AR-15 or Kel-tech sub 2000 to fill semi-auto need?

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

borrowedtime69

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
756
Location
Denver CO area
so, i am on a budget so tight my wallet suffocated :rolleyes:, but i was just starting to save for a Panther Arms DPMS Oracle .5.56/.223 rem for $500 sold locally to have a semi-auto rifle. I currently have a Savage Axis in .223 Rem thats very accurate & im very happy with it, although its a bolt gun.

itll take me a while to save up for it as im on a tight budget And being a bit "disabled" with alot of medical bills, although i do work full time, above minimum wage, in a job i love very much and do not take public assistance.

i would leave it open sites, but would still have to pay about $100 for Magpul open sights as it doesnt come with them.

This weekend i went to the gun show here and saw a Kel-Tech Sub 2000 folding "sub"-rifle in 9MM for about $350 - $375, i had completely forgotten about these little guys!

https://www.keltecweapons.com/rifles/sub-2000"]https://www.keltecweapons.com/rifles/sub-2000

kel-tec_sub2k-1.jpg

This little rifle would be compact and light but give me a seemingly decent little rifle to throw lead down range. i will need a semi-auto centerfire in the coming months as i may be traveling and this would be small enough to pack away out of sight AND i could afford one before i leave. I do have questions about my situation though if you guys could help me out please?

- is this a reliable shooter that doesnt jam?

- i was thinking of the one that takes the Smith & Wesson M&P mags for lower cost, but can i get 20 - 30 round mags for this or will i need to go with the Glock mags model?

- is this Kel-tech accurate out to where? 75? 100 yards?

- how much power are we talking about out to 75/100 yards with 9 MM (i shoot 115 grn out of my old Ruger pistol)

- i like the thought of having my savage bolt gun for long range accuracy & at the same time carrying a small semi-auto for up close or emergency use (quick follow-up shots, etc), would you be comfortable using this rifle like this, to fit this nitch?

- any other info would be greatly appreciated! thank you!
 
I’ve looked at the Kel-Tecs and see them as a folding gun to keep in a gear bag or in a vehicle. They look cool. But they wouldn’t be my primary rifle.

I’d rather have an AR this way I know if I’m in a jam I could share parts with my buddies if things got bad. Of course, having your own spare parts and mags is even better.

FYI I’ve been through the hard times myself. I’d suggest going the AR route first. For a decent AR that’s not too expensive, get a PSA lower. Then get an upper when you can. Add an optic when you can.

You’ll then have a good solid rifle. From there you can save for the Sub2000if you want something to have that’s compact, or you could but parts for a second build.

Also don’t forget, buy a little ammo when you can. A box a month can really add up and it doesn’t kill the budget as bad as a big order.
 
IMG_1880.JPG Mine is flawless and very accurate.....I use it to cull g/hogs when necessary.

A good friend of mine and a top-notch gunsmith, made the forend and muzzle brake before he lost his eyesight.

I've carried it on my tractors a few times but the .45 HiPoint carbine is my usual rider and, once out of ammo, makes a great bat! Plus, my carbine is rugged enough to lever the tractor out of a hog hole, works well as a jack stand, and is a good-for-everything tool!
 
Last edited:
I've got one of the first Gen Sub 2Ks, uses the same mags as the S&W 5906.
It's accurate, light weight, and has been dependable, although I haven't used it in the last couple years. (Maybe I'll take it out today)
The only drawback I can see is that people with limited hand strength find it difficult to operate the bolt, it's kinda stiff.
They weigh about 4 1/2 pounds and make great hiking guns.
 
Only you can decide what fills your needs. You do have the Savage for precision work. The Sub 2000 will certainly serve for home defense and costs less to purchase and feed, but the sub 2000 is not a precision long range shooter. Fun, yes. Serviceable for protection, yes.
 
Since you already have a 223 bolt gun my vote would be for the Ar-15. My first Ar was a DPMS Bull 20. Very, very accurate rifle which I still have to this day. There are many ways to get into the Ar game with a tight budget. As Hokie mentioned above you can build your own with a pre-assembled upper and lower on the cheap.....
 
Your two choices are not in the same category although they will overlap in some roles. They will both be good for home defense, range toy, things like that. The 9mm will punch paper at 75-100 yards but beyond 50 yards I would choose the .223.
The Oracle is a good rifle and the sub 2K gets good reviews, so I guess if you don't have a need for long range lethality (you already have a .223) then you can't go wrong either way.
 
Dittto ontarget. You were typing at the same time as I was.

O.P. you need to identify what your need is first. You are discussing two totally different cartridges and guns. Why do you want/need a long gun on your trip?

The 9mm is a pistol cartridge that has limited application in a carbine. It sheds velocity rapidly and the bullet is not designed for long range performance. At 75 yards it is considered "combat accurate" (whatever that is). The sight radius on the longer barrel improves real world ability to shoot it more accurately. For long range shooting I would choose a heavier bullet than the 115 gr. which means some range sessions and buying different brands and types of ammunition which may be a issue since you are on a limited budget.

The .223 / 5.56 cartridge is a designed especially for use in the carbine. It is finding some application in use in short barrels as a handgun. (I suspect this is because it is really a legal way to get around the restrictions on SBR's). In a short barrel it has a lot of muzzle blast and noise. Since you already own a .223 you are most likely good-to-go with the ammunition you already have on hand.

So the 9mm is pistol round and the .223 / 5.56 is a rifle that both crossover into opposite roles good enough for most civilian uses.
 
borrowedtime69 said:
- is this a reliable shooter that doesnt jam?
Click to expand...

With factory brass cased ammo, yes.

borrowedtime69 said:
i was thinking of the one that takes the Smith & Wesson M&P mags for lower cost, but can i get 20 - 30 round mags for this or will i need to go with the Glock mags model?
Click to expand...

I had the S&W mag one. If you have a source of cheap S&W mags, go for it-there are 20 round S&W mags made. If buying one now, i'd get the Glock mag one.

borrowedtime69 said:
- is this Kel-tech accurate out to where? 75? 100 yards?
Click to expand...

I was hitting post-Halloween pumpkins with ease at 100 yards.

borrowedtime69 said:
- how much power are we talking about out to 75/100 yards with 9 MM (i shoot 115 grn out of my old Ruger pistol)
Click to expand...

Nowwhere near a .223's power at 100 yards, but I'd still not want to got hit by one.

borrowedtime69 said:
- i like the thought of having my savage bolt gun for long range accuracy & at the same time carrying a small semi-auto for up close or emergency use (quick follow-up shots, etc), would you be comfortable using this rifle like this, to fit this nitch?
Click to expand...

As Hokie said, if you want something to throw in a bag, good choice. As a vehicle gun, a pistol AR would be a better choice; even a regular M-4 style carbine is better for that role.

Shop around. Like SamT1, my son found his Oracle at the local LGS for $399.
 
Last edited:
Local shop to me has the oracles for $399. You may shop around for one. This would get your sites too for $500 plus tax.

You can’t go wrong with a $400 AR.
 
thank you all very much! i greatly appreciate your taking time for these replies! i think ill save up for the AR then save up for the Kel-Tech next year.
 
^^ Probably a good idea. The price on AR-types has a greater chance of escalating rapidly than does the price on the KT. The old "get one while you can" adage may well apply here to some extent.
 
borrowedtime69 said:
... this would be small enough to pack away out of sight AND i could afford one before i leave. I do have questions about my situation though if you guys could help me out please?
Click to expand...

borrowedtime69 said:
thank you all very much! i greatly appreciate your taking time for these replies! i think ill save up for the AR then save up for the Kel-Tech next year.
Click to expand...

Don't forget that an AR is also a takedown gun. I have a Bulldog Case as shown in the link below. It fits 16" barreled ARs perfectly. It comes in black or blue.

https://www.amazon.com/Bulldog-Case...srs=3019861011&ie=UTF8&qid=1521400179&sr=8-15
 
Definitely consider AR as your primary option. And don't get too hung up on ordering the best sights money can buy, eBay still has folding Chinese magpul knockoffs that are very serviceable in the 15 dollar range. Go the PSA route, watch the daily deals and you can score halves of an AR for about 150-175, put them together and add in a $75 bcg/ch combo when you see that sale. 400 bucks is very doable for a very basic AR. 500 buys you the whole gun, spare mags, and a few hundred rds of ammo, but you have to shop smart and be patient. Rifle build kits arent bad at all if you can get a lower reciever locally.
 
Holy smokes...I hit eBay just to find a link for sights, they are down to 5 bucks for what I had a couple years ago. My search was for "airsoft folding sight", because eBay doesn't like to sell AR15 parts.
 
Hokie_PhD said:
Unless you buy several at a time and it’s a killer sale!

And we all know it’s not a bad idea to have a stripped lower or five or more stashed away!
Click to expand...
Can you explain that to my wife? She doesn't understand when I explain it. She also doesn't understand the need for 100 acres of mixed timber on a river with steep secondary banks that could be flooded into a small private lake.
 
$488.97 + shipping + FFL fees will get you a complete upper with BCG, charging handle, Magpul handguard, and Magpul rear sight (upper has FSB), complete lower with Magpul furniture, enhanced basic trigger, and 1 DH 30-round magazine from Palmetto. That breaks down to: $179.99 for lower, $299.99 for complete upper, and $8.99 for the magazine.

You need only pin the upper to the lower. There are cheaper options but you’ll have everything you need in one stop this way without the need to “upgrade” iffy sights or a basic stock.
 
The .223 round is ballistically better than the 9mm round in every way. But 9mm might be more convenient for you to shoot depending on the range you go to. Also, the Kel-Tec is a fun little rifle. However, a well-built AR will be more reliable and durable than a Sub 2K most of the time.

But I wouldn’t consider the DPMS Oracle to be a well-built AR. It’s very inexpensive, but remember that you often get what you pay for. This is the case with the Oracle: It’s a low-end AR that’s not assembled correctly and uses low-end parts.

With casual usage the rifle might not cause problems, but over time (or with hard use) you’re more likely to see problems than you would with a higher-end rifle.

Here’s an article where an armorer took apart an Oracle and analyzed the parts and how they were assembled:

https://primaryandsecondary.com/autopsy-of-a-rifle-dpms-oracle-5-56-mm/
 
Due to your budget constraints and the fact you already have a 223 rifle I would consider a hi point 995 carbine. They are as ugly as a mud fence but they are accurate, reliable, and can be had for under $200 used. If the choice was between a 9mm carbine and an AR15 for my only semi auto rifle I would get an AR15.
 
WestKentucky said:
Can you explain that to my wife? She doesn't understand when I explain it. She also doesn't understand the need for 100 acres of mixed timber on a river with steep secondary banks that could be flooded into a small private lake.
Click to expand...
Seems like you have a problem
If she gets neither what good is she (just kidding for the humor challenged)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

S
  • Locked
kel tec sub 2000 question
Replies
10
Views
506
Walkalong
Walkalong
R
  • Locked
Kel-Tec Sub 2000 9mm fit for Glock magazines
2
Replies
33
Views
5K
tinygnat219
T
C
  • Locked
Kel-Tec sub 2000 pros/cons?
Replies
16
Views
3K
thriftyjoe
T
Panzerschwein
  • Locked
Kel-Tec Sub 2000 Gen 2 for Defense?
2
Replies
49
Views
9K
MechAg94
M
someguy2800
  • Locked
Is there a sub moa 5.56 semi auto that isn't an AR15?
2 3
Replies
50
Views
3K
someguy2800
someguy2800
Back
Top