9mm sizing problem

[armoredman]

Even with my CZ "short chambers" I haven't had to do much anything but the standard "plunk" test. If it passes that, the load is good. Bulged brass, A-Merc brass, Perfecta, that weird stepped brass all goes in the scrap bin. CBC, PPU, Aguila, all the thick walled stuff will still work just fine, especially with cast bullets.
Full metal jacket and JHP rounds all get the Lee Factory Crimp Die, which does wonders for me. Plated and lead loads do not. I examione every single peice of brass by hand prior to even sizing. Anything looks "off" - it gets turned into doorknobs. I have enough brass that it doesn't bother me.
Machinegun brass, I wonder if that what a buddy gave me - it looks like it was fired in a "stepped" chamber, fireformed ever so slightly larger about 1/4 inches below the case mouth.

 

[CQB45ACP]

The mak fcd of course. The funniest thing is all the people using it...and not realizing they cracked the carbide ring, and it's actually not doing anything....or the fact that much of the time you're sizing the rim too..Its a shortcut that really doesn't work. I'll say it again...to safely do range pickup 9mm Luger, you have 2 choices. Rollsize, or process the brass first, case gauge it before loading, and discard the fails. I suppose you could just load it, then break down the fails if you wanted. Or you can use the mak fcd and hope. Like I said, your hand, your gun. "I've done a thousand with no problem". Lol, then number 1001...kaboom.

I think you’re a fine anti-Mak as a bulge buster evangelist and (along with additional research as you suggested) have made me a convert.

I haven’t needed the Mak for a while and now doubt I’ll use it if I do find another 9mm bulge.

But, for my own edification, I did check and the carbide ring appears to be intact so if I backslide it’s hidden in the cabinet like a bottle of hooch ready to go.

But are you over selling the safety factor on this? Sounds like you’re prophesying that if you don’t convert, your gun’s going to blow up. Not if, but when. Am I misperceiving?

 

[EricBu]

I think you’re a fine anti-Mak as a bulge buster evangelist and (along with additional research as you suggested) have made me a convert.

I haven’t needed the Mak for a while and now doubt I’ll use it if I do find another 9mm bulge.

But, for my own edification, I did check and the carbide ring appears to be intact so if I backslide it’s hidden in the cabinet like a bottle of hooch ready to go.

But are you over selling the safety factor on this? Sounds like you’re prophesying that if you don’t convert, your gun’s going to blow up. Not if, but when. Am I misperceiving?

Lol, nah...just don't like people selling shortcuts to others without telling the whole story. I am all about informed consent. I mean, we're all adults, people gonna people, but having all the information, and knowing all sides of the story can only benefit decision making. The old saying, "you can have cheap, good, or fast...pick 2" is truer for making ammo than most things.

Honestly, doesn't matter if you religiously inspect your brass, and gauge it. Hell, maybe the mak fcd saves you 20 pieces of 9mm brass out of a thousand (2% was about my fail rate prior to the rollsizer). The real danger is depending on it, and not checking post load.

 

[maxxhavoc]

I have 3 9mm revolvers which are MUCH less forgiving of reloads with bulged cases. My reloads that plunk and fire fine in semi autos would not chamber about 25% of the time in the revolvers.

The application of the FCD fixed most of these, but 1 in 10 or so still had issues.

I got a Lee undersize sizing die-it's supposedly only .003 smaller, but it also sizes lower on the case than my regular die.

It makes a big difference in the final results, and all reloads will work in everything again.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I have 3 9mm revolvers which are MUCH less forgiving of reloads with bulged cases. My reloads that plunk and fire fine in semi autos would not chamber about 25% of the time in the revolvers.

The application of the FCD fixed most of these, but 1 in 10 or so still had issues.

I got a Lee undersize sizing die-it's supposedly only .003 smaller, but it also sizes lower on the case than my regular die.

It makes a big difference in the final results, and all reloads will work in everything again.

I use the undersized die too (both 9mm & 45acp). Don’t know about it sizing lower (actually don’t know how it could) but I do know I perceive far more consistent seating tension than in the past.

Used to get some 9mm that I couldn’t even sense being seated. And now push/set back testing shows nil.

And for 9mm rounds I don’t even need taper crimping to remove flare since I lightly chamfer and don’t flare when expanding. But, this is with primarily 115gr plated RN which almost seat themselves.

 

[rfwobbly]

I really don't think it's in the die. If it were in the die why does it resize 200 rounds perfectly and then throw out one oddball? I'm going to give Walkalong's suggestion a try by resizing all of the 9mm brass I have acquired, gauging them, and tossing the ones that fail the case gauge. At a (1) in (200) failure rate it's not that big of a deal. I can buy many thousands of 9mm brass for the price of a new Redding die. I have a lot of Redding dies and have nothing against Redding. Dillon's are easier to clean and prefer Dillon dies for pistol.

Missing info...
► You need to tell us WHERE the case gauge is telling you the cartridge isn't right. 9x19 is a tapered cartridge and simply saying "it fails" is not good enough.
► You also need to tell us where you got your brass.

I ran across this issue when retrieving brass from my gun club. The pistol ranges are use once a month for Action Pistol competitions and some of those competitors are shooting 9 Major. "9 Major" has enough chamber pressure to enlarge the head of the case, a place where expansion does not usually happen. Case growth greater than 0.001" at the Head will not pass the gauging and CAN wedge itself into your tapered 9mm chamber. And this is a place where, due to the presence of the shell plate, no Sizing Die can reach. "Roll Sizing" is the only way to correct over-sized cases at the case head.

Not only that, but being over-sized by 0.001" cannot be seen with the naked eye. It must be measured.

I'm not saying this is your problem. There are many, many issues that can crop up when shooting taper cartridge cases. This is just one. But it was the answer for me, and my issue went away as soon as I stopped getting "range pickup brass" from my gun club.

(This is why I list the tapered cartridge and tapered chamber as the biggest issue to account for when reloading 9x19 Luger in post #43 of THIS thread.)

Hope this helps.

 

[EricBu]

Just to kind of summarize things about 9mm Luger. In my opinion, it is one of the "trickiest" rounds in existence. "It's just 9mm" is a common phrase, but 9mm Luger is unique in a lot of ways. It's an odd tapered case to begin with, the rim is oddly sized, and there is a lot of deviation there, it's a tiny case capacity, and super high pressure round, and it has a tendency to logarithmically increase pressure with very very tiny changes or deviations. Combined with the ease of acquiring large amounts of range pickup brass can create scenarios that you don't see with other cartridges. Once upon a time, people cut their teeth on 38 and 45 ACP..low pressure straightwall rounds with lots and lots of forgiveness. Then with 9mm we add in +P, and comp shooters shooting major....out of the gate you have brass that's possibly been exposed to pressures bumping up near 40K psi. That collapses webbing, expands the head, does all kinds of nasty little things to the brass. So you end up with kind of a higher potential of cascading failures than you have with just about any other common cartridge in existence today. You can eliminate a LOT of this by knowing the provenance of your brass, or using brass you've only shot from your guns, and you know what you've loaded it too. Range pickup brings a lot of variables to the table that you cannot control, so when using that, it's best to know what you're about and mitigate everywhere you can. Sure, sometimes folks take shortcuts, it's human nature...load faster, save money, reduce steps, but one should do that with a complete understanding of what they are doing, how and why they are doing it, and how that time saver, or less expensive process impacts their overall risk, and accept that risk as a part of their decision process. Nothing wrong with that, and it may be the right choice for some. But accepting that risk must be from an informed position. Any area where you can reduce risk, also reduces your over all risk...and risk reduction is a important part of enjoying this hobby for a lifetime.

 

[lordpaxman]

That is what they are supposed to do. You're supposed to left the Shockbottle to see if all the loaded rounds fall into the gauge and are flush with the top surface

If you reread my post, I said I elevated the shock bottle, but the rounds still aren’t flush with the top. I do know how to use a shock bottle case gauge. My whole point was the fact a set of Dillon dies sized the brass in question without any issue.

What I have perceived from all of this advice is the possibility of the wide mouth of the Dillon sizing die may be the problem. And if you look at the bottom of a Dillon sizing die you will understand the meaning of a wide mouth.

The Dillon dies aren’t a problem in my experience. Size the brass in question , and then check it in a case gauge without having it go through the rest of the process.

 

[nettlle]

Missing info...
► You need to tell us WHERE the case gauge is telling you the cartridge isn't right. 9x19 is a tapered cartridge and simply saying "it fails" is not good enough.
► You also need to tell us where you got your brass.

I ran across this issue when retrieving brass from my gun club. The pistol ranges are use once a month for Action Pistol competitions and some of those competitors are shooting 9 Major. "9 Major" has enough chamber pressure to enlarge the head of the case, a place where expansion does not usually happen. Case growth greater than 0.001" at the Head will not pass the gauging and CAN wedge itself into your tapered 9mm chamber. And this is a place where, due to the presence of the shell plate, no Sizing Die can reach. "Roll Sizing" is the only way to correct over-sized cases at the case head.

Not only that, but being over-sized by 0.001" cannot be seen with the naked eye. It must be measured.

I'm not saying this is your problem. There are many, many issues that can crop up when shooting taper cartridge cases. This is just one. But it was the answer for me, and my issue went away as soon as I stopped getting "range pickup brass" from my gun club.

(This is why I list the tapered cartridge and tapered chamber as the biggest issue to account for when reloading 9x19 Luger in post #43 of THIS thread.)

Hope this helps.

The round sticks out of the case gauge like the one in your photo. On the worst ones they are about 3/16" higher than the gauge. The brass came from an indoor range not far from home. No doubt they are floor sweepings.

 

[nettlle]

I don't think there is anything wrong with my 9mm Dillon die nor do I believe there is anything wrong with my Redding 308 die causing me to have to use a 308 small base die. I think the mixed range brass is the problem with the 9mm and an undersized chamber in the 308. Not blaming the dies for either issue.

 

[Walkalong]

I think the mixed range brass is the problem with the 9mm

I wouldn't doubt it. Like I have posted a few times, any range brass my standard Lee tapered long insert carbide sizer won't make fit the Wilson case gauge, gets scrapped.

That said, there are plenty of 9MM handguns that will accept some pretty fat reloads.

 

[nettlle]

I have two CZ PCR's that will chamber and shoot these rounds.

 

[LiveLife]

any range brass my standard Lee tapered long insert carbide sizer won't make fit the Wilson case gauge, gets scrapped.

Same here.

I load for several 9mm barrels with tighter aftermarket/match chambers (KKM, Lone Wolf, Tactical Kinetics, BCA) and my reloads must work in all of them.

If a particular 9mm case requires significantly greater resizing effort, I suspect overly expanded/9mm Major brass and will chamber check in tightest barrel I have. If case fails, I will resize a second time. If case fails second time, it gets tossed for recycling.

 

[nettlle]

Just an update. The Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die came today along with a Sheridan Engineering Slotted case gauge. I already had a Wilson case gauge but I like my Sheridan 308 case gauge so much I ordered a 9mm.

Sorted through (300) rounds that had already been plunked and found (38) that plunked but wouldn't pass the case gauge. Set up the Lee die in the T7 and ran all (38) through the Lee die and they fit the gauge easily. So I am pretty sure my problem is fixed.
I have been reloading over 50 years and had never used or purchased anything made by Lee but I am now a Lee Precision fan. Thank you Jim Watson!

One more thing. While checking these cases with the two different case gauges I found several that failed the Wilson gauge but passed the Sheridan gauge (see photo). Doing the best I could with calipers it looks like the Sheridan is about .002" bigger on the big end. Not saying anything bad about Wilson. Just an observation I made today.

First photo is the round inserted in the Wilson case gauge.

Second photo same round in the Sheridan gauge.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Just an update. The Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die came today along with a Sheridan Engineering Slotted case gauge. I already had a Wilson case gauge but I like my Sheridan 308 case gauge so much I ordered a 9mm.

Sorted through (300) rounds that had already been plunked and found (38) that plunked but wouldn't pass the case gauge. Set up the Lee die in the T7 and ran all (38) through the Lee die and they fit the gauge easily. So I am pretty sure my problem is fixed.
I have been reloading over 50 years and had never used or purchased anything made by Lee but I am now a Lee Precision fan. Thank you Jim Watson!

One more thing. While checking these cases with the two different case gauges I found several that failed the Wilson gauge but passed the Sheridan gauge (see photo). Doing the best I could with calipers it looks like the Sheridan is about .002" bigger on the big end. Not saying anything bad about Wilson. Just an observation I made today.

First photo is the round inserted in the Wilson case gauge.

Second photo same round in the Sheridan gauge.

You went through all the trouble to provide pictures and didn’t show cutaway view of Sheridan?

 

[nettlle]

My bad.

 

[CQB45ACP]

My bad.

Thanks
Gotta get one

 

[nettlle]

The 308 Sheridan.

 

[Walkalong]

Cool, extra credit........

 

[EricBu]

That is a neat case guage! And glad you got it all sorted!