Accidental vs. Negligent

[Bliggida]

Discharges (hit tha' deck!)

Since we're on the subject of what/how we refer to something as a gun community. How do you feel about using Accidental Discharge (AD) vs. a Negligent Discharge (ND)?

I understand that an AD will most likely always be used since I believe it was coined first. But, in terms of safety and firearm rules, (me, carrying a GLOCK) there is no such thing as an accidental discharge. Gun only goes off if you pull the trigger, making it and you negligent.

How do you define a firing an un-intended round off?

"There's no such thing as an accidental discharge"

 

[SheepNutz]

I'm with you, really no such thing as an accidental discharge.

 

[Cosmoline]

Negligence is a level of culpability based on an objective standard. A discharge could also be reckless or intentional. If the discharge was not intentional, reckless or negligent, then it was not culpable. This is what people usually mean when they say "accidental."

Such truly non-culpable discharges do indeed take place, but they're rare. For example, A is carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. A's house catches fire and A is engulfed in flames. A round cooks of from the 1911, injuring B who is rescuing A. In that scenario A did not even touch the weapon, and it would be difficult to build a case against him. He did nothing negligent with the pistol.

If the firearm goes off because of a genuine mechanical failure or defect it would also be possible to find the discharge non-culpable. The old Nambu in the hands of someone who doesn't know about its major drawback, for example.

 

[distra]

Accidental discharge is when the firearm itself fails, i.e. loaded gun dropped firing pin block doesn't work and bang! At least that's how I see, all the rest are negligent discharges caused by the operator pulling the trigger. Some would call re-holstering snags accidental, that's a gray area for me...

 

[John Parker]

Accidental is when it happens too fast...negligent is when you don't pull out.

 

[jigglyjames29]

I don't see how one can not use them interchangeably.
definition of accident: an unfortunate mishap.
A Negligent discharge is never fortunate. Well, I suppose if the gun went off unintentionally but hit a bad guy or something crazy like that.

 

[Bliggida]

I suppose I should have clarified, to be more direct. That was my fault.

I meant solely in regards to a person pulling the trigger.
as I agree a mechanical failure is not subject to you being negligent.
Nor, slam-banging it into a wall or other solid object.

Intentionally, knowingly, recklessly, or negligently. Mmmm, report words I live for.

 

[Harpo]

Accidental, meaning "not intentional".

"Negligent" is just a finger-wagging way for anti's to say "See, you shouldn't have guns!"

Really, what's next? Having a traffic negligent?

 

[Mad Chemist]

AD implies mechanical failure or true accident. If you touch off a round by mistake by actuating the trigger then it's a ND.

 

[BP44]

Im with Harpo on this, coining a stronger term that shows a "Hey Im an idiot" mindset is just hurtfull to our cause.

accidents happen just like S#$% happens.

should we change it to negligent happens because I have seen the term in a gun rag.

On a further note I would be interested to find out who coined the term ND. I would guess"and it's just a guess" it came from an anti gun lawyer and spread to the rest of the sheep.

 

[Balog]

AD's are: mechanical failure of the weapon, falling on/dropping a non-drop safe weapon, and grabbing at a falling weapon. Basically, anything not resulting from a 4 rules violation.

ND's are anything else, all the many ways people are stupid and careless with their guns.

I'm not sure how to classify someone trying to put a SA auto into condition 2.

 

[Deus Machina]

+1

Accidental--failure, dropping a non drop-safe gun, a twig tucking into the trigger guard while you're hunting.

Negligent--not keeping your booger hook off the bang switch.

 

[Magic_Man]

I agree w/distra

 

[TexasBill]

"Negligent" implies that a deliberate action or inaction on the part of the operator caused the discharge (i.e., pulled the trigger, failed to engage a safety, didn't check to see if gun was loaded, etc.). Accidental implies the discharge occurred through mischance, a mechanical failure or other circumstance outside the control of the operator.

There's a huge difference in the two terms; negligence can be actionable in civil court or, in some cases, result in criminal charges. A true accident generally absolves the operator of criminal liability and civil liability other than perhaps actual damages caused by the discharge.

 

[moooose102]

pretty much in my book, if you flip the happy switch, it is negligent, if you did not, it is accidental.

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

why is when a gun discharges without intention, it's called negligent, but when there's a car wreck, it's called an accident? either way it's due to someone's careless mistake.

technically they're both negligent, but most people use the terms negligent and accident interchangeably. even though not correct, seems like only people on these forums are anal about it...

 

[mcdonl]

This is a story that is going on right now, in my town.

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=308699&ac=PHnws

In a recorded interview with detectives, Lavallee-Davidson said Wilson asked him to engage in a type of Russian roulette, by holding the revolver to his head and pulling the trigger. Lavallee-Davidson claimed that he checked the gun, saw it was unloaded, then left the basement to use the bathroom.

When he returned, he picked up the gun.

"I picked it up and pointed it at his head and it clicked and he said something like, do it again. I did, and it went off," Lavallee-Davidson told detectives. "As soon as it went off, I was just totally freaked out."

In this particular story, the defendant is saying that he checked that the gun was unloaded, went to the bathroom, came back and pointed the gun at his friend. Pulled the trigger once, and his friend said do it again... he did... and bang... one less friend.

Now, no less then 3 of the 4 golden rules were broken here, and I bet that #4 was also not given much though. But my question is, if the S&W .44 Revolver was cycled twice by pulling the trigger, how could you NOT know there was a round in the chamber?

And, is this an accident, negligence or murder?

 

[Six]

I wish we could just use "Inadvertent discharge" to indicate a bang when we weren't expecting one so we wouldn't have to derail every AD/ND thread with a discussion on proper terminology.

 

[kanook]

The firearm went off by accident when the owner was negligent and dropped it.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

And, is this an accident, negligence or murder?

Assuming the story you conveyed was accurate, it was an accident, but not an accidental discharge. The trigger was being intentionally pulled. That makes it a negligent discharge. Was it murder? Not according to the story, but it was homicide

 

[sfc_mark]

Referring to it as "negligent" forces us to face the cause of the event and hopefully learn from it. Some (by no means all) can call it an accident and go about their merry way.

This isn't a blame game or finger wagging, and it's not exclusive to the shooting community. The Motorcycle Safety Foundation doesn't recognize "accidents." They're crashes and they have causes. If you force yourself to analyze the event and face the cause, no matter how uncomfortable, you can better learn from it.

The Army stopped referring to them as ADs and went to the term Negligent Discharge exclusively a few years ago. Even if no one is hurt, it's not really no harm - no foul.

 

[mcdonl]

Assuming the story you conveyed was accurate, it was an accident, but not an accidental discharge. The trigger was being intentionally pulled. That makes it a negligent discharge. Was it murder? Not according to the story, but it was homicide

It is as accurate as the paper that published the story. I just cannot believe that people still "play with guns"... clearly the drugs must have affected their judgment.

 

[Bubbles]

I've only seen one truly "accidental" discharge, and that was with a Remington rifle with a really awful trigger job; disengaging the safety caused the rifle to fire. Fortunately when it happened the owner was obeying the four rules so no one got hurt.

 

[7X57chilmau]

The vast majority of "unintended" discharges are the result of negligence. That doesn't imply that accidental discharges don't occur, but they are universally the result of a mechanical failure in the firearm. If the firearm doesn't require repair, the discharge was negligent. Damned near every time.

J

 

[Fremmer]

Unintentional will work just fine, and even satisfy the boston legal bunch.

Maybe not though, because remember, FAULT is more important than anything. Your fault, his fault, her fault, nothing other than FAULT matters.