A partnership for powdercoating.
- Thread starter blarby
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LiveLife
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This concern was brought up in other threads but my browsing of various powder coating/alternate powder coating threads at castboolits forum did not result in anything definite that indicated/measured actual bore wear (and many have already shot thousands of rounds of powder coated bullets in their barrels).
I planned to shoot powder coated bullets in factory Glock barrels which are surface hardened but since I have several Lone Wolf barrels (stainless steel barrels without surface hardening) that have been slugged to known bore and groove diameters, I thought about doing a wear test to see if I could measure the effects of any abrasives in the powder coating.
Stay tuned.
Update: OK, found a thread that discussed barrel wear from powder coated bullets but without any definite conclusions - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?233305-Abrasiveness-of-PC-bullets
According to Harbor Freight MSDS, Calcite is listed for black and Titanium dioxide for red/yellow/white - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...f-PC-bullets&p=2673839&viewfull=1#post2673839
My guess is that casters/reloaders have been shooting powder coated bullets of various brand/colors for a few years now and many have several thousands of rounds shot in the same barrel. If barrel wear was evident, it should have started to affect shot group size and accuracy but we have not seen either problems posted in various forum threads.
I planned to shoot powder coated bullets in factory Glock barrels which are surface hardened but since I have several Lone Wolf barrels (stainless steel barrels without surface hardening) that have been slugged to known bore and groove diameters, I thought about doing a wear test to see if I could measure the effects of any abrasives in the powder coating.
Stay tuned.
Update: OK, found a thread that discussed barrel wear from powder coated bullets but without any definite conclusions - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?233305-Abrasiveness-of-PC-bullets
According to Harbor Freight MSDS, Calcite is listed for black and Titanium dioxide for red/yellow/white - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...f-PC-bullets&p=2673839&viewfull=1#post2673839
My guess is that casters/reloaders have been shooting powder coated bullets of various brand/colors for a few years now and many have several thousands of rounds shot in the same barrel. If barrel wear was evident, it should have started to affect shot group size and accuracy but we have not seen either problems posted in various forum threads.
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Kuyong_Chuin
Member
Anything new to report?
blarby
Member
Not yet- its been a crazy weeknchange !
Should have some 44 testing done tomorrow.
Should have some 44 testing done tomorrow.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
Thanks keep us up to date please.
blarby
Member
Ok, some new stuff to report from yesterdays range outing :
Shot 90 of the .401 Tumble lubes through my glock23 without incident. Some of these were a little...warm... and you could smell the PC cooking, but no residue. I think I'll stay with the 8grs of BlueDot- very accurate load, and a doublecharge would certainly be very noticeable !
One thing I have found is that some of the rounds do have a protrusion of PC at the crimp line, but it does not seem to impair function. I saved an entire magazine of these to fire last, and they all fired flawlessly. I will try and get a pic of this occurence this weekend.
Got to fire my first 240g TLSWC's out of my ruger superblackhawk as well.
Since I know the strength of this gun, I was able to make some extremely warm loads (1450+fps)using the very last of my H110 and they produced zero fouling.
I also shot all of the 8gr unique loads that are my common load for this gun that I brought with me- and although the barrel had clearly been fired from the powder residue, there was not a trace of lead.
I'd like to note on this one that my 8 gr unique load using LLA also produces no leading using a water dropped wheel-weight bullet, however.
This weekend I'll be making more ammo, and be preparing for an in-law visit, so updates will be ...thin.... up until probably the first weekend in July.
Shot 90 of the .401 Tumble lubes through my glock23 without incident. Some of these were a little...warm... and you could smell the PC cooking, but no residue. I think I'll stay with the 8grs of BlueDot- very accurate load, and a doublecharge would certainly be very noticeable !
One thing I have found is that some of the rounds do have a protrusion of PC at the crimp line, but it does not seem to impair function. I saved an entire magazine of these to fire last, and they all fired flawlessly. I will try and get a pic of this occurence this weekend.
Got to fire my first 240g TLSWC's out of my ruger superblackhawk as well.
Since I know the strength of this gun, I was able to make some extremely warm loads (1450+fps)using the very last of my H110 and they produced zero fouling.
I also shot all of the 8gr unique loads that are my common load for this gun that I brought with me- and although the barrel had clearly been fired from the powder residue, there was not a trace of lead.
I'd like to note on this one that my 8 gr unique load using LLA also produces no leading using a water dropped wheel-weight bullet, however.
This weekend I'll be making more ammo, and be preparing for an in-law visit, so updates will be ...thin.... up until probably the first weekend in July.
clearcut
Member
I shot my 7.65 x53 mouser w/red hf pc @2200+- fps no lead at all.
CC
CC
blarby
Member
Not much to add this week, unfortunately.
Car repairs. Takes all the time out of life....
In any event, I am getting around to the .357 mag testing.... soon.
We'll be using the 158g LSWC's sized to .358. For initial testing I'll be using 4.5 grains of unique at a COAL of 1.585 to correspond to the crimp groove.
Something that popped up again on this one that is worth noting :
Much like with plated bullets, make sure and leave yourself some extra "flare" in the expanding step. PC shaves just like anything else.
Car repairs. Takes all the time out of life....
In any event, I am getting around to the .357 mag testing.... soon.
We'll be using the 158g LSWC's sized to .358. For initial testing I'll be using 4.5 grains of unique at a COAL of 1.585 to correspond to the crimp groove.
Something that popped up again on this one that is worth noting :
Much like with plated bullets, make sure and leave yourself some extra "flare" in the expanding step. PC shaves just like anything else.
blarby
Member
blarby
Member
Ask and ye shall receive.....
150g PC Spitzer
.308 Winchester out of a Ruger II Target rifle
42.0 H4895 ( didn't have my chrony this weekend, sadly. Math says 2600 FPS+ from a standard length BBL, mine is a target length)
These were.... erratic, in that I couldn't get a group to hold under 3" at 100 yards. This rifle, however, also has a penchant for 180 grain bullets cooked REALLY hot.
I will add that the slugs were not hardened after oven cooking the PC on, and they had some significant weight variation- this "150" ran 153+ on each bullet, and they were not what I would call remarkably uniform in weight.
However there was zero barrel fouling.
My next test on these is going to be in the VEPR belonging to the Mrs., now that I know they shouldn't cause too much issue.
Safetychain
Member
I've been following this thread for over a month now. It really looks like it is the new way to shoot lead. I really appreciate the time and effort of this partnership. I know that the testing is not finished yet but I'm getting the itch. My immediate interest would be for what I have molds for, .45 230 gr and .30-30 250 gr. for a gas check though I've been looking at 380ACP, 9mm, .40 & .44. I've been on the road since this thread was started, otherwise I would have been testing this method myself.
Can you take a little time and summarize your results so far? It is a little difficult for me to keep track of who is commenting vs testing to get a clear answer to some of the pertinent points. Have you come up with any kind of speed limit where the coating fails, with & w/o gas checks? It appears that you are using a sizer before and after coating? My lubrisizer looks like it would shear any coating off. Would there be a problem sizing a cast boollit and then coating and using at the increased diameter or would it be necessary to get a smaller sizer? How about my 30-30 boollit with the gas check left off? Are you quenching powder coated bullets?
With the outrageous expense of 30-30 jacketed bullets, I am looking for a way to go lead with the other 4-5 calibers of handgun and rifle bullets that I shoot and more easily avoid leading problems. I have the itch but will be on the road for another 2 months so there is no hurry. I'm sure that upon completion, there will be a thorough "PCWWWD" Powder Coating, What Works, What Doesn't treatise on the subject. I am looking forward to this. I purchased a couple of thousand Precision Bullets with a coating of some sort to try when I get home.
Can you take a little time and summarize your results so far? It is a little difficult for me to keep track of who is commenting vs testing to get a clear answer to some of the pertinent points. Have you come up with any kind of speed limit where the coating fails, with & w/o gas checks? It appears that you are using a sizer before and after coating? My lubrisizer looks like it would shear any coating off. Would there be a problem sizing a cast boollit and then coating and using at the increased diameter or would it be necessary to get a smaller sizer? How about my 30-30 boollit with the gas check left off? Are you quenching powder coated bullets?
With the outrageous expense of 30-30 jacketed bullets, I am looking for a way to go lead with the other 4-5 calibers of handgun and rifle bullets that I shoot and more easily avoid leading problems. I have the itch but will be on the road for another 2 months so there is no hurry. I'm sure that upon completion, there will be a thorough "PCWWWD" Powder Coating, What Works, What Doesn't treatise on the subject. I am looking forward to this. I purchased a couple of thousand Precision Bullets with a coating of some sort to try when I get home.
VenomBallistics
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my, how the years have passed by
I didn't even know I had joined this site.
anywho, I was referred to this thread from elsewhere.
Now, don't take my advise as flaming in any way. I respect the work and research being done here as your exploring methods that open the door to all who dare try, at least in as much as to test drive powder coated heavy metal supplements.
If you really want to get serious, you need an electrostatic spray gun.
As luck would have it, Harbor Freight has them on sale right now, for about $65
Trust me, it'll lay powder thicker and faster than trying to reinvent the vandegraf generator with gladware on the living room carpet.
I just got one last week, and have played around with this enough to throw ya some of my early findings.
with the ES gun, it is the one coat and your done holy grail you seek.
The gun comes with 3 tips .. the smallest seems to be the one for the job.
Its rated for 10 - 30 PSI .. 12 to 15 has been nearly ideal for me, yours may vary.
However, your coating rack must be able to go directly to the oven without having to handle the bullets. you'll only knock the powder off.
Parchment paper is your friend.
a sheet of parchment paper on your spraying / baking plate, keeps things reasonably clean.
while you'd expect the parchment to be non conductive, the 10kV operating voltage of the ES gun will overcome the dielectric and charge the pills sitting on top.
This works fairly well for flat points.
Base down seems to result in all the pills releasing from the plate in a sheet of powder coat over spray. Sizing seems to deal with the flash to a great degree.
The best show in town is the hollow point.
drill holes in a coating plate and either weld nails or drive screws through it to place the bullets on ... no flash issues there.
however, do try to keep the spikes as straight as possible so that parchment paper can be impaled and run down to keep the plate reasonably clean.
a lot of work goes into making such a plate. only makes sense to try to preserve it.
I didn't even know I had joined this site.
anywho, I was referred to this thread from elsewhere.
Now, don't take my advise as flaming in any way. I respect the work and research being done here as your exploring methods that open the door to all who dare try, at least in as much as to test drive powder coated heavy metal supplements.
If you really want to get serious, you need an electrostatic spray gun.
As luck would have it, Harbor Freight has them on sale right now, for about $65
Trust me, it'll lay powder thicker and faster than trying to reinvent the vandegraf generator with gladware on the living room carpet.
I just got one last week, and have played around with this enough to throw ya some of my early findings.
with the ES gun, it is the one coat and your done holy grail you seek.
The gun comes with 3 tips .. the smallest seems to be the one for the job.
Its rated for 10 - 30 PSI .. 12 to 15 has been nearly ideal for me, yours may vary.
However, your coating rack must be able to go directly to the oven without having to handle the bullets. you'll only knock the powder off.
Parchment paper is your friend.
a sheet of parchment paper on your spraying / baking plate, keeps things reasonably clean.
while you'd expect the parchment to be non conductive, the 10kV operating voltage of the ES gun will overcome the dielectric and charge the pills sitting on top.
This works fairly well for flat points.
Base down seems to result in all the pills releasing from the plate in a sheet of powder coat over spray. Sizing seems to deal with the flash to a great degree.
The best show in town is the hollow point.
drill holes in a coating plate and either weld nails or drive screws through it to place the bullets on ... no flash issues there.
however, do try to keep the spikes as straight as possible so that parchment paper can be impaled and run down to keep the plate reasonably clean.
a lot of work goes into making such a plate. only makes sense to try to preserve it.
blarby
Member
See BDS, we shoulda got the gun
It will require two passes for top and bottom coating to prevent direct lead exposure to the end user from the projectiles, but since we've basically decided two coats are going to be required anyway.....
Thanks for your input, Venom.
When I have space to accomodate an air compressor and the related accoutrements (including a spray area), we'll give this a dazzle.
It will require two passes for top and bottom coating to prevent direct lead exposure to the end user from the projectiles, but since we've basically decided two coats are going to be required anyway.....
Thanks for your input, Venom.
When I have space to accomodate an air compressor and the related accoutrements (including a spray area), we'll give this a dazzle.
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VenomBallistics
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well .. with my post count of 12 after this, your the one who'll have to prove it, as my credibility is still in the mail.
The gun can do it in one coat, with the result being like the 45 auto "red ball express" in the pic.
the lead dot on the nose kinda has a certain charm about it if you ask me.
but your correct about two coats for total encapsulation ... if you truly require it.
The way I see it, while the ES gun methods are best, they can be a little spendy for those who just want to take it for a test drive. Therefore the non ES methods do require a solid, and well established road map to a reasonable result before they throw money at equipment they don't yet know they need
The gun can do it in one coat, with the result being like the 45 auto "red ball express" in the pic.
the lead dot on the nose kinda has a certain charm about it if you ask me.
but your correct about two coats for total encapsulation ... if you truly require it.
The way I see it, while the ES gun methods are best, they can be a little spendy for those who just want to take it for a test drive. Therefore the non ES methods do require a solid, and well established road map to a reasonable result before they throw money at equipment they don't yet know they need
LiveLife
Member
Now you have done it! Now the whole gun forum will know my name ... just don't start calling me Mr. Doe.blarby said:See [Insert favorite name here
Yes about the gun but we already knew that. I thought the point of this project was to explore the "alternative" powder coating methods to provide 95%+ coverage which one-shot gun application would not provide.
If you are looking at 2 spray/bake process, I think 2 full coatings of tumble coating would be my choice still to provide complete sealing of lead surfaces.
I guess we could always do a side-by-side comparison ...
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VenomBallistics
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The alternative methods are not without merit. and should be developed as much as possible. Its the entry point for the common man.
ultimately, the alternative will be dropped in favor of ES guns after the alternatives have proven it's worth.
I PC'ed about 50 pounds of bullets in about 4 hours ... mostly screwing around refining the ES gun methods ... you can't ignore that
ultimately, the alternative will be dropped in favor of ES guns after the alternatives have proven it's worth.
I PC'ed about 50 pounds of bullets in about 4 hours ... mostly screwing around refining the ES gun methods ... you can't ignore that
VenomBallistics
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well I took a peek inside my ES guns power unit.
dayam these things are actually pretty simple ... switched flyback.
and thats about all Im saying, because if someone needs to ask what that is, they have no business playing with it.
so much for DIY plate charging.
But still wanting to give ideas to the cause, I recall a powder coating product for fishing jigs. You simply got the jig head hot and dipped it in the powder which caused it to adhere .... heated again to flow it smooth.
I wonder if one could not preheat a rack of uncoated pills and do a little stuff hits the fan in a closed box kinda thing to help this adhesion thing along?
I should probably stress the closed box point ... divorce can be a costly affair.
heck .. if it works at all ... the speed might put it on par with the spray gun
dayam these things are actually pretty simple ... switched flyback.
and thats about all Im saying, because if someone needs to ask what that is, they have no business playing with it.
so much for DIY plate charging.
But still wanting to give ideas to the cause, I recall a powder coating product for fishing jigs. You simply got the jig head hot and dipped it in the powder which caused it to adhere .... heated again to flow it smooth.
I wonder if one could not preheat a rack of uncoated pills and do a little stuff hits the fan in a closed box kinda thing to help this adhesion thing along?
I should probably stress the closed box point ... divorce can be a costly affair.
heck .. if it works at all ... the speed might put it on par with the spray gun
blarby
Member
Dangit- You're one of like a brajillion people on this forum with the same name, and it slipped.
My apologies ! Its been edited out though, so we can do some creative editing-forward.
It was, I was just ribbing you about the dang gun again
Not that I really have room for more kit at this point... or time ! Time ! its summer, and suddenly I have ZERO time.
So I am guessing these are gas checked? If not, that is pretty impressive. If they are gas checked, I wonder if you have shot a similar load without the PC?
My gas checked cast rifle bullets will start to "lose weight" when pushed too hard, resulting in poor accuracy and a silvery flash hider. But there is still zero barrel fouling - at least after shooting up the one test batch. It's not like I make up a bunch if the load isn't accurate.
LiveLife
Member
And I have the time but it's 106 F outside!!!blarby said:
I say you are still better off than me.
If you don't mind seeing bare lead top of truncated cone bullets like for your 40S&W Glock, ES gun would be fine to use for 1 coat.
Schwing
Member
Free powder coating oven?
LiveLife
Member
No, I am afraid just baked reloader and lonely bullets ...
VenomBallistics
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kinda like recent work on 45-70 loads.
not the kind of rifle you want to shoot in extended sessions wearing only a T shirt ... not the kind of weather for wearing a jacket
not the kind of rifle you want to shoot in extended sessions wearing only a T shirt ... not the kind of weather for wearing a jacket
VenomBallistics
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I think I have a way around that.
So..... I made a YouTube video to demonstrate the method to achieve total encapsulation with the one shot es method.
http://youtu.be/8NotmeYCPpg
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