Another slant on the AK/AR argument.

[rizbunk77]

Most of the time in the AK vs. AR argument someone says and most agree that the quality of manufacture favors the AR or M16 while AK's are sloppy or not high quality. I've got a couple head scratchers though....
If American manufacture is higher quality why then are the worst AK mags available usually American ones? If the commies are making cheap junk, how can you explain pro-mag or tapco? Want to jam an AK, put an American mag in it!
Another point... AK's detractors are fond of saying that AK's specs vary alot because so many countries make them and they don't have any quality control. If this is the case how come I can pick up damn near any mag at a pawn shop and put it in damn near any AK and it will run without a hickup with the cheapest ammo available. And why when I did the same thing with an American mag for my Bushmaster it wouldn't function! Now don't get me wrong I like the good old USA but the fact is I am not sure you can look down on the AK when it comes to quality and compatibility.
Think about this too... when it comes to ARs within this country alone we have (non milspec) variations in:
Barrel steel
Extractor parts
Receiver alloy
mag followers
shot peened bolts
staked gas keys
pin sizes
magnetic particle testing of barrel and bcg
Wonder how many variations of these things you have on an AK?
1. (Mil-spec) Unless it was assembled (you guessed it) in America. i.e. non chromed barrels, american receivers not properly bent, or heat treated etc.

 

[Avenger29]

If American manufacture is higher quality why then are the worst AK mags available usually American ones? If the commies are making cheap junk, how can you explain pro-mag or tapco? Want to jam an AK, put an American mag in it!
Another point...

Notice that those are crappy brands. Promag, national magazine, USA magazine, triple K magazine, etc. . A quality US maker has not stepped up to make AK mags, probably because the need is simply not there at this time.

Also, don't forget a lot of crappy US made magazines were churned out before the AWB of 94...

Now, if somebody like Magpul, Bravo Company, MecGar, etc stepped up to make an AK magazine, they'd get it right. But there is no need for them to, with the wide availability of surplus magazines, both metal and poly that work well.

 

[rizbunk77]

I would think the commies would be making the cheapest ones they can no? Oh thats right they do, but with one hitch "without sacrificing function." Alright hypothetically if you could exclude every American ak mag in the country right now, and go out and test every foreign mag in a test AK and every available AR mag in a test AR which would have the most issues? The AR would. and those mags are American that aren't working. So why do we automatically assume that quality is higher with the AR platform?

 

[Avenger29]

You sure don't want me to do that hypothetical testing. I had two milsurp AK mags, both in good condition and in the importer's packaging that turned out to be completely worthless when I gifted them to a friend.

 

[[Pb]]

AKs can run with crappy out of spec parts because they fit together like a rattletrap and are designed for durability, not precision. If you wan't a truly accurate AK, it's going to need quality, properly machined parts that fit together with minimal tolerances. Even though almost all AK parts and mags will work reliably together, they aren't capable of shooting tight groups. This is because the AK is built with a certain amount of slop, to insure reliability even when parts aren't top notch.

 

[wally]

A quality US maker has not stepped up to make AK mags

I can't think of a quality US mag maker. Mec-Gar is about only non-factory mags you can generally count on and they are Italian.

The AR is the exception with ex & current GI contract holders turning out generally passable product, and niche makers like MagPul making "premium" offerings.

--wally.

 

[rizbunk77]

Ever wonder why they don't have different color followers in AK mags?

 

[rizbunk77]

Not one good response to my first post. Missing the point. Given that there are so many non milspec variations in the AR platform and none in the AK platform (that aren't American) why do we assume the AR is higher quality?

 

[Z-Michigan]

I can't think of a quality US mag maker.

Are you only talking about AK replacement mags? Because for mags in general I can list a number of quality US manufacturers that don't make guns:
D&H
NHMTG
Metalform
Checkmate Industries
Magpul
Tango Down
Lancer Systems
Cammenga
Fusil USA

I'm sure I could add to that list with some more time.

 

[545days]

Variances in the AK platform:
barrell chrome lined.. or not (Yugoslavia)
Receiver sheet metal... or machined
Barrel trunnion diameters differ between some manufacturers
folding stocks and rear trunnions... vary
5.56 magazines... usually not interchangable since there is no standard they are designed to.
Sagia mags vs milspec mags
barrel steels and reciever steel vary all over the map based on the country of manufacture.
Trigger designs (for semi-autos that can be legally imported) vary all over the map, ever hear of trigger slap?
You won't find a shot peened bolt or mag particle tested barrell on an AK - they simply don't use that level of QA/QC.


The AR however has a single full set of military specifications. Any manufacturer can use them to make parts that drop in. There are some variations based on cost savings or "improvements". However, all of the variations (except Colt's pin diameter) do not impact interchangability of parts.

I have no dog in this fight, as I own both an AR and AK. Both have their place, however, I just think it is silly to argue that the AK is higher quallity.

 

[rizbunk77]

ok I apologize, and take it back the first couple of responses were valid.

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

[pb] got it right. the AK is not a precision system. They're made to easily put holes at about 200 meters (modern battle field ranges).

 

[rizbunk77]

The AK platform adheres to a much more uniform set of specs even across the many countries than AR's do within only one country of manufacture. This is why you would have more confidence that you could pick up an AK rifle in one store, a surplus mag and ammo in another, and everything would work fine probly shooting 2-3 moa for as many mag changes as I wanted.
Now if I go pick up a mismatched upper and lower AR (as is common) and some 15 dollar 20 round mags out of the bargain bin would you be so confident that you could rattle off the same number of rounds without a problem? You would probly be at 1.5-2 moa with the AR due to the design of the gun, but not the build quality. When the AR jams I usually hear: its the damn mag, or this damn cheap ammo. Where's the bad mags and ammo for the AK? I am talking about the real ak's not the Wasr-3 or anything bastardized to a NATO caliber.
The russians expect to get 10,000 rounds out of each AK before it's retired. For example every russian AK I have received came with a QC sheet with group size recorded to prove the rifle ready. Did you know in the russian military the individual soldier is not even allowed to adjust the sights? They are sighted in by the armorers to be sure that someone who knows what they are doing zeros the rifle and then its not messed with at all. Does this sound like a country that doesn't care about how the rifle is set up?

 

[rizbunk77]

I gotta address the AK variances posted previously.
Non chromed lined AKs are build projects done in the USA
All modern AK's are stamped and not milled. The thickness of the receiver only varies among the different rifle types but not within rifles of one type.
Who cares what type of folding stock it has (has a stock ever jammed a rifle)
You got me on the 556 mags.
Do the trunions ever cause a problem? Never heard of it if they have.
Is the fact that the AR is a precision instrument the reason that it jams if it doesn't have "m4" feed ramps? Is the fact that it is a precision rifle the reason it fails to extract because it has a blue extractor spring assembly instead of a black one"?

 

[rizbunk77]

So let me get this straight, the lower quality and sloppier a rifle is the more reliable it is?
I just heard of a bunch of Lancaster (American) AK74's jamming right out of the box because of improper receivers made in the USA. Now Arsenal just brought in a bunch of Russian AK74s that never jam at all. Seeing my point folks? It ain't the design of the rifle making the difference. I am not sure the AR is any damn bit better than it was when it was killing soldiers in Vietnam who were armed with "the worlds newest single shot." The one in Jessica Lynch's hands was so jammed her CO couldn't help her. At least with an AK the damn thing will go bang and there's a reason for that although I am not sure how many folks are open minded enough to see it.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Non chromed lined AKs are build projects done in the USA

One big exception: Yugos. Original Yugoslavian AKs (M70 and M72) made in Yugoslavia for the Yugoslavian military generally had non-chrome-lined barrels. The reason I've read, which I'll admit sounds fishy, was that Yugoslavia didn't have domestic resources of chromium and didn't feel like importing it. Who knows, but it is easy to confirm that Yugo-made barrels aren't chrome lined.

 

[Avenger29]

Is the fact that the AR is a precision instrument the reason that it jams if it doesn't have "m4" feed ramps? Is the fact that it is a precision rifle the reason it fails to extract because it has a blue extractor spring assembly instead of a black one"?

The lack of M4 feed ramps and an updated extractor spring assembly do not condemn an AR to failure. They are reliablity enhancements, particuarly when it comes to the more tempramental carbine systems that are subject to full auto fire, etc.

Honestly, you're the one doing the most posting in this thread and it seems to be mainly thinly veiled criticism against the AR-15. I think you've already made up your mind and firmly believe in the AK's infallibility.

At least with an AK the damn thing will go bang and there's a reason for that although I am not sure how many folks are open minded enough to see it.

No, I don't think YOU are open minded enough to realize that AKs will malf, too. Any gun will.

The AR is more reliable and the AK is more accurate than popular wisdom says. There, does that make you happy?

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

A bad brand is a bad brand, doesn't matter if it is made in the US or in China.

You can get good and bad examples of both platforms.

If I had to get the worst of either platform, I would rather go with the AK since it was made to work on loose tolerances. If I were gonna buy the most expensive/high quality of either platform, the AR15 wins with ease.

 

[W.E.G.]

AK-47... the very best there is...

 

[545days]

The variances in AKs are well documented. They are not typically discussed, because the typical AK owner does not have the tools to disassemble a rivited rifle in order to interchange parts. Go read the "Build it Yourself" forum for the AK-47 at AR15.com, and you will discover that there are in fact many variations of "milspec" in the AK family, not just one as you propose in your original post.

I fail to see the logic that the availability of crap magazines makes the AR15 platform somehow flawed. Low grade, low quality aftermarket parts will always be available in any free market to meet the demands of cost (but not quality) conscious consumers. The free market did not exist in the Soviet block, therefore no crap aftermarket magazines.

There is a relationship between tightness of fit and reliability. Very tight = very accurate, yet more prone to jams.

As to your argument that American made equals crap, I find that to be in opposition to your signature block.

 

[Avenger29]

Oh, and by the way, if an American made company wanted to build an AK that worked as well as a combloc AK, out of entirely US parts, and using US magazines, they could.

It would probably be pretty expensive, though, and there is virtually no market so long as we have parts kits and rifles being shipped in.

The only reason US parts are in production for the AK is to fill the artificial needs that are set by the government's regulations on importable rifles and components. These components and rifles are often made to lower standards to simply meet a price point.

 

[outerlimit]

One big exception: Yugos. Original Yugoslavian AKs (M70 and M72) made in Yugoslavia for the Yugoslavian military generally had non-chrome-lined barrels. The reason I've read, which I'll admit sounds fishy, was that Yugoslavia didn't have domestic resources of chromium and didn't feel like importing it. Who knows, but it is easy to confirm that Yugo-made barrels aren't chrome lined.

I don't know if the reasoning it correct, it may very well be, but it sounds plausible, as the Yugo SKS rifles are not chrome lined either. It could simply have been a penny pinching decision as well since most of the Yugo 7.62x39mm ammunition I've seen was not corrosive. But I guess some has been. That might be a penny pinching decision as well. The Yugo SKS rifles I'm referring to are the surplus imports manufactured from roughly the late 1960's, to around 1992.

 

[W.E.G.]

Oh, and by the way, if an American made company wanted to build an AK that worked as well as a combloc AK, out of entirely US parts, and using US magazines, they could.

It would probably be pretty expensive, though, and there is virtually no market...

http://www.centuryarms.biz/proddetail.asp?prod=RI1622-N

 

[Avenger29]

So, W.E.G., is that actually 100% made in the US components or the other AKs out there that has enough compliance parts to count as US made?

 

[W.E.G.]

Its vapor ware so far.

So, if you're breathing it, and you're in America, then its 100% American.