a pistol as a gift

[Im283]

I was reading another thread and "straw purchase" was mentioned. It made me wonder about some things.

Is it possible for a spouse to buy a hand gun or long gun and give it to the other as a gift? What about buying a weapon for an adult child?
Someday I would like to purchase my grandsons first gun, would that be legal?

 

[SIOP]

Perfectly legal as long as you pay for it and you fill out the 4473, then gift them the gun, provided there are no restrictions in your state that prevent it.

Also, the giver and the recipient must be residents of the same state, or you'll have to use an FFL to be legal.

 

[universal]

SIOP is right on. At least that is what the law says around here. There is also another way of doing it. My brother in law got me a shotgun last year while he was in Iraq. He called in the order to the local gunshop (here at home) and paid for everything. Then he emailed me and told me to go down there and pick up my birthday present. I filled out all the paperwork in my name and walked out with a brand new Remington 870, a cleaning kit and two boxes of ammo without paying a dime. That was a nice birthday.

 

[glockman19]

What a nice gift. I wish someone would buy me my next gun.

I actually was in teh gun shop buying a gun and a couple were picking up their's. She bought it for him. What a lucky guy.

 

[Lupinus]

so long as it is actually your money paying for it and you are filling otu the form it is perfectly legal. A straw purchase is one person buying the gun for someone who can not legally do so with that persons money.

As for transfering it in the majority of states perfectly legal to just stick a bow on it give a pat on the back and say have fun. If you are in a local that mandats it or the person is across state lines you will need to transfer through an FFL, no big deal just going to the gunshop paying the fee and the other person needs to fill out the 4473.

 

[jr81452]

or you could just buy it shoot it once and then "decide" you don't like it and give it away. when you buy a gun you are not required to keep it for any specific lenght of time. so long as the person you are giving it to is legally able to buy one then you have not broken any laws. thats what my lawyer says anyway.

 

[PennsyPlinker]

I just went through all this for our daughter who is turning 21 and lives in FL (we are in PA). The short version is, I took her shooting with my own, discussed the options with the helpful man at the gun store, and then let her make up her mind. She decided she wanted a shrouded hammer .38 special just like Daddy's, and plunked down her money.

Actually, she plunked down my money. But, it came out of her purse and from her hand, so there was no issue of straw purchasing with which to contend. I could have purchased it here in PA and transferred it to her in FL, but that would have added almost $100 to the price figuring in transfer fees for two separate FFL dealers, plus shipping.

 

[Zundfolge]

A straw purchase is one person buying the gun for someone who can not legally do so with that persons money.

Thats not quite right. Its still a straw purchase if you buy a gun for someone else, using their money even if they are not a "prohibited person" and they could legally purchase the gun on their own.

In essence what makes a "Straw Purchase" a crime is that you must lie on a government form.

The 4473 asks "Are you the actual purchaser of this firearm?" and any answer other then "Yes" will prevent the purchase from taking place.

So as long as you can honestly answer "Yes" to that question you're fine (and if you're buying it as a gift than you are indeed the actual purchaser of the firearm).

 

[SIOP]

Actually, she plunked down my money. But, it came out of her purse and from her hand, so there was no issue of straw purchasing with which to contend.

You can color that any way you want to, but technically it was a straw purchase and when your daughter signed the 4473 attesting that she was the purchaser of the gun, she committed a felony.

Will anyone care? Probably not. But you probably knew better. She didn't.

 

[McKnife]

I'm still confused by Straw Purchases.

Scenario: Say you buy weapons with the intent to sell them for profit. For instance, you buy a shotgun for $300 because you can sell it to a friend for $330 in a face-to-face sale. You make a profit.

I would be the actual purchaser and owner until it's sold to the friend. (No felonies on either side).

I dont think this is a problem... but this is certainly what Brady's want to prohibit.

 

[McKnife]

Also, what if you don't know if the receiver of the gift/sale is a felon or not?

I've always protected myself by having them sign a waiver saying they are not a felon and can legally own a firearm. Buyers are wary but usually give in.

 

[PennsyPlinker]

You can color that any way you want to, but technically it was a straw purchase and when your daughter signed the 4473 attesting that she was the purchaser of the gun, she committed a felony.

Will anyone care? Probably not. But you probably knew better. She didn't.

I figured someone would arrive to shake their sanctimonious finger at me. No sir, it was not, is not, will not be, a straw purchase. She is buying the gun. She is the one making the transaction for HERSELF. I gave her the money to buy HER gun for HER use and ownership. SHE IS NOT BUYING IT FOR ME, SHE IS BUYING IT FOR HERSELF!!! Is that clear enough for you Mr. SIOP? Maybe you would like to haul my mother-in-law off to jail since I spend the money she gives me for my birthday on guns. How about that Mr. SIOP?

I discussed this with the people at several gunshops in two states, people with long histories of doing things according to the law. I even asked for advice here, and had to wade through a whole bunch of suggestions. I am sure glad you didn't pop up for one of those threads. We discussed all the various ways to get a gun into HER hands legally and with the least amount of fuss and cost. We walked in and I said, I want to give my daughter a gun for her birthday. What is the best way to do that? I am sure glad you weren't there Mr. SIOP. There is enough crap to wade through without self righteous busybodies surfacing to complicate the matter.

We went though every scenario:

1) I buy the gun and give it to her. Well that doesn't work because we live in different states now, both of which require a transfer with FFLs involved on both ends.

2) I buy the gun and sell it to her. See the above.

3) She buys the gun and takes it home with her. Problem solved. She bought it, she paid for it, she keeps it. Is that clear enough for you to understand? To accuse me of making a straw purchase or inciting her to commit a felony is as ludicrous as saying that her employer is guilty of the same thing because she spent her own paycheck on the #$%^% thing! Whaddaya think about that Mr. SIOP? Maybe we should arrest her employer since he gave her money, and maybe she spent it on a gun.

You know what Mr. SIOP? I gave her money for groceries. Yeah, that's it, groceries. Imagine my surprise when after she bought the groceries, she had just enough in her monthly budget to go out and get herself a gun!

Oh yeah, while at the gunshop we also both produced enough ID to prove we are who we say we are, and that the person laying down the money is the one buying the gun. What are you? Who are you? What kind of job do you have where you have the time to worry about stuff like this? Are you a lawyer perhaps? Mall Ninja? Politician? Why do people like you insist on straining at the minutiae of this stuff? I have to tell you Mr. SIOP, it is people like you who make this place a lot less fun and informative sometimes.

 

[TX1911fan]

Plinker, you are correct. Maybe SIOP has the facts wrong, because I don't see how anyone could think your daughter made a straw purchase. SHE is keeping the gun. If you paid for it, she filled out the 4473, and then YOU ended up with the gun, that could possibly be a straw purchase, but the way you did it definitely can't be.

By the way, I just did this myself. I have a very good friend who thought it would be nice to buy a gun for me, so he did. Ordered it online and had it sent to the FFL we both use. He had me drive over with him, and then told me the gun was for me. I filled out the 4473, because I was the purchaser of the gun, he just paid the money. It is in my possession, I own it.

McKnife, I'm not positive, but I think if you are INTENDING to sell the gun for profit, then you have to have a dealers license. If you intend on keeping the gun, then at some point decide to sell it, and happen to make a profit, then no problem, assuming you don't do it too often, since the BATFE will consider you a dealer then, unless you can convince them otherwise. I'd like to hear the opinion of others on this subject though.

 

[SIOP]

She bought it, she paid for it, she keeps it. Is that clear enough for you to understand? To accuse me of making a straw purchase or inciting her to commit a felony is as ludicrous as saying that her employer is guilty of the same thing because she spent her own paycheck on the #$%^% thing! Whaddaya think about that Mr. SIOP?

What do I think? I think that in one breath you said YOU paid for it, and in the next said SHE paid for it. Which is it?

Oh yeah, while at the gunshop we also both produced enough ID to prove we are who we say we are, and that the person laying down the money is the one buying the gun.

Why would YOU have to pony up any ID at all? And we've already established that by your own admission YOU are the actual purchaser.

Do I agree with the gun laws? No. Do I obey them to say out of jail? Yes.

By the way, you don't have to call me mister, but I can understand why you do.

 

[universal]

Unless I missed something, I do not see how anything PennsyPlinker did would constitute a straw purchase. Who pays for the weapon has nothing to do with it. If she signed the papers and the gun was for her, it does not matter who actually paid the bill. PennsyPlinker could have paid with his credit card and it would have made no difference. If Pennsylvania law is anything like Nebraska law (that is where you are from SIOP, correct?), PennsyPlinker and his daughter could transfer ownership of the handgun without any permits etc. anyway. He could have paid for it, signed all the paperwork and turned around and handed it to her saying "Here, this is for you."

Section 69-2403
Sale, lease, rental, and transfer; certificate required; exceptions.

Except as provided in section 69-2409, a person shall not purchase, lease, rent, or receive transfer of a handgun until he or she has obtained a certificate in accordance with section 69-2404. Except as provided in section 69-2409, a person shall not sell, lease, rent, or transfer a handgun to a person who has not obtained a certificate. The certificate shall not be required if:
(1) The person acquiring the handgun is a licensed firearms dealer under federal law;

(2) The handgun is an antique handgun;

(3) The person acquiring the handgun is authorized to do so on behalf of a law enforcement agency;

(4) The transfer is a temporary transfer of a handgun and the transferee remains (a) in the line of sight of the transferor or (b) within the premises of an established shooting facility; or

(5) The transfer is between a person and his or her spouse, sibling, parent, child, aunt, uncle, niece, nephew, or grandparent.


Source:

Laws 1991, LB 355, § 2




~Reissue Revised Statutes of Nebraska

A straw purchase would be if I purchased a Glock with the law enforcement discount and then sold or gave it to someone who was not law enforcement. It would also be if I purchased a gun and gave or sold it to someone who otherwise could not buy one themselves due to legal reasons.

 

[Zundfolge]

universal, we're talking about federal law, not Nebraska law.

A straw purchase would be if I purchased a Glock with the law enforcement discount and then sold or gave it to someone who was not law enforcement.

Not a straw purchase unless you were buying it FOR someone else ... the ATF doesn't care about LEO discounts. If you sell it or give it as a gift thats not a Straw Purchase.

It would also be if I purchased a gun and gave or sold it to someone who otherwise could not buy one themselves due to legal reasons.

Nope, still not a Straw Purchase (but actually a worse crime of selling a firearm to a prohibited person) unless they gave you the money and you walked to the shop and pretended to buy it for yourself.

Actually, she plunked down my money. But, it came out of her purse and from her hand, so there was no issue of straw purchasing with which to contend.

You can color that any way you want to, but technically it was a straw purchase and when your daughter signed the 4473 attesting that she was the purchaser of the gun, she committed a felony.

Nope, no felony and no "coloring" to get there either.

She bought the gun with her money ... money that was given to her as a gift, but still her money. Period. She filled out the paperwork answering the question "Are you the actual purchaser of this firearm?" with an honest "Yes".

Now had she given the gun back to her dad, yes it would be a Straw Purchase.

 

[universal]

Are you saying there is a Federal legal term called "Straw Purchase?" I did not know that.

I guess I am not as informed as I should be. Anyway, and it seems we agree, neither PennsyPlinker nor his daughter did anything wrong.

 

[universal]

Zundfolge,

I did some quick reading and the federal law in question is the Gun Control Act of 1968, right? My impression always was that the term "Straw Purchase", was just that, a term. I don't actually see it anywhere as a legal definition but I now understand the confusion. Sorry about mucking up the debate.

Last but not least, I still do not think anyone was quilty of anything based on either state or federal law.

 

[SIOP]

My impression always was that the term "Straw Purchase", was just that, a term. I don't actually see it anywhere as a legal definition but I now understand the confusion. Sorry about mucking up the debate

.

Straw purchases are covered in detail on ATF's web site. But you have to do some digging to find it. And they do, in fact, use the term "Straw Purchase".

It's there you will find that it is indeed the money trail that defines a straw purchase, and not just who ends up with the gun or signs the paperwork.

 

[Zundfolge]

Last but not least, I still do not think anyone was quilty of anything based on either state or federal law.

Oh I agree.


The ATF has a wonderful little cartoon that explains a Straw Purchase pretty well:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/theater/toon4.html

(several others here http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/ )

 

[universal]

Even though I feel like an idiot for having run my mouth without doing enough research first, I sure did learn a few things today.

Again, sorry everyone for sticking my nose in the debate without checking my facts first.

I am going to bow out at this point.

 

[Zundfolge]

No reason to feel bad ... the byzantine nature of federal firearms law makes it real difficult to know and comply with the law (note the quote in my sig).

 

[PennsyPlinker]

What do I think? I think that in one breath you said YOU paid for it, and in the next said SHE paid for it. Which is it?


Quote:
Oh yeah, while at the gunshop we also both produced enough ID to prove we are who we say we are, and that the person laying down the money is the one buying the gun.
Why would YOU have to pony up any ID at all? And we've already established that by your own admission YOU are the actual purchaser.

Do I agree with the gun laws? No. Do I obey them to say out of jail? Yes.

By the way, you don't have to call me mister, but I can understand why you do.

Try reading it again SIOP. I never said I paid for it. I used the phrase, "she plunked down my money", meaning, very specifically, the money I gave her as a birthday present. Again I will ask, what are you? English teacher perhaps? Talmudic scholar? Is it that you don't care for my vernacular or just can't seem to parse it fully?

And as far as my behavior at the gunshop, it really is none of your business whatsoever, but since I am such a swell guy, I added that in by way of explaining that I did everything possible to ensure that the people at the shop knew that there was nothing illegal about our intentions or actions. But I don't think this is getting through to you. What I do think is that you stepped on your weenie and are too proud to admit that you made a mistake.

I made it very clear from the very beginning that this was a gift from me to my daughter, and we discussed that fully with the very friendly man at the gunshop. So don't fret yourself SIOP, no rules or laws were broken or even bent, even if you do have trouble with my explanation.

By the way, "we" have established absolutely nothing. You have a vision in your head that does not correspond with reality. I am normally an easygoing kind of a guy, but I don't take it kindly when some anonymous person accuses me of felonious behavior when that person does not have the facts at hand, or even what amounts to a reasonable understanding of the law.

It's there you will find that it is indeed the money trail that defines a straw purchase, and not just who ends up with the gun or signs the paperwork.

Let's see now. Are you saying that it doesn't matter who signs for the gun or who ends up with it, it is who pays for it that matters? So if a person signs the papers saying it is their gun, that doesn't matter. She put down her money, regardless of where it came from, signed her name, and is taking her gun home? I guess not even that will satisfy you, huh? :banghead:

 

[Aguila Blanca]

You can color that any way you want to, but technically it was a straw purchase and when your daughter signed the 4473 attesting that she was the purchaser of the gun, she committed a felony.

No doubt many over-zealous BATFE agents would agree with you, but the fact is, PennsyPlinker gave his daughter a chunk of cash for her birthday and told her to spend it as she wished. She wished to spend it on purchasing a firearm. As he said ... the money came out of her purse. The firearms laws do not decree how the "actual purchaser" of a firearm may or may not come into possession of the money used to effect said purchase.

 

[loki.fish]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIOP
You can color that any way you want to, but technically it was a straw purchase and when your daughter signed the 4473 attesting that she was the purchaser of the gun, she committed a felony.

No doubt many over-zealous BATFE agents would agree with you, but the fact is, PennsyPlinker gave his daughter a chunk of cash for her birthday and told her to spend it as she wished. She wished to spend it on purchasing a firearm. As he said ... the money came out of her purse. The firearms laws do not decree how the "actual purchaser" of a firearm may or may not come into possession of the money used to effect said purchase.

And if they could get by with that, then they'd be going after all the businesses out there that have employees using the money the company gave them for doing work to buy firearms with. Then the economy would crash cuz there'd be no businesses because the ATF closed them all down for straw purchases. You get my point?