  5. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    I have RCBS .32 ACP dies and they work great with the horrid mix of range brass I have, even get plenty of neck tension with the very thin walled stuff (Some is real thick).

    They have worked great with all of the various ".32" bullets I have tried, 60 Gr XTP, 71 Gr Berrys, 71 Gr Hornady, unknown 71 Gr, Blem/overstock? 65 Gr Hydrashoks etc....

    I bought some blems that looked to be 60 Gr XTPs, and likely are, but about a third of them were .3085/.309 and did not give enough neck tension. The others were .312/.3125

    and worked great. I haven't looked to see what my ".32 ACP" guns are marked, but my reloads work in them all. I'll look and see what they are marked when I get home.

    I have always considered 7.65 and .32 ACP to be the same thing.
     
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  6. Bandit67

    Bandit67 Member

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    I think the fourth digit after the decimal threw you off. The difference between .309 and .3125 is only just over 3 thousandths not 25 thousandths.
     
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  7. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    The Beretta and the CZ are marked 7.65, the Taurus is marked .32 ACP, and I can't find a caliber marking on the FN Browning Model 1922. They all run with the same reloads.
     
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  8. film495

    film495 Member

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    I think they are basically, trying to figure it out - just some small variances between the standards. Trying to learn where it comes into play reloading for it. Thanks for sharing your experience.
     
  9. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

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  10. film495

    film495 Member

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    I got my Berry's bullets and did a little testing today making a few dummy rounds.

    I made 4, of various length - intentionally with one longer than spec length, two in the middle, and one short.
    When I dropped them into the chamber to plunk test them, interestingly each of them stopped right about at the base, with the extractor slot and rim sticking out. I did not try to push them in further to see how much resistance there would be, but I found it interesting even the short one stopped at the same level.

    Out of curiosity - I went back and expanded two other cases, one Geco and one Fiocci, but did not bell the case mouth, just ran them through the expander die, thinking they may do the same thing, but each plunked in and out of the chamber perfectly, with no bullet.

    Not sure what to make of this, I need to practice and work with the components and dies some more - take some more measurements, but without a cartridge tester, using the chamber seemed to show me I have something that needs to be improved upon in what I'm doing before thinking of making any live rounds in this caliber.
     
  11. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

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    What do you mean by cartridge tester? Do you mean a case gauge?

    Your chamber is the best case gauge. That's what your rounds have to fit. It doesn't matter if they fit a case gauge or not.

    Follow the instructions at the link below by using a magic marker to find out where your loaded rounds are rubbing. Then you'll know EXACTLY why they don't fit.

    https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/reloading-tips-the-plunk-test/99389
     
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  12. film495

    film495 Member

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    case width at mouth that plunks fine with no bullet seated .3345
    case width at mouth that does not plunk with bullet seated .3325

    all I can think of is I'm disrupting the plating, not sure what else would cause the smaller case to not drop in correctly. think I'll try separating the seating and crimping functions to see if that clears things up, at least it gives me something else to try.
     
  13. film495

    film495 Member

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    I'll check out that article and find my magic markers … yea - I meant case gauge. It was kind of fascinating, all be it - a little disappointing, to see each of the dummy cartridges not plunk in the chamber correctly.
     
  14. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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  15. film495

    film495 Member

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    Well, I'm not sure what this told me, but - interesting. Inserting all 4 dummy rounds, they all insert up to where the extractor groove starts, and they go no further than that - even with pressure applied to the end of the case. I inserted and pulled them several times, and wiggled them a little in the chamber just to see what markings would develop on the ink. They stick after applying pressure and have to get popped out by pulling from the extractor groove. They all seam to seat the exact same depth. The one on the left is over max OAL, by a good bit - the two in the middle are within spec, and the one on the right is just about minimum.

    I measured them all again for diameter, and the two sized and expanded cases that plunk fine - and the only difference of note is the dummy rounds are about 2 thousands smaller at the case mouth, from the taper crimp.

    Any ideas as to why these don't chamber?
     

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  16. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    The one on the left is definitely long, but if they all seat to equal depth in the barrel aren't they all doing what they should? Head spacing on the case mouth? In other words, they all plunk fine and the case mouth stops at the end of the chamber like it should?

    How about a pic of them in the chamber, some of the case head is going to stick out, that's normal.

    Like this?
    [​IMG]
     
  17. film495

    film495 Member

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    they head space on the rim. the .32 ACP is semi rimmed. They don't fully chamber, they stuck up about 1.55 mm shy of being fully chambered. Even with the various lengths of the cartridges they seem very consistent at stopping at that depth and do not chamber fully. I measured them every which way and haven't figured it out.
     
  18. Havok7416
    • Contributing Member

    Havok7416 Member

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    The rims on .32 ACP can be a different thickness between manufacturers. It is not regarded as a good way to set headspace. If the rounds are seating to the same depth (and they are) and the slide closes on the chambered round then they are as good as they need to be.
     
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  19. film495

    film495 Member

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    I'll have to take a picture of it for you guys. It head spaces on the rim. The case enters the chamber and how far it will go it is determined by the rim, not unlike a rimmed rifle cartridge. It slides into the chamber - and is stopped when the rim impacts the face of the chamber. As far as I know there is no variation - the rim seats up to the face of the chamber or it does not. In this case, not - which indicates a problem.
     
  20. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Without a pic it's hard to tell, unless the bullet is hitting the rifling and holding it out, or the brass is damaged near the rim, etc. With your description I just thought maybe the case was stopping in the chamber. A short chamber could do that.
     
  21. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Will the gun accept them, or does the slide stop short of fully chambering.
     
  22. film495

    film495 Member

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    my camera doesn't really take pictures that close and small well. these are a couple graphics of basically how it should work, but this is a rimmed cartridge and mine is semi-rimmed, but it headspaces the same way. on mine, the cartridge does not enter the chamber fully, the rim doesn't come up flush to the face of the chamber, and there is a 1.5 mm gap between the rim and the face of the chamber where the rim should contact the chamber face.

    found one that is semi-rimmed, but you can see the mechanics are the same and headspace on the rim

    semi-rim-cartridge.JPG

    2.jpg headspace-rimmed-01-600x450.jpg

    I inked the cartridges and put them in and out of the chamber to see if I could figure it out, but maybe need to do it again and turn the round with needle nose plyers to get a better picture of what is making contact causing the restriction.
     
  23. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Those pics don't help, I've seen a million like those.
    So they did "chamber" when the slide went forward as I asked? If so, shoot them.
     
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  24. film495

    film495 Member

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    I did some additional experimenting making a new set of dummy rounds since the first set did not chamber.

    What I did was seat a bullet to depth, and then slowly add by 1/18 turn of the die to add crimp to the round - and try to plunk it every time I added a little crimp until it would plunk down into the chamber fully. I had to plunk it 10 or 16 times or so, but eventually it did drop in fully. I did 5 of them like this. Once the crimp was such that it would drop down in completely, they would stick in the chamber and not drop back out. By adding a little additional crimp, those 5 round now will plunk in and drop out of the chamber. unrestricted; just like a Fiocci or Geco factory round.

    An odd thing though, I tried to recreate this as a way to set up the dies, and the second batch I did two more dummy rounds - and they continued to stick in the chamber once I got them to plunk down in fully. I kept adding crimp and they kept sticking. So, I must have a very narrow sweet spot with the taper crimp it needs and I missed it the 2nd time trying to recreate the same settings.

    Although, it was strongly suggested to me there would be no need to trim 32 ACP cases here, I think I'm going to try it when my trimmer parts get here, just to test if trimming the cases to the trim length makes finding the right crimp setting a little easier - so, the end result of finished rounds will plunk down in and out correctly and consistently. I'm getting the impression that since I'm using 32 ACP dies and a 7.56 Browning chamber - the margins are very small.

    I'm not convinced that I'm not going to get the sizing die to bring the bullet size down to .309 - and possibly try other dies or set ups to get rounds that I'm satisfied with that will function consistently and reliably. I'll keep testing and working with what I have currently to see if I can make it work.
     
  25. MZ5

    MZ5 Member

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    I probably missed something; maybe some measurements or other info that would negate this. Nevertheless:

    European brass vs American brass for this cartridge tend to be of different thicknesses. It seems that COAL, and thus throat depth, is not the issue here. Perhaps the combination of bullet diameter, brass thickness, and chamber width is the issue; maybe at the case mouth, or maybe partly down the body of the case. The magic market suggestion would reveal if this is the problem.
     
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