9mm sizing problem

[LiveLife]

9mm ... sized some CBC, GECO, GFL, and Perfecta ... Just sized, however, they all gauged fine.

with 147gr RMR FP MW,s at 1.150”, they didn’t gauge completely and were slightly proud of the Shockbottle gauge. This is not a fault of the RMR bullets,

Likely from thicker case wall brass with uneven/inconsistent case wall thickness.

As I mentioned in post #19, case wall thickness can vary .200" below case mouth where bullet base is seated down to and thicker case wall brass will bulge case neck to rub with chamber wall to prevent finished round to freely fully chamber (And no amount of taper crimping will fix this issue as taper crimp is applied around .100" below case mouth) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-sizing-problem.922619/#post-12707116

Also note that case wall thickness may not be consistent evenly around and could produce out-of-round/oval shaped case neck to rub chamber wall.

These case wall thickness measurements were taken at 12/3/6/9 O'clock positions .200" below case mouth where typical 9mm bullet bases are seated to or below. Note how much thicker CBC/Geco/GFL/Perfecta cases are and how uneven some thickness measurements are compared to Starline cases - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10713822

Starline: .012"/.012"/.013"/.012"​

Starline: .012"/.013".012"/.011"​

Starline: .012"/.012"/.013"/.013"​

​

CBC: .015"/.014".014"/.015"​

CBC: .015"/.015"/.014"/.015"​

CBC: .014"/.015"/.014"/.013"​

​

GECO: .014"/.014"/.0125"/.014"​

GECO: .014"/.014"/.014"/.015"​

GECO: .014"/.013"/.014"/.013"​

​

GFL: .012"/.012"/.013"/.013"​

GFL: .014"/.014"/.013"/.012"​

GFL: .015"/.013"/.0125"/.014"​

​

PERFECTA: .014"/.013"/.012"/.012"​

PERFECTA: .014"/.014"/.012"/.013"​

PERFECTA: .015"/.014"/.013"/.012"​

 

[PO2Hammer]

I think brass hardness is another issue.
CBC might be a thou’ or two thicker, but it just seems stiffer, or harder.
It also loads ‘longer’ than other brands, roughly .01” longer OAL than soft brass like Blazer using identical components and die settings.
My WAG is that the stiffer brass has more spring action, and flexes back more after bullet seating than soft brass.
Anyone have access to brass hardness testing equipment?

 

[CQB45ACP]

I think brass hardness is another issue.
CBC might be a thou’ or two thicker, but it just seems stiffer, or harder.
It also loads ‘longer’ than other brands, roughly .01” longer OAL than soft brass like Blazer using identical components and die settings.
My WAG is that the stiffer brass has more spring action, and flexes back more after bullet seating than soft brass.
Anyone have access to brass hardness testing equipment?

I agree brass hardness seems to vary. Now whether it in turn does what you suspect I’m not qualified to say but I observed (and started a thread about) my deburring and uniforming flash holes (not pockets).

Using a Lyman tool for that purpose, some brands were cut like a hot knife through butter while others hardly at all (pun intended).

 

[EricBu]

You will always have a certain amount of semi-auto brass (generic range brass) fail full length sizing, because of bulge at the base of the body and depending on what it was fired from. This is simply fact, and the nature of the beast. You can work around most calibers with a bulge buster, but unfortunately 9mm Luger is not one of them. Yes, there are lots of people claiming they can work around it on 9mm with a hodgepodge of work arounds including Mak dies, or gutting 40 bulge busters, but since 9mm luger is tapered, they are simply making an out of spec case that may gauge now because portions are undersized. The only **right** way is roll sizing, if you want to get them all..or simply full length size then gauge, and throw away any that won't gauge....and load the remaining. 9mm is cheap enough that nobody here is going to go broke discarding bulged range brass if it doesn't gauge after sizing. If you are a comp shooter, and live on range brass, and want to save yourself a lot of time and pain, simply invest in a roll sizer and roll size everything. The quality of all ammo dramatically improves over all, .308, 5.56, 380 acp, 9mm, 40, 45 acp...all benefit from roll sizing, but 9mm is the one that is the most difficult to bulge bust without a proper roll sizer. While I have roll sizer caliber conversions for lots of straight wall revolver cartridges...after testing I've not seen any benefit to it (other than some rim uniforming which I don't see a major gain), so those conversions sit on the shelf and laugh at me.......but the overall improvement of consistency for the semi-auto cases is amazing, and very much worth it.

Cliff Notes for bulged 9mm luger brass:

Best Choices:

1. Process your brass in bulk (decap, size). Case gauge and discard brass that doesn't meet the gauge
2. Invest in rollsizing and never worry about it again.

Not recommended, but like over max loading, never using case gauges, drinking while loading, and leaving your ammo in your truck in Phoenix in July then complaining about blowing primers....people gonna people:

1. Find the various write ups and you tube videos on making a 9mm luger bulge buster
2. Use other dies and just ignore the fact that Luger is a tapered cartridge.

 

[CQB45ACP]

These guys roll size as part of processing. So if you’ve got a lot…

Blue Ridge Brass, LLC - Home

Reloading | handloading Supplies | Once fired Brass | Wholesale Reloading Brass | Brass Processing | 223 brass | 9mm bulk | 300 blackout

blueridgebrass.com

(I’ve bought from them but am not associated)

As for using a Mak die and then brass is “out of spec.” Does it make a difference in performance? (Probably heresy to even ask.)

And, I use an undersized sizing die, are my cases out of spec as well? Or just on the small side of acceptable specification?

 

[EricBu]

These guys roll size as part of processing. So if you’ve got a lot…

Blue Ridge Brass, LLC - Home

Reloading | handloading Supplies | Once fired Brass | Wholesale Reloading Brass | Brass Processing | 223 brass | 9mm bulk | 300 blackout

blueridgebrass.com

(I’ve bought from them but am not associated)

As for using a Mak die and then brass is “out of spec.” Does it make a difference in performance? (Probably heresy to even ask.)

And, I use an undersized sizing die, are my cases out of spec as well? Or just on the small side of acceptable specification?

I'm sure it will run, but I would not do it, and I have no idea what the potential consequences would be. And to be more accurate, it's a combination of a mak fcd die with other dies (which ones are the subject of many write ups and videos...which if one is interested, one can go out and find, just using mak dies it will never gauge, because you wouldn't be sizing the case at all really.

I mean, the luger was designed to be tapered, the chamber is designed that way, and designed for brass with the correct taper. It just doesn't seem worth it to me, but other's MMV. I mean, it's not like we're talking some sort of unicorn brass that's hard to find, it's 9mm luger, it's not like it's a big deal to throw out cases that won't gauge after sizing. Plus processing brass in one step, then loading sized and decapped brass is soooo much nicer than single pass, especially if you are using an automated press to load...removes about 99% of your stoppages.

 

[9mmepiphany]

After stuffing these with 147gr RMR FP MW,s at 1.150”, they didn’t gauge completely and were slightly proud of the Shockbottle gauge. This is not a fault of the RMR bullets, it’s just the nature of the beast with a 9mm and that heavy/long of a projectile

It almost sounds like you are commenting on how proud they stand when the Shockbottle is on a flat surface.

Is that what you meant in the above sentence?

 

[CQB45ACP]

I'm sure it will run, but I would not do it, and I have no idea what the potential consequences would be. And to be more accurate, it's a combination of a mak fcd die with other dies (which ones are the subject of many write ups and videos...which if one is interested, one can go out and find, just using mak dies it will never gauge, because you wouldn't be sizing the case at all really.

I mean, the luger was designed to be tapered, the chamber is designed that way, and designed for brass with the correct taper. It just doesn't seem worth it to me, but other's MMV. I mean, it's not like we're talking some sort of unicorn brass that's hard to find, it's 9mm luger, it's not like it's a big deal to throw out cases that won't gauge after sizing. Plus processing brass in one step, then loading sized and decapped brass is soooo much nicer than single pass, especially if you are using an automated press to load...removes about 99% of your stoppages.

I do use an undersized die for both 9mm & 45acp. I like the results.

As for Mak die, I haven’t needed to use it for quite a while but when I did I didn’t notice any negative results but I didn’t look for them either.

 

[lordpaxman]

It almost sounds like you are commenting on how proud they stand when the Shockbottle is on a flat surface.

Is that what you meant in the above sentence?

The sized cases were flush with the surface of the Shockbottle, but the sized and loaded rounds were slightly above the surface of the Shockbottle. I do elevate the Shockbottle as the longer rounds do extend deeper than the gauge.

 

[EricBu]

I do use an undersized die for both 9mm & 45acp. I like the results.

As for Mak die, I haven’t needed to use it for quite a while but when I did I didn’t notice any negative results but I didn’t look for them either.

Undersizing a bulged 9mm case will exacerbate the issue, actually increase the bulge right at the base of the body. Really, these issues are more for people doing bulk range pickup or bulk sourced where they don't know the provenance. Really the worst is getting brass sourced from a machine gun shoot, lol. That's some beat up brass right there...and I've learned to curse loudly when I see those special tell tell lines on the case that spell "H and K".

 

[9mmepiphany]

but the sized and loaded rounds were slightly above the surface of the Shockbottle.

That is what they are supposed to do. You're supposed to left the Shockbottle to see if all the loaded rounds fall into the gauge and are flush with the top surface

 

[nettlle]

I use a small base die for my M1A in 308. Not much choice because it won't chamber. Small base die or throw the brass away. 308 brass is not cheap. This is factory loaded 308 ammo with LC brass and not machine gun brass. I have seen the benefit of under sizing a case.

 

[EricBu]

I use a small base die for my M1A in 308. Not much choice because it won't chamber. Small base die or throw the brass away. 308 brass is not cheap. This is factory loaded 308 ammo with LC brass and not machine gun brass. I have seen the benefit of under sizing a case.

I personally wouldn't equate SBD with undersizing tapered 9mm luger cases, which was what the discussion was about. Nobody suggested you throw away .308, lol. I mean, really, that's more just to ensure reliability in the AR platform, though honestly plenty of people run standard dies with no issue. I've heard they are preferred for some other guns (M1A1), but no firsthand with that. I've been told that both Dillon's .223 and .308 dies are SBD, and always have been, but I cannot say that's a true statement. I did have separate dies for .308 in my bolt guns and my AR10...just because my bolt .308's shoot much better with a standard die, and my AR10 wouldn't run 100% with some types of brass without it, but since getting a rollsizer now, I just load them all with the same standard dies, I just have Lapua brass set aside for my bolt guns, and keep that together, and load that separately on a different press. None of my 5.56 AR's have ever complained one bit, but those have always been loaded with dillon dies, never had a bolt gun in .223.

 

[JerkyFreak]

At the cost of a roll sizer, you might as well buy new 9mm cases. Or pick up range brass, or buy once-fired from ranges.

 

[EricBu]

At the cost of a roll sizer, you might as well buy new 9mm cases. Or pick up range brass, or buy once-fired from ranges.

Or shoot more to justify the cost..........

But that's why I also included processing 9mm luger brass, then gauging before loading, and throwing away fails. That's cheapest and safest way to deal with 9mm bulge. Without rollsizing or discarding bad, every other choice is a gamble...some are willing, some aren't.

 

[nettlle]

There are a lot of great suggestions here including yours. What I have perceived from all of this advice is the possibility of the wide mouth of the Dillon sizing die may be the problem. And if you look at the bottom of a Dillon sizing die you will understand the meaning of a wide mouth. Dillon makes them this way to make the case funnel into the die more smoothly. Faster operation so to speak. And maybe I am making a big deal out of nothing but I am pretty anal about my reloads. When they come off of the press I want them to run perfectly. Paid a lot of money for the guns and the reloading equipment for this privilege. Again it's not a huge deal. Maybe 2-3 every 200 to 300 rounds. And fighting the cheap range brass with all of this may be the tail wagging the dog but I am going to give it a go. Should have the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die Tuesday or Wednesday of next week. If it doesn't work out I may leave well enough alone.

 

[EricBu]

There are a lot of great suggestions here including yours. What I have perceived from all of this advice is the possibility of the wide mouth of the Dillon sizing die may be the problem. And if you look at the bottom of a Dillon sizing die you will understand the meaning of a wide mouth. Dillon makes them this way to make the case funnel into the die more smoothly. Faster operation so to speak. And maybe I am making a big deal out of nothing but I am pretty anal about my reloads. When they come off of the press I want them to run perfectly. Paid a lot of money for the guns and the reloading equipment for this privilege. Again it's not a huge deal. Maybe 2-3 every 200 to 300 rounds. And fighting the cheap range brass with all of this may be the tail wagging the dog but I am going to give it a go. Should have the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die Tuesday or Wednesday of next week. If it doesn't work out I may leave well enough alone.

Definitely not the dillon die (unless you have a bad one). I load 10 to 15K 9mm every month on a dillon die. But every case is rollsized first. I case gauge EVERY SINGLE LOADED ROUND, and almost never have a case reject, very very rare, probably 1 per 1K. Before the rollsizer, I had about 2% rejected after processing the brass before loading, pickup after a machine gun shoot was about 5%. I process on a separate press, size and decap for 9mm. Before the rollsizer, I processed in batches of 5K case gauged them all, discarded about 2%. Then loaded, and case gauged again. Did the same way after I got the rollsizer, became apparent quick I didn't need to gauge after brass processing, only the finished round. So not only saved me 2% overhead on brass, but hours of time. Now I rollsize, process....go right to loading, and case gauge after loading.

edited to make clear: There is not a 9mm Luger die in existence that can touch the last .001 - .002 of the body of the case. None. You can clear more on a single stage if set up to cam over, but you will still have that last bit of the body that isn't touched. You can't cam over on a progressive, because you'll get deflection (well, you can get away with it on a 550 because of the shell plate design to a degree). On a fast progressive, especially with automation, you end up with about .003 to .005 that isn't touched, so the problem is even worse. The only way to get that last bit of the body is a roll sizer, or through die. Through dies don't work on a 9mm Luger, why there isn't a commercial one available. That last little bit is where the bulge occurs on certain firearms, well most, but certain ones to a greater degree than others...which is why bulk brass without a known provenance is where the risk is.

 

[nettlle]

Well yeah. Having a roll sizer would make my Dillon sizing die look like a champ also. Those rascals range from $590.00 to $1725.00.

 

[EricBu]

Well yeah. Having a roll sizer would make my Dillon sizing die look like a champ also. Those rascals range from $590.00 to $1725.00.

Doesn't matter what die you use, you cannot touch the base of the case. You can't do it, not a 9mm luger die in the world that does it. And there are no commercial through dies for 9mm luger, because of the taper. That's why I said, it's not the dillon die, the problem exists with ALL 9MM luger dies. I mean, physics are physics...lol. But heck, buy a different die. The die makers can use a boost. I go through a lot of them....I've done the same numbers on RCBS, Redding, Lyman, you name it. There is no difference in the number of rejects I had with non-dillon dies to dillon dies, which is why I stated the die is not the problem. There is not a 9mm Luger die made that can touch that last .001 to .002... the only reliable and safe way to deal with it minus a roll sizer investment, is to simply discard the ones that don't gauge after sizing. You can use any of the work arounds, it's your gun, but you will be increasing your risk when running bulk range pickup brass, but that's your choice, luckily, you now know that risk. FYI, the only reason I use Dillon dies is because when I wear them out or they break, or whatever...Dillon doesn't bat an eye and replaces them in a day via email.

 

[nettlle]

I understand what you are saying and your frankness and patience is much appreciated. I'll give the $21.00 Lee die a try. After all it's already paid for and in the mail. Never had this kind of problem with any other other caliber so I need to know when to back down.

 

[EricBu]

I understand what you are saying and your frankness and patience is much appreciated. I'll give the $21.00 Lee die a try. After all it's already paid for and in the mail. Never had this kind of problem with any other other caliber so I need to know when to back down.

Give it a try for sure, maybe it will cut down the rejects. Put a piece of sharpie painted brass in your shell plate, and size it. Measure the portion of brass that wasn't touched. That's your danger zone. If that brass was shot in a gun with a large unsupported area, that line you measured wont be sized, and it might have a bulge. Now, it might not be an issue in the particular gun you shoot. But it may also be a time bomb...because that tiny bulge might be located in such a way that it lets your gun go just far enough into battery to fire (ever had to slap your slide to seat a round?), but not be quite far enough into battery to be safe. If Murphy is around, maybe this is the time that tolerance stacking adds up in his favor...and you get a kaboom. That's the risk. Roll sizers are expensive, that's why the next best thing is size, then gauge and discard the fails. Its 9mm luger, its not expensive, certainly cheaper than a hand.

 

[JerkyFreak]

For 9mm, the Makarov FCD is used as the Bulge-buster die. It forces the web back into spec again. It doesn't matter about the taper as your normal sizing die will take care of that. When I get range brass that seems iffy, they all go through the Makarov die first. Avoids any problems later.

A Dillon sizing die does not size to the web. My running theory at present is that this allows the web/casewall transition to expand progressively with every use to the point where it does not chamber. Keeping pressure mild delays the time until you get problems requiring a roll sizer, but you will get problems. The Lee sizing die sizes slightly past the start of the web. This does not allow the web area to keep expanding with subsequent uses.

With range brass, you will very quickly feel (the extra effort to size) and see (a ridge above the case rim) when a case won't pass the case gauge.

And yes, I have both Dillon and Lee dies so I have done a side-by-side comparison.

 

[EricBu]

As posted, lots of folks take shortcuts, and lots of people think their shortcuts work, and cannot be convinced otherwise. Save a buck, lose a hand, lol.

 

[JerkyFreak]

Which shortcut are you referring to?

 

[EricBu]

Which shortcut are you referring to?

The mak fcd of course. The funniest thing is all the people using it...and not realizing they cracked the carbide ring, and it's actually not doing anything....or the fact that much of the time you're sizing the rim too..Its a shortcut that really doesn't work. I'll say it again...to safely do range pickup 9mm Luger, you have 2 choices. Rollsize, or process the brass first, case gauge it before loading, and discard the fails. I suppose you could just load it, then break down the fails if you wanted. Or you can use the mak fcd and hope. Like I said, your hand, your gun. "I've done a thousand with no problem". Lol, then number 1001...kaboom.