A partnership for powdercoating.

[VenomBallistics]

elsewhere ... we've been offering our stocks of lube to one such nay sayer ... he fell silent and we moved on to trying to figure out new and interesting ways to use it .... that might not end well

 

[Schwing]

I thought the same but the thing was that after the first test of 8, I used extra precautions of wearing the 3M respirator when processing range brass and thought I would see a lower lead level on the next visit.

My doctor and I were both surprised when the level increased to 12, even with the precautions I took. She asked, "What did you do?" and when I told her I had done a lot of load development range tests at the indoor range and shot almost on a weekly basis, and on some weekends several times. She told me to stop shooting at the indoor range until the following lead test. Well, I told her since it was approaching summer heat, it was too hot for me to shoot at outdoor ranges also.

But I agreed to not shoot until the next lab test so I have been doing other things (yes, I am being careful and using gloves, respirator, etc.). So when blarby's interest in powder coating increased, I told him, "Well, funny thing happened at the doctor's office." I think we both agree powder coating has merits for reducing exposure to lead.

I had a scare a little over a year ago when mine jumped to 32. My doctor was not very concerned he just said to lay off the lead for a few months and be more careful. I think mine was from tumbling both brass and finished rounds in my office and a lot of indoor shooting. I also spent about 4 hours a week at my outdoor range.

I bought one of those 3m masks for indoors and tumble outside now. I have not been back for a retest in almost a year but, after only about 2 months with the mask and precautions, I was down to 21. I am glad you posted this because I am about to call my doc for the test I was supposed to have last year

 

[VenomBallistics]

while off topic, this does illustrate an issue.
one Doc says 12 is the end of the world, another meets 32 without much more than a raised eyebrow.
they DO know what normal levels are, and we all know the ideal level is zero, but it seems there's no real definition of dangerous levels.
The CDC seems to run an anti gun bias in many of the reports where it can be employed. The AMA seems a little more neutral but still runs with CDC data without question.
we may very well invent a whole new sporting arm system before they ever sort this out.

Even within medical circles, there are more than enough contradictions pertaining to the issue to call the facts opinions.

For example, this is taken from the U.S. National Library of Medicine
From the National Institutes of Health

Normal Results

Adults:

Less than 20 micrograms/dL of lead in the blood

Children:

Less than 10 micrograms/dL of lead in the blood

Note: dL = deciliter

Normal value ranges may vary slightly among different laboratories. Talk to your doctor about the meaning of your specific test results.

The examples above show the common measurements for results for these tests. Some laboratories use different measurements or may test different specimens.

Meanwhile, these are taken from New York Department of Health.
( note the shift placing the pediatric norm into the adult norm)
(Also note that NY misspelled occurring as occuring)
Also note the weasel words and phrases. "may" As they never definitively proven anything but will put it out there just in case.
and "Normal value ranges may vary slightly among different laboratories"
Umm .... yeah ..... I was always under the impression that laboratory equipment was inspected and calibrated regularly. Just what do those inspection seals mean on this stuff if results may vary ... at all.
The .308 FMJs we made in America, where still .308 when we shot Germans with em during WW2 with M1's in wildly uncontrolled environments.
We manage decent standards on our loading benches, why can't they at many times the price?

What Lead Levels are Considered Elevated in Adults?

At levels above 80 µg/dL, serious, permanent health damage may occur (extremely dangerous).
Between 40 and 80 µg/dL, serious health damage may be occuring, even if there are no symptoms (seriously elevated).
Between 25 and 40 µg/dL, regular exposure is occuring. There is some evidence of potential physiologic problems (elevated).
Between 10 and 25 µg/dL, lead is building up in the body and some exposure is occuring.

The typical level for U.S. adults is less than 10 µg/dL (mean = 3 µg/dL).

Now back to irregularly scheduled abnormal programing already in progress ...

 

[LiveLife]

one Doc says 12 is the end of the world

My doctor's concern was not that my lead level was 12 but it went from 8 to 12 with me taking the necessary precautions (including using 3M respirator for range brass processing/handling). It was the continued increase in lead level that made her concerned.

Let's not hijack this thread anymore than what we already have done to blarby and forward the discussion to an already existing lead thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=307170&page=10

That way we can maintain the focus of this thread which is discussing the benefits of powder coating lead bullets.

 

[VenomBallistics]

Hence my closing statement "Now back to irregularly scheduled abnormal programming already in progress"

With lead abatement being one of the factors involved with coating processes, it is really easy to bird walk into the medical side of it.

Seeing as PC seems to go head to head with the Aussie Hi Tek process, I kinda wonder which system would be better at lead abatement.
I think the test requirements would be exceedingly difficult to achieve ... so ....


I found this powder to play with.
It'll be a while before I can get myself into a position to do any serious velocity testing to see if this stuff can offer up any advantages over the HF dust or the PBTP Super durable.
so I'll put this one out there for any takers.
http://www.allpowderpaints.com/powder-coating-colors/teflon-slip-black/
Given its stated applications for fairly grueling duties in the product description, it will hold up at least as well as any other powder.
The fact that it has self lubricating properties just might tack on some velocity within a given load, perhaps even significant gains.
wont know till we try.
I'd do cartwheels if it made 1200 FPS in a 230 grain 45 ACP load at standard pressure ... by no means am I counting on that, its quite lofty, but man .. thats some serious medicine if it would.

 

[dunno556]

Didn't get started yesterday as I ended up going to a job interview @ 10AM and from there the day just spiraled away.

I would imagine if my 9mm experiment works out. That would be enough to say you can push those 230g 45's at that speed.

The load, previously posted, that I run my 9's with is supposed to give around 1300 fps.

The test guns, (not tested by me), were a Ruger P-85 & a Berreta 92-F yielding 1.25" - 2" groups @ 20yds

Once I get around to it I'll work up some test rounds, prolly starting around 5.8. Then 6, 6.2, 6.3, 6.4 & finally if I have not witnessed any leading by then, 6.5. Which is what I shoot the XTP's at.

I don't own a crony "yet". If I get the job, maybe I'll order one as I always wonder what I'm "actually" getting from my reloads.
And, for the purposes of these experiments, it would be nice to know the real #'s. Any suggestions as to which crono to buy. Or which ones to stay away from would be even better.

Just FYI.
None of what I'm posting has been extruded from my posterior exit.
Ken Waters Pet Loads Complete Volume from Handloader page 725, second paragraph.

 

[dunno556]

Part 1

Finally got to try out hot tumbling.

Unfortunately the toaster oven that I have had tasking up space in my garage for 10 yrs is not quite what would be needed for this. There is no temp control only a selector for the lower element or the upper or both and a timer :banghead:

I gave it a shot anyway. Heated them for about 10 min. Then dumped them into the can with air soft BB's and about a TBSP of PC.

The PC stuck to them "fairly" well. I was hoping to see them partly melted at worst. But they looked "powder" coated. But for the most part did not rub off completely from handling them.

Some of them stuck together, see pics. I "think" they got stuck from git. Not during the 10 minute tumble.

After sizing them again, (after baking them for 15 min), I only had 17 out of 50 that I would consider usable for this experiment

I'll still shoot the crappy ones just not at j speeds.

If I had a temp control this would probably have come out better IMO.

 

[dunno556]

Part 2

As you can see the toaster pan is very small and may have been over crowded for this particular usage.
You can also see that 2 of them actually started to melt the PC

There were a few that stuck end to end, so I sprinkled PC on the parchment to fix them after pulling them apart. Unfortunately, it seems my sprinkling abilities are a bit lacking and I over did it. I sprinkled the whole lot as I figured a little extra on the bottoms would be a good thing. Not in this case though. This caused the PC to crack off the bottom band area when sizing, making them rejects.



I'm thinking that the 17 good ones would be enough to do a test?

I have never had an issue with leading before, nor knew anyone that did.
I'm thinking I have enough to run about 3 shots for each step up in charge weights. Would this be sufficient or would I need to run more through it to even begin to notice leading?

Or should I just say screw it till I get a proper toaster oven?
From this half assed test, it appears to show "some" promise.

Cuz like my name says... I "dunno" at this point.

 

[VenomBallistics]

I'm beating the coating like a rented mule.
Yes I did get the coat to fail, which seems to be right around 2500 fps.
Leading, if it happens, will be in the corners of the rifling, and nothing as obvious as the smooth bore conversation in lead that happens without pc.
17 is a fair start.
More would be better of course, but going by your pictures, you're pretty close to a one shot solution there
run batches of 10 to 15 at a time and hammer out the method a little more.
20% success rates hurt less when the quantities are small.

 

[dunno556]

Thanks for the info Venom.
The crappy oven really hurt the process. Wish I had opened the box previously

Based on your 2500fps I think I will just load them the same as the XTP's and see what happens. I can always stop off at my favorite store to hate and pick up one of those poor boy pads to clean the barrel out "IF" necessary.
Doesn't sound like I will need to though.

More about my 1st attempt...

I did add the rumble strips inside the can, didn't mention it before.
I "think" the clumped boolits were from the dumping of the hot boolits into the can. It takes a minute to put the lid on securely and get it on the tumbler & spinning.

I put in the BB's, air soft, see pic below. Then added about 1 TBSP PC. I cook a lot, and am good at estimating via dumping into the palm of my hand.
I shook the can slightly to get the PC down into the BB's a bit.

Maybe add the PC first to help avoid the clumping and I'm pretty sure the boolits need to be hotter as well

The pic of the can only shows 2 rumble strips, there are 3. Attached w/ 1/2" self tappers from the outside. Since the hot melt sticks are shorter than the can, I put one on the bottom, one in the middle and one at the top. Equally spaced by eye.

With the BB's it was surprisingly quiet. Probably not quiet enough for female/wife/GF ears. Go figure. I did this in my garage btw

I added pics of the BB's after tumbling. One to show the brand & one to see more of the actual BB's. They only have a slight coating on them. So it's not like they are wasting a lot of the PC.

I think I'll run a batch of 25 tomorrow. I'll preheat the boolits for 20 min this time with my crappy oven. Hopefully they don't melt. My infrared gadget quits somewhere around 220°

I had previously said I would just melt down the rejects.
Now I think I'll just shoot them as regular Pb loads minus the smoke

PS
While doing research about this topic. I ended up looking into swaging.
Seriously thinking about it for the .224 as the initial cost is much lower than a full blown kit.
Still pricey for the average Joe not the plumber. But recycling 22LR's, which litter most ranges.
Combined with using plain lead, (BHN 5-6), seems to be not that bad of an idea.

So thanks guys <-- LOL

PPS
Not trying to start a conversation on swaging BTW.

 

[VenomBallistics]

I'd take a few preventative steps here.
I really forsee the hot melt sticks doing what they are designed to do at some point.
The bb's might hold up. I am not sure when they melt.
Given the nature of your oven, try putting a small amount of powder on a sacrificial bullet while you heat the batch.
When it melts, they are ready.

 

[dunno556]

I agree Venom.

As far as the glue sticks melting.
I don't think they will with all the BB's sucking up the heat.
It would be an easy fix though. rubber fuel line or similar should work?

I had considered putting the can on top of the oven to warm them up.
But then I probably would not be able to put the PC powder in the bottom of the can ?

If they do melt though, I kinda have an oh well attitude towards it.
All part of the learning curve, ya know.

As far as running the 17 survivors down the barrel.
I'll only shoot 1 or 2 and disassemble to look down the barrel.
XD's are remarkably easy to take apart.

If it's as clean as when I got there I'll run 3 or 4 more and check the barrel again.

I have no intention of blowing myself or my gun up in the search for a cheap way to powder coat.

I'm already leaning towards the "idea" that the ES kit + a proper oven would most likely be "the cheap way" to do this.
Especially "if" I have to preheat them longer AND can only run small batches.

After all... time really is money.

As it stands, round two will take approximately 30 - 35 minutes of processing time. not including the prep. Prep would be at least 5 min.

So 40 minutes to get a batch of 25 bullets, IMO, is not a good deal.
I'm sure someone would feel otherwise, but I have other things to do and would want a method that would allow me to make at least 100 for the same time as above.
Preferably 500.

"IF" I can get this method to work on a batch of 25 with the equipment I have on hand though.
I would think a larger/better oven and a larger can would then make that happen.
Although I think the 1 gal can could easily accommodate 200 - 250, maybe more.

On that note, maybe adding more would keep everything hot enough to get a good tumbling going and keep them from clumping together as well?

Right now I'm unemployed, working here & there sorta self employed, as I can find it.
So making any large purchases is on hold.
But if the 25 count method works. I would definitely get a better oven, ($25-$30), to see if the larger batches would work out.

If I get a "real" job before then, I'm thinking a convection type toaster would be the way to go for larger batches.
More even heating... but I'm getting ahead of myself now.

It's easy to over look things or get tunnel vision when experimenting.
Any & all thoughts appreciated.

 

[dunno556]

I have a bunch of 9MM that were cast/tucked away, a while ago.
After weighing a bunch, average weight is 7.1 grams.
So by weight, this container holds 601 115g SWC.

The tumbler has a capacity of 2lbs with the larger drum, which weighs 7lbs 3 oz.
So I'll call it a 9lb TOTAL capacity

The 601 boolits are 4269 grams = 9lb 6.5846oz.
So the equipment I have, except the toaster, will handle the weight of what I want to be the end result.

Everything will also fit into a 1 gal can with plenty of room to spare as well.
By everything, I mean somewhere between 200 & 500 boolits, BB's, & PC
Haven't weighed the paint can yet to nail down the exact # that would max out the operation.

Leaving off 4lb for the can, BB's & PC
I can run 5lb batches, which in this case would be 300 115g SWC

**Most #'s have been rounded down

Unless anyone has any thoughts on this, I'll give ya'll a break and post the results of the 17 on Mon or Tues. Supposed to rain Mon. We'll see
Gonna take a milk jug or 2 along to see if I can catch one too

Hey bds, did ya get that mold drilled out yet?

 

[VenomBallistics]

thats why I say 10 - 15 at a time at this point .. time is money, if you can cast 200, and refine the process 10 at a time .. thats 20 chances to get lucky.
once you do .. by all means, adjust the quantities as seen fit.

Model airplane fuel line is soft and flexible, it can also withstand the heat of molten lead if tasked to do so.

I tend to agree that the ES kit is the way to fly. However, look at your immediate situation.
You have a few odds and ends and just enough to make something work.
I suppose an ES gun, compressor, and sleazy bake oven might kinda equate a lube sizer in its own way.
You graduate to it after your done pan lubing.
In coating, you graduate from the shake and bake academy.
it's good form to carve a few good tips into your desk for the next student who will likely hop aboard while looking at his own resources, not too dissimilar from your own.

Im pretty sure that coatings do fowl, though I haven't seem much evidence of it.
It could be that the fowling gets incinerated and blown out while you shoot.
end result, is that the gun will clean up faster and easier than it would shooting jacketed or plated. If I wasn't sold on it with a tight high velocity group out of a rifle, that part finished the sale.
try not to wear out your take down mechanism.

Im not sure I'd want a convection oven for this ...
its dust, easily carried by air.
I'd suspect that while the temp is rising, powder would be blowing till it flashed over.
eventually, you'd have a very thick coat in places you just cant clean.

I too could use more oven, as is with my various plates Ive made for coating and cooking, I can do batches of about 70 - 100.
Ill roll with it till it pukes though.
figure 5 full batches will keep you shooting for a good while.

 

[VenomBallistics]

since I know the redline for the HF powder to be right around 2500 FPS. I figured I'd get a tad more spendy, but not much more, and order up a few different powders to see if I can't manage a few hundred more FPS.
Im also noodling with some alloys to see if I can get them to group well at these higher speeds too.

Alloy kinda makes me think a bit as to just how hard we really need to cast pistol bullets.
2200 is a speed no standard handgun can reach, and 2200 was about where the accuracy fell apart in a rifle using WW lead.
I have some dead soft lead from a dentist that needs a purpose in life, so I figure I can kick some minions in a 44 magnum to see if PC can give us some latitude with BHN.
If so ... we all have expanding bullets, that otherwise behaved like FMJ

 

[A Pause for the Coz]

Why powder coat a bullet? What does that do for you?

Since I 1st started this last winter. I have pretty much migrated all my pistol loads to Powder Coated bullets. Pretty much for the same reasons people have already given.
But there was one thing that powder coated bullets can pull off that standard cast/ lubed bullets could not. This has tripped the trigger for me.

Powder coated bullets can be used in Hornady bullet feed dies.
I had tried for over a year to get my cast bullets to feed with varying degrees of success. Eventually you always end up tearing the die apart to clean out the lube.
Not with powder coated. They feed just the same as copper plated bullets.

If your feeding a bunch of kids who like carbines. Being able to knock out a coffee can full of 45acp's fast and on the cheap. Is real nice.

I only do one rifle caliber. 223 for my AR. Working well in that use.









Here is a copy of the Lyman 311299 scaled down to a 75gr bullet for .223

 

[VenomBallistics]

Don't forget that there is more than one color.
Handy thing when you have the same bullet doing multiple duties.

 

[dunno556]

Thanks for "pausing" to verify what I had a good suspicion of already. I don't own the case or bullet feeders yet. I kinda figured it would solve the problems you mentioned.

I've had my LNL for about 2.5 yrs now. Had some health issues that prevented me from using it very much until recently.
So as not to derail the thread, I'll just say that I have yet to get it to work properly.
Even after getting some new parts for it. Gonna have to get on the phone, AGAIN, real soon.

I decided to do a little research on the load I'm using for my test run just to be able to say I covered all the bases. 4 bases, 4 manuals

Ken Waters says 6.5g AA#5 gives just under 1300fps
Hornady 4th edition says 6.6g AA#5 gives 1200fps
Midway Load Map says 6.5g AA#5 gives 1180fps
They are all max loads from those manuals using 115g HP/XTP
Lyman #49 does not list AA#5 for 115g HP/XTP
They do list it for 120g cast @ 6g max 1150fps

I have them loaded up now. I believe I started w/ 55 boolits.
17 came out in a condition to take the beating of a j bullet.
24 I loaded w/3.8g Bullseye, which is starting charge for 120g cast.
They had slight imperfections in the PC, but I believe they will do just fine at that charge.

Hover your mouse over the last 3 pics for the description of what you're looking at. I believe I nailed it on the descriptions

I have a full schedule this weekend, if it 's not raining to much I'll get them blasted on Mon. Mon & Tues is supposed to be rain. So the next available day I'll git-er-done.

 

[dunno556]

As far as the BHN thing Venom. I believe I read on CB that adding hardness does improve the accuracy as well as allow some more speed.

If I remember correctly, WW or less starts to flex under the pressures of the higher, (rifle), charges and causes the loss of accuracy which then causes people to stop/back off a smidge and call it quits.

I do not recall how fast they got them to go though, or at what BHN.

I always worked with the philosophy that if I can hit a paper plate or better, it's working. Cuz a good portion of what you want to shoot/kill is bigger than that anyway.

Just my 5 cents, used to be 2 cents. But I adjusted it for inflation

 

[VenomBallistics]

what Im looking at is a split in my objectives.
Rifles giving it for all there worth makes for a good set of field worthy cast loads.
but then, I also have a classic lead launch platform, the 44 magnum revolver.
figuring for a 200 - 220 grain bullet at around 1500 - 1600 FPS or in the threreabouts could mean decent expansion at high production rates if PC will let us get away with speeds past 1000.
It just makes the standard paper puncher slug a good bit handier

 

[dunno556]

Finally made it to the range today.
The PC worked great. Both on the lower velocity, "seconds" and the max loaded boolits as well.
The barrel was cleaner than a whistle. Not even a trace of leading.

If only I had a chrono to be more specific.
I'm fairly confident that I exceeded 1100 fps going by the load data available.

Sadly the accuracy dropped off a bit with the hotter loads.
A bit of that was me to be sure.
But with a 3" barrel @ 25yds, not too bad.

Just happened that there was a guy there with an XD, 4.5" barrel.
By dumb luck he lives about 3 blocks from me AND he used to do powder coating for a living... What are the odds on that

Anyway, he was quite impressed with the whole idea and shot a few of each from his pistola. He shot high, but also did so with his factory ammo.

For round 2 I'll back down the AA#5 a bit to see if I can improve the accuracy of "my" gun while pushing it as hard as I can.

The 3.8g of Bullseye was quite accurate and I'll bump that one up a bit next time.

I was thinking / wondering...

The XD is +P rated.
I doubt that the load books I have take that into consideration?

So what I'm wondering is, how can I find out what that means as far as chamber pressure? Perhaps I could push them harder, instead of less, to see if accuracy could be improved that way?

The only thing I know about +P is that they are basically "hotter" rounds?

 

[VenomBallistics]

+P has to do with pressure more than velocity.
That's one thing that leads to confusion.
If loading 4227 in a 30-06 it's fairly easy to cook up a theoretical +P load that's easily surpassed using 4831.
+P ratings, in many cases, means that you have some extra margin to keep your gun together.
Unless we find a means of installing a strain gage to the chamber area, we only have our primers to go by. We might be gaining some space in the pressure budget, I haven't really paid too much attention to this yet.
I would load up a batch in increments around your most accurate load, look for improvement, and carve the best result into your loading bench.
Many powders work in the 9MM. It's better to seek power through powder selection.
Meanwhile, it sure is fun to see the difference powder coating makes.

As for the various coating powders, I think it is best explored in a rifle.
The worst powder so far has been the Harbor Freight matte black. It really looks the proper part on a bullet. And still works admirably at pistol levels.
The degrees of suck really don't show up till your playing with serious rifle cartridges.
So at this point. I see little need to get spendy with pistol bullet coatings.
The best so far, is not legal in all states. Teflon slip black seems to be the last word. If you are legal to use it.
I've been loading a lot of ammo for various tests over a chrono when I can get to that duty.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

The XD is +P rated.
I doubt that the load books I have take that into consideration?

If you haven't seen it, Accurate has new data for +P on their website. They show several loads for 9mm +P in lead, plated & jacketed. Looks like they shot for 39,000 psi max.

 

[dunno556]

Thanks Jesse I'll definitely check that out.

Yup on the rifle instead of pistol Venom.
I'm just using the 9mm because it's all I cast ATM.
More so just to work on the hot tumble method to see if I can make it work.

I "might" order a 7.62x39 mold soon as well as a .309 150g which I can use in my 06, (bolt), or my over under 30-30/20ga.

The later is pretty old, Savage 24V-A.
So I won't push that one too hard.
The 06, (mod. 700), is fairly old as well. I've owned it since new for almost 34 years now.
Less than 100 rounds down the pipe would be a safe bet. And would be a good candidate for testing some rifle boolits.

On my earlier mention of a new shooting buddy.
He mentioned to me that when he worked at the PC factory.
They would dump 50# bags of PC into a vat that had air supplied to the bottom of the vat.
With the proper amount of air pumped in, the PC would look like boiling water and they would dip the hot parts into the bubbling PC for an unspecified amount of time.
And then pull it out and it was left to cool and the job was done.

He said there wasn't any powder flying in the air, which I find hard to believe.
But if the air is regulated properly, he claims that that is the case.

So far I have not had much time to contemplate how to apply this method to boolits.
Or if it even could be? Perhaps someone else can put some brain cells into action on this idea?

The only thing I can come up with is gripping, (lightly), the tips with some sort of clamp.
That would allow, most importantly, the bottom, to be coated, as well as the sides.
Then set them, (prob not work for BT), on parchment to cool ?

It's making my head hurt ATM :banghead:
Whatcha think ?
Cuz I... dunno

 

[VenomBallistics]

Smells like you're looking at the Lee molds.
Get the 200 g rn too.
My 06 loves them for the heavy lifting.
The 150 flat point also performs extraordinarily well as a small game load.