A partnership for powdercoating.
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LiveLife
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VenomBallistics said:
http://youtu.be/8NotmeYCPpg
ROFL!
I was expecting the bare lead top to magically transform into a coated bullet but wasn't ready for the ending!
Thanks for the laugh!
Jesse Heywood
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OMG! They fixed Kenny!
VenomBallistics
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Cracked me stupid thinking it up
blarby
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Cute. And I lked it, don't get me wrong.
Still won't help reduce lead contamination by the end user though.
While not the holy grail, PC'ing has the potential to reduce lead contamination by the end user considerably.
While the creators of the bullets themselves will not enjoy this benefit, the end users (if not the creator) should enjoy significantly reduced lead exposure when loading and shooting these bullets.
Still won't help reduce lead contamination by the end user though.
While not the holy grail, PC'ing has the potential to reduce lead contamination by the end user considerably.
While the creators of the bullets themselves will not enjoy this benefit, the end users (if not the creator) should enjoy significantly reduced lead exposure when loading and shooting these bullets.
LiveLife
Member
When my lead level went from 8 to 12, my doctor got concerned and did all sorts of OSHA reporting to work, public health, etc. I not only had my family members tested but tested the reloading room, bench, brass processing/tumbling area, etc.
Looks like my main source of lead came from shooting at indoor ranges breathing in all those wonderful lead dust off the floor and now I wear 3M respirator with 2097 filter when handling unprocessed range brass and shoot mostly at outdoor ranges (I thought about wearing respirator at the indoor range but didn't want to alarm other shooters) - http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=SSSSSuH8gc7nZxtUnx_e5vTSevUqe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--
My interest in powder coating with blarby's help partly stemmed from reducing my exposure to lead, which I think we should all be aware of. When I suggested to blarby that I was planning to shoot lead .300 BLK loads, he was concerned about lead particles/vapor that may generate from the gas system and interest for testing powder coated .300 BLK bullets started while blarby was interested in testing powder coated bullets for his pistols/rifles.
I think powder coated lead bullets hold real promise for my retirement and even thought about ordering commercial bullets without sizing/lube but I am planning to cast bullets to a certain extent with properly ventilated workshop/casting area.
Looks like my main source of lead came from shooting at indoor ranges breathing in all those wonderful lead dust off the floor and now I wear 3M respirator with 2097 filter when handling unprocessed range brass and shoot mostly at outdoor ranges (I thought about wearing respirator at the indoor range but didn't want to alarm other shooters) - http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=SSSSSuH8gc7nZxtUnx_e5vTSevUqe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--
My interest in powder coating with blarby's help partly stemmed from reducing my exposure to lead, which I think we should all be aware of. When I suggested to blarby that I was planning to shoot lead .300 BLK loads, he was concerned about lead particles/vapor that may generate from the gas system and interest for testing powder coated .300 BLK bullets started while blarby was interested in testing powder coated bullets for his pistols/rifles.
I think powder coated lead bullets hold real promise for my retirement and even thought about ordering commercial bullets without sizing/lube but I am planning to cast bullets to a certain extent with properly ventilated workshop/casting area.
VenomBallistics
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Sure it does blarby.
the tip of the slug sees neither bore contact nor the high temperature high pressure combustion of the powder charge. Any paint will do here, if any is deemed necessary at all
The firing related exposure is mitigated by the pc layer whether we seal the tip or not.
Base and shank coverage are the highest priority.
Don't over complicate any one shot and done method.
This labor savings opens it up to more people.
I'd also have to say that pc'ed bullets have a great deal of lead exposure reduction.
My primary test rifle is a BOSS A bolt. The adjustable muzzle brake is a telltale indicator of airborne lead.
Straight cast lead results in a flat gray brake.
Pc'ed, it's just normal gsr.
Even if some remains, the clear fact that it was reduced to invisible levels is a strong indication of drastic reduction.
the tip of the slug sees neither bore contact nor the high temperature high pressure combustion of the powder charge. Any paint will do here, if any is deemed necessary at all
The firing related exposure is mitigated by the pc layer whether we seal the tip or not.
Base and shank coverage are the highest priority.
Don't over complicate any one shot and done method.
This labor savings opens it up to more people.
I'd also have to say that pc'ed bullets have a great deal of lead exposure reduction.
My primary test rifle is a BOSS A bolt. The adjustable muzzle brake is a telltale indicator of airborne lead.
Straight cast lead results in a flat gray brake.
Pc'ed, it's just normal gsr.
Even if some remains, the clear fact that it was reduced to invisible levels is a strong indication of drastic reduction.
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hey bds, just wanted to say that a 12 for your lead count is really not a huge deal.
I worked at a battery manufacturer for a number of years and my level was always 10 - 15 , we got tested regularly.
A respirator, at that time, was only required at a reading of 40.
I wouldn't be overly concerned, especially if your not planning on expanding the family
I worked at a battery manufacturer for a number of years and my level was always 10 - 15 , we got tested regularly.
A respirator, at that time, was only required at a reading of 40.
I wouldn't be overly concerned, especially if your not planning on expanding the family
LiveLife
Member
I thought the same but the thing was that after the first test of 8, I used extra precautions of wearing the 3M respirator when processing range brass and thought I would see a lower lead level on the next visit.
My doctor and I were both surprised when the level increased to 12, even with the precautions I took. She asked, "What did you do?" and when I told her I had done a lot of load development range tests at the indoor range and shot almost on a weekly basis, and on some weekends several times. She told me to stop shooting at the indoor range until the following lead test. Well, I told her since it was approaching summer heat, it was too hot for me to shoot at outdoor ranges also.
But I agreed to not shoot until the next lab test so I have been doing other things (yes, I am being careful and using gloves, respirator, etc.). So when blarby's interest in powder coating increased, I told him, "Well, funny thing happened at the doctor's office." I think we both agree powder coating has merits for reducing exposure to lead.
My doctor and I were both surprised when the level increased to 12, even with the precautions I took. She asked, "What did you do?" and when I told her I had done a lot of load development range tests at the indoor range and shot almost on a weekly basis, and on some weekends several times. She told me to stop shooting at the indoor range until the following lead test.
Well, I told her since it was approaching summer heat, it was too hot for me to shoot at outdoor ranges also.But I agreed to not shoot until the next lab test so I have been doing other things (yes, I am being careful and using gloves, respirator, etc.). So when blarby's interest in powder coating increased, I told him, "Well, funny thing happened at the doctor's office."
I think we both agree powder coating has merits for reducing exposure to lead.VenomBallistics
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I'm one to question the numbers.
They have been established on an average which represents "normal" rather than what really is hazardous.
That being what it is, watching the delta holds more meaning than the numbers themselves.
4 points represents a 50% spike in this case. And should have your attention, though you still remain in the low side of the normal range.
That 4 points means you're absorbing it faster than you can get rid of it.
As an aside, primers are made from lead styphnate. That will be the one fly in the ointment we can never strain out.
Since I have drifted off into primer composition, they also contain ground glass.
A few yards back, someone mentioned abrasion of powder coating. I'd think that the glass would skew the research results.
They have been established on an average which represents "normal" rather than what really is hazardous.
That being what it is, watching the delta holds more meaning than the numbers themselves.
4 points represents a 50% spike in this case. And should have your attention, though you still remain in the low side of the normal range.
That 4 points means you're absorbing it faster than you can get rid of it.
As an aside, primers are made from lead styphnate. That will be the one fly in the ointment we can never strain out.
Since I have drifted off into primer composition, they also contain ground glass.
A few yards back, someone mentioned abrasion of powder coating. I'd think that the glass would skew the research results.
Oh yeah, I get it bds. Just kinda sounded like you might be thinking it was a lot worse than it is. Didn't want ya freaking out about it
Definitely sounds like the indoor range is not a good thing
Perhaps their ventilation system isn't up to snuff?
I don't know anything about indoor ranges really. But I would think they would have some sort of filter system which if not maintained proper would cause levels to jump rather quickly.
Working off old memory cells, I believe most people have around a 4 - 6 level without being purposely exposed to lead.
I know I was tested before starting to work. And for some dumb reason I thought it would be zero for that first test. I don't recall, around 15 yrs ago. But it was a single digit.
I'm liking all this testing you guys are doing.
I'm looking at getting a 300 blk upper in the near future.
If I can cast boolits and put a decent push behind them without hogging up the barrel.
I'm all in
Definitely sounds like the indoor range is not a good thing
Perhaps their ventilation system isn't up to snuff?
I don't know anything about indoor ranges really. But I would think they would have some sort of filter system which if not maintained proper would cause levels to jump rather quickly.
Working off old memory cells, I believe most people have around a 4 - 6 level without being purposely exposed to lead.
I know I was tested before starting to work. And for some dumb reason I thought it would be zero for that first test. I don't recall, around 15 yrs ago. But it was a single digit.
I'm liking all this testing you guys are doing.
I'm looking at getting a 300 blk upper in the near future.
If I can cast boolits and put a decent push behind them without hogging up the barrel.
I'm all in
LiveLife
Member
According to this 4/25/14 CDC report on indoor ranges and elevated blood lead levels, there likely is a link and CDC recommends blood lead levels below 10 for adults and below 5 for children/pregnant women - http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6316a3.htm?s_cid=mm6316a3_w
Since there already exists a thread that discusses blood lead levels and lead exposure, I will close my comments regarding my lead issues so as to not detract from the primary focus of the thread which is the successful powder coating of lead bullets, even in high humidity environment. If you want to read more on the lead issue, here's the link to the discussion thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=307170
OK back to OP.
As to .300 BLK with 230 gr bullets blarby powder coated, I was finally able to pick up some Accurate 1680 I had been looking for at the last gun show and have H4198 and W296/H110 on hand. Since there are many identified subsonic loads successfully tested with 230 gr lead bullets with pistol length gas tube (which I have) that cycled and locked the bolt back after the last round, I am confident I will be able to develop a successful load for my 16" upper.
Since there are many reports of powder coated lead bullets shot beyond 2100 fps without leading, I do not anticipate any leading issues with my 230 gr loads which will be pushed around 1050 fps. If things go well, I have plans to test 150 gr bullets in the future.
Since there already exists a thread that discusses blood lead levels and lead exposure, I will close my comments regarding my lead issues so as to not detract from the primary focus of the thread which is the successful powder coating of lead bullets, even in high humidity environment. If you want to read more on the lead issue, here's the link to the discussion thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=307170
OK back to OP.
As to .300 BLK with 230 gr bullets blarby powder coated, I was finally able to pick up some Accurate 1680 I had been looking for at the last gun show and have H4198 and W296/H110 on hand. Since there are many identified subsonic loads successfully tested with 230 gr lead bullets with pistol length gas tube (which I have) that cycled and locked the bolt back after the last round, I am confident I will be able to develop a successful load for my 16" upper.
Since there are many reports of powder coated lead bullets shot beyond 2100 fps without leading, I do not anticipate any leading issues with my 230 gr loads which will be pushed around 1050 fps. If things go well, I have plans to test 150 gr bullets in the future.
VenomBallistics
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I'm looking at it for maximum performance.
I've tried since the early 90s to get a cast slug up to a confident field round.
I've wrapped them in Teflon plumbing tape, sprayed them with polyurethane finish, attempted electroplating, more lube formulations than any man could or should remember, even resorting to fiber wads stuck to the base of gas checks to strangle more out of it.
I never got much past an extra 50 fps for all the trouble.
PC didn't seem much different than anything I tried before.
From the first string of test loads out of a 30-06 , I was shocked to see that it delivered the goods.
My path is to see how much of these goods it has to deliver,and develop a few things around this delightful advance.
I've tried since the early 90s to get a cast slug up to a confident field round.
I've wrapped them in Teflon plumbing tape, sprayed them with polyurethane finish, attempted electroplating, more lube formulations than any man could or should remember, even resorting to fiber wads stuck to the base of gas checks to strangle more out of it.
I never got much past an extra 50 fps for all the trouble.
PC didn't seem much different than anything I tried before.
From the first string of test loads out of a 30-06 , I was shocked to see that it delivered the goods.
My path is to see how much of these goods it has to deliver,and develop a few things around this delightful advance.
VenomBallistics
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Been in the venom labs again, and I present to you a sweet finding in powder application.
Preheat the bullets prior to giving them the magic dust.
While not entirely necessary for the electrostatic methods I employ, this should be adaptable to tumble methods.
I populated the rack and baked them in the sleazy bake for 10 minutes at 350 degrees.
immediately after removal I transfered them to the coating station and sprayed with harbor freight yellow.
The powder was melting to the surface on contact which provided a head start on building of the coating.
The resulting single coat is rather thick, perhaps even overkill for my needs and methods.
Perhaps use of airgun bb's in a rotating metal container could be a viable option.
Preheat the bullets prior to giving them the magic dust.
While not entirely necessary for the electrostatic methods I employ, this should be adaptable to tumble methods.
I populated the rack and baked them in the sleazy bake for 10 minutes at 350 degrees.
immediately after removal I transfered them to the coating station and sprayed with harbor freight yellow.
The powder was melting to the surface on contact which provided a head start on building of the coating.
The resulting single coat is rather thick, perhaps even overkill for my needs and methods.
Perhaps use of airgun bb's in a rotating metal container could be a viable option.
VenomBallistics
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I return from the alter of man, (lathe) to bring you some cast bullet porn to feed your ballistic lust.
30 cal. 110g hp
Gonna try and pitch in with some 9mm.
I already have a tumbler, (wet).
So...
Went to HF and got a jug of red - $5.82
Went to Lowe's got an empty gallon paint can - $5.28
Also got a 10 pack of Blue Hawk nitrile gloves - $3.16
Wally World for a jug of the hard air soft BB's - $15.87
I have a brand new, 10 yr old toaster oven I can finally get out of the box, (priceless).
Total - $30.13
Also picked up a box of 7.62 x 39 winchester reloadables cuz they were there. No .22LR of course
I'm gonna make up some 115g CWWSWC and work them up to my 115g XTP loads which are pushed with 6.5g AA#5, which I'm nearly out of
I also have some Titegroup & Bullseye that I can use as well.
I'll be pushing them out of a Springfield XD
I read somewhere on CB about trying the air soft pellets instead of BB's so I thought I'd go that route.
I'll also be doing the preheat, then tumble method that Venom mentioned since no one has posted anytrhing for that method
Probably won't get started till the end of the week or beginning of next week as I have a few other things to get done right now.
I was noticing that it seems there is an accuracy loss with PC'd GC rifle bullets when reading different threads about PCing. Perhaps a custom mold with a flat base would be the way to go.
I have the knowledge to make a mold but no equipment to do so. And no spare $$$ to buy one right now.
I was "thinking", since it's a custom mold anyway.
Would it be better to under size it .001 to allow for the PC coat and then size after PC to the proper size to allow a nice coat of PC to remain ?
Also, don't really need the lube grooves. So that makes it easier to DIY a mold for those who have access to a lathe.
Any thoughts on the mold ?
I already have a tumbler, (wet).
So...
Went to HF and got a jug of red - $5.82
Went to Lowe's got an empty gallon paint can - $5.28
Also got a 10 pack of Blue Hawk nitrile gloves - $3.16
Wally World for a jug of the hard air soft BB's - $15.87
I have a brand new, 10 yr old toaster oven I can finally get out of the box, (priceless).
Total - $30.13
Also picked up a box of 7.62 x 39 winchester reloadables cuz they were there. No .22LR of course
I'm gonna make up some 115g CWWSWC and work them up to my 115g XTP loads which are pushed with 6.5g AA#5, which I'm nearly out of
I also have some Titegroup & Bullseye that I can use as well.
I'll be pushing them out of a Springfield XD
I read somewhere on CB about trying the air soft pellets instead of BB's so I thought I'd go that route.
I'll also be doing the preheat, then tumble method that Venom mentioned since no one has posted anytrhing for that method
Probably won't get started till the end of the week or beginning of next week as I have a few other things to get done right now.
I was noticing that it seems there is an accuracy loss with PC'd GC rifle bullets when reading different threads about PCing. Perhaps a custom mold with a flat base would be the way to go.
I have the knowledge to make a mold but no equipment to do so. And no spare $$$ to buy one right now.
I was "thinking", since it's a custom mold anyway.
Would it be better to under size it .001 to allow for the PC coat and then size after PC to the proper size to allow a nice coat of PC to remain ?
Also, don't really need the lube grooves. So that makes it easier to DIY a mold for those who have access to a lathe.
Any thoughts on the mold ?
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LiveLife
Member
I am planning to drill out the Lee bullet molds (like the 230 gr .300 BLK) to get flat based bullets.dunno556 said:
blarby powder coated lead bullets as they dropped from the molds then sized them without issues.
VenomBallistics
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Lots of thoughts on molds.
I punched the 110g at .308 leaving 001 for pc to 309 post sizing.
It seems to work out just fine.
Bear in mind that I run with electrostatic application, versus tumble.
One of my coats is worth two or three of yours.
What I really think will help everyone out is figuring out how to apply powder to a preheated batch of bullets.
It has the effect of melting the powder to the slug for a serious build in a single coat.
For me, that means cook the rack for 5 minutes, hook it up and spray.
tumble methods will need a way of keeping them from sticking together.
I punched the 110g at .308 leaving 001 for pc to 309 post sizing.
It seems to work out just fine.
Bear in mind that I run with electrostatic application, versus tumble.
One of my coats is worth two or three of yours.
What I really think will help everyone out is figuring out how to apply powder to a preheated batch of bullets.
It has the effect of melting the powder to the slug for a serious build in a single coat.
For me, that means cook the rack for 5 minutes, hook it up and spray.
tumble methods will need a way of keeping them from sticking together.
clearcut
Member
Heating them in the Cali sun for a bit seems to help with the tumble method,thicker coat.
CC
CC
I was wondering about them sticking together in the hot tumble method. I'm hoping the BB's will do the job. But I'm thinking the heavier pb will settle to the bottom.
Probably try a small/several baffles to get them to mix inside a paint can. Pretty sure the smooth sides will be like a spinning tire in mud
Maybe some glue sticks, sliced in half, screwed/glued to the sides? Just enough to give them a bump.
Maybe I can rig up a towel to rub the can as it spins for a little static charge as well.
One nice thing, I can always melt them down and try again.
Unless they're stuck together I'm thinking they'll be shootable though.
And no matter what. It's a very good excuse to make another trip to the range
Are you using any BB's or just the boolits and the PC powder when you tumble CC?
Probably try a small/several baffles to get them to mix inside a paint can. Pretty sure the smooth sides will be like a spinning tire in mud
Maybe some glue sticks, sliced in half, screwed/glued to the sides? Just enough to give them a bump.
Maybe I can rig up a towel to rub the can as it spins for a little static charge as well.
One nice thing, I can always melt them down and try again.
Unless they're stuck together I'm thinking they'll be shootable though.
And no matter what. It's a very good excuse to make another trip to the range
Are you using any BB's or just the boolits and the PC powder when you tumble CC?
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VenomBallistics
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I seem to recall something like a silicone baking sheet.
Sift some magic bullet dust out on that and give them a roll perhaps
Sift some magic bullet dust out on that and give them a roll perhaps
That's with cold rolling though correct?
Once I get rolling, no pun intended, I'll try them hot. Till they're not hot anymore.
With & without BB's just so we can say we tried it.
Hopefully I can at the very least have some PC'd by the end of the week.
Once I get rolling, no pun intended, I'll try them hot. Till they're not hot anymore.
With & without BB's just so we can say we tried it.
Hopefully I can at the very least have some PC'd by the end of the week.
VenomBallistics
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Should be quicker than that, unless you're coating a 38 up to 45.
I am kinda throwing out plausible ideas. There's no way I could try everything.
Silicone and RTV are kinda interesting materials. They can take 600 degrees without issue.
Stands to reason that it would handle 300 to 400 degree bullets being rolled on it.
If that works out, powder selection gets less limited for non es methods. Thus, it's worth a shot.
I think it was at all powder paints online that I tripped across some Teflon powder.
I know I can use it, just a, matter of making it useful for everyone.
I am kinda throwing out plausible ideas. There's no way I could try everything.
Silicone and RTV are kinda interesting materials. They can take 600 degrees without issue.
Stands to reason that it would handle 300 to 400 degree bullets being rolled on it.
If that works out, powder selection gets less limited for non es methods. Thus, it's worth a shot.
I think it was at all powder paints online that I tripped across some Teflon powder.
I know I can use it, just a, matter of making it useful for everyone.
VenomBallistics
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Annoying lab note No. 48 ....
wetting bullets prior to tumble coating does not work.
if it crossed your mind .. Ill save ya the time.
Annoying thought of the day No.23 ...
just what are we going to do with our traditional lubes?
wetting bullets prior to tumble coating does not work.
if it crossed your mind .. Ill save ya the time.
Annoying thought of the day No.23 ...
just what are we going to do with our traditional lubes?
Get anywhere on that yet?
Had a little difficulty with the 115g mold, (6 cavity). But I finally dropped about a 100 or so.
Separated them by weight as well. Some dropped 7.1gr, (109.57g), some 7.2gr, (111.11g). Don't have a scale that will do grains yet. Powder scale stops at 109g
The weight is after sizing. NO lube was used.
Still working on other things atm so I have not put the rumble strips in the paint can yet.
So far this is how I'm going to proceed, unless someone can throw in another variable for me to try.
I'll run half of each of the two different weight bullets, (7.1gr/7.2gr), meaning roughly, 4 batches of 25 boolits.
Two will have a short tumble, time to be determined visually as it's being done, after preheating.
The second two, I'll tumble till the PC is dry. As in won't come off by touching it.
Unless the first batch is a dismal failure. No point repeating it.
Basically, I want to see if I can do a set and forget tumble with method #2.
Turn it on and walk away/set a timer.
As long as they have a decent coat on them and they don't come out in a fused lump. I'll put a check in the win column.
I haven't read anything about that so far. If anyone else has can I get a short synopsis or better yet a link ?
I was referring to when I can actually get around to PCing them. Not how long it would take to PC them.
Are you saying to use RTV to make the speed bumps inside the can or to kinda coat the inside of the can with it to aid in the tumbling?
Also, does anyone know if the PC will stick to rubber or RTV or silicone.
The wet tumbler has a nice rubber coating in it and has a hex shape so no speed bumps would be needed. Just don't want to ruin the barrel. Bout a buck 50 to replace that.
I can get a smaller barrel with a 3lb capacity for about $40.
Have to check the dimensions on that though. Not sure it will fit on my existing unit. Might be too small. Of course that just makes it more of a challenge
::EDIT::
We can always sell it to the nay sayers. There will always be some. Even in the face of success
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