AR-15s and deer hunting in Maine

[SigfanUSAF]

Just a quick question.

I am going to downeast Maine in November for a deer hunting trip/ vacation with an old school friend. I grew up there, hunted there for 5 years before moving to NC. I've hunted deer with 12 ga, 8mm Mauser, 30-06, and .303 Enfield, succesfully, I might add. I haven't been hunting in going on 6 years now, and I'm looking forward to getting back in the saddle. My choice of a rifle to bring with me is an AR-15A1, with an ACOG mounted on the carry handle. I realize .223 is a little light for deer(?), but I feel between my shooting abilities and my ACOG 4x TA01 scope, this combo might work.
Does anyone have any experiences hunting deer with this caliber? Rifle? Scope? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Also with the liscense comes with a bear tag. Would the .223 be sufficient for the Maine black bear as well, or should I leave them up to my friends .308? What load/make of ammo would be ideal here. That and I'm hoping my 6 years in the Carolinas hasn't totally ruined my tolerance for Maine cold

-Sigfan

 

[Grumulkin]

The 223 Remington should be fine for deer if you hit it right. I took one this year with a single shot with a 222 Remington earlier this year and it has less steam than the 223 Remington. A 4X scope is also all you really need.

I would go with the 308 Winchester for bear rather than the 223. The 223 might work but it wouldn't be my first choice.

 

[Car Knocker]

Don't forget the 5-round magazine capacity restriction.

4. Auto-loading firearm (a firearm which reloads itself after each shot and requires a separate trigger pull for each shot). It is unlawful to hunt with or possess for hunting any auto-loading firearm which has a magazine capacity of more than 5 cartridges,* unless the magazine has been permanently altered to contain not more than 5 cartridges . (Note: This provision does not apply to .22 caliber rimfire guns or to auto-loading pistols with barrel lengths of less than 8 inches). *Plus 1 in the chamber for a total of 6.

http://www.maine.gov/ifw/hunttrap/hunt_traplaws.htm#huntingequipment

 

[ptmmatssc]

Yes , what Car Knocker said . 5 rounds max and the mag has to be permanently altered to accept ONLY 5 rounds . But, kind of a gray area at times . I have a KEL TEC carbine that I'm using and showed a warden the mag (glock 22) and how it was blocked by wooden dowel within the spring . Not permanent , but he said it was acceptable since I could not easily and readily convert it back . As far as 223 , it's adequate for whitetails , as long as shot placement is good .

 

[Art Eatman]

Lemme say this about that: Don't show up at my west Texas deer camp with a .223 or a 7.62x39 and expect to hunt deer.

If you just absolutely MUST use the .223, use 70-grain bullets and limit yourself to ranges where you're absolutely sure of a neck or brain shot.

Art

 

[priv8ter]

Not sure...

I'm with you on the .223 thing(not sure on the 7.62 X 39 though, Cor-bon makes a nice hunting load), Art...it's not legal to hunt with here in Washington, and I'll admit that has caused me to distrust it even in states where it is legal. I know, I know...thousands of deer have been killed by .223's or .22-250's...but it's still not my first choice.

What about a .243 WSSM Upper? That is getting nice reviews on deer, if you belive that adds they pay for in gun magazines.

As for bear...and hopefully I am not overdoing this, but I feel it would be downright irresponsible to shoot a bear with a .223. Even black bear that weighs the same as a medium sized whitetail is built so much heavier that a .223 is not the right cartridge.

greg

 

[SigfanUSAF]

This is the setup I plan on using. The barrel is a 1 in 12" twist, so is it my understanding that any bullet weight over 55 grain would be ineffective? The 20 round mag was blocked this am to only accept 4 rounds, to eliminate any confusion. I painted it with black baking laquer for instant identification from my other 20 rounders.

 

[dakotasin]

i tried to stay out of this...

the 223 on deer in maine, w/ the large bodies and large fat under the skin is not a good idea (but do-able). a 223 on black bear is just a bad idea.

you'll be hunting in maine... these aren't going to be little southern deer.

 

['Card]

To me the question isn't whether or not a .223 will kill a deer. Of course it will with a perfectly-placed shot, but by that logic, a .22LR will kill a deer every time too if you place the shot just right - but that doesn't mean hunting with a .22LR is a good idea, does it?

Will the AR work? Sure. But for deer hunting in heavy woods there are much better cartridges out there. Better for you. Better for the deer. Cartridges in platforms that won't cost you an arm and a leg, and will leave you with a much larger margin for error - and you aren't some kind of range cowboy. You've hunted enough to know that no matter how good you are, errors happen.

Sorry. That sounds like I'm really coming down on you and I don't intend for it to come across that way. It's just that this topic comes up in the hunting forum a lot, and I always say the same thing: If an AR is all you've got, then don't let that stop you - by all means, go hunting. But if you can afford or have access to something else? I'd use that if I were in your shoes.

 

[Mantis]

Speaking as someone who recently returned from a Maine black bear hunt - do NOT use a .223 on bear ! They are very tough animals. I'm sure that you would be able to eventually kill one with a .223, but it isn't the most sporting thing to do. Besides, you don't want to take the chance of wounding one and then have it circle back to hunt YOU. If you'll be hunting an area anything like I hunted, the cover is extremely thick and chances are that a P.O.'ed bear would find you before you found it.

 

[SigfanUSAF]

you'll be hunting in maine... these aren't going to be little southern deer.

I realize this. When I started this thread I stated that I was an avid hunter in Maine. For no less than 5 years, I hunted deer every season. I have not stepped foot in the woods to hunt in the south. Nor have I even seen a deer outside of New England. I realize the 223 may not be the best choice, but the only part of my question that I still need answered is what bullet grain with a 1 in 12" twist barrel would be optimum for 50 to 75 yard shots? I WILL NOT shoot a bear with it. My friend is bringing a .308, so if he wants to shoot one, I'll leave that to him. I was more or less curious. Thank you all for your input.

 

[Mantis]

I've heard of people having good performance on deer with 64g Winchester Powerpoints, but I don't know if they will work in a 1 in 12.

 

[carnaby]

.223 on deer, seems like a bad idea. I recently saw a video of US troops in Iraq shooting a poor old mutt. Shot it 6 times at close range and still didn't put the darn dog out of his misery. Why not use something that will give you the good ol' BANG! ... Whump.

 

[ptmmatssc]

Just need to interject for a sec . I have been hunting in Maine for close to 30 years and can tell you that small light rounds (.223, 270 , etc etc ) are more problems than anything . Maine is heavily wooded and from experience i know that rounds can change course from the smallest branch . Therefore , the main hunting calibers up here tend to be more "brush gun" types , like a .30-.30 . Not saying a .223 won't drop a deer , but shot placement is much more critical and requires open terrain to avoid deflection of the round . Just my .02 from hunting and watching others with various calibers hunt here in the state . Worse experience for myself was the opposite . Shot a deer at about 30 yards with a .45-.70 loaded with 500 grain . Made for a load of hamburg lol .

 

[SigfanUSAF]

ptmmatssc, where we are going hunting in Washington County, there are mostly open blueberry fields. Where (roughly) in Maine are you from? I spent the majority of my life in Eastport before moving to NC. We have hunted all around eastern Washington County.

 

[gspn]

Sigfan - is that list of firearms in your tag line a list of guns you own? It looks like you've killed deer with several of those guns listed. Why not use one of those again? Why use a bullet that is way lighter than a prudent hunter would use for deer?

I hunt southern whitetail and if someone showed up at the farm with a .223 I'd tell them they could shoot paper at the range but there would be no way they'd hunt deer with that puny cartridge. Not fair to the animal, and not fair to me as I'd most likely end up helping track the darned thing.

I kill about 10 deer a year so I've got lots of experience with the critters. My motto is pray for the best and plan for the worst. 223 is not the best plan. Deer move, the wind blows, branches get in the way, adrenaline pumps, people flinch, triggers get jerked, it's cold and you shake. There are a lot of things that people swear will never go wrong that always do. Why not use a round that delivers more energy and maximize your chances of recovery if some little thing does go wrong and causes your shot to be less than perfect?

 

[Sunray]

"...Shot it 6 times..." Ball ammo is not made for that.
The .223 isn't suitable for deer. Certainly not with 55 grain bullets. Especially if you don't reload. Most factory ammo is loaded with varmint bullets that don't penetrate enough.

 

[SigfanUSAF]

Yes, that is my current collection. I wanted to try hunting with the AR simply because I never had. I wonder if I could put the ACOG on my Mosin Actually, the M-44 is a new purchase, and wouldn't mind trying it out. I was planning on taking it to the range this coming weekend to check it's accuracy anyway. If all goes well, perhaps she'll follow me northward. Looks like the AR will be the rabbit gun. Thanks all for the input.

 

[Byron Quick]

Yes, you can kill deer with the .223. With a properly placed shot. What you can probably not do is make an ethical, clean kill.

Hunting deer with this cartridge...even small southern deer is not prudent. There is only one way I would use one of my AR-15's to hunt deer-I owned no other rifle and could not borrow a better choice rifle from a friend. Even then, I would pass up many shots which I would take with a more appropriate firearm. Any centerfire cartridge is legal in Georgia. Legal doesn't matter in this case, as legal and ethical are often not congruent.

It might be a good idea to check out polls about hunting taken among non-hunters in your state. Here, in Georgia, when ethical fair chase hunting is described, a solid majority of non-hunters support hunting. When various means of hunting are described that are less ethical and less fair chase-even though legal-the support becomes a small minority.

In case you haven't noticed, hunters are a minority today. There is no constitutional right to hunt on a federal level or in most states. We can keep the support of the non-hunters by ethical fair chase hunting or we can drive them into the arms of the PETA lunatics-and see a referendum in our state about the legality of ANY type of hunting...and watch us lose it. The choice is ours.

Wounded deer wandering around is not only unsporting, it is downright dangerous to all hunters everywhere in the US.

 

[Grumulkin]

I've made 2 "ethical clean kills" (both one shot kills) on deer with .22 cal. centerfires this year; one with a .22-250 and one with a .222. One of them (with the .22-250) was a bang flop at a GPS measured 360 yards. The one with the .222 was an 80 to 100 yard shot and that animal did go a short distance before collapsing. The two I shot with a .30/06 and Hornady Interbonds went about as far as the one I shot with the .222.

If you hit them right, a .223 will do just fine if you use the right bullets. I use Speer 70 grain Semi-Spitzers which give me better than 1 MOA from my 1:12 twist barrels.

I think some of you gentlemen should consider getting off of your high horses. Use what you like but there is nothing unethical about using a .22 cal. centerfire on deer.

 

[Art Eatman]

Grumulkin, it's not "high horse". First off, there is the skill-level aspect. If you're a good rifleman, and you're calm and not quivering with adrenalin, fine. Not everybody is all that wondrously experienced. Not everybody is picky enough to refrain from taking the less-than-perfect shot.

Next is my own notion that Mr. Murphy never quits, and his Law is superior to anybody's Constitution. That deer takes a step just as you shoot, and then what? When it's a gutshot and not the desired heart shot, for instance? It's that sort of thing that makes me want "more than enough gun".

There's a bunch of difference between the newbies or average folks, and the high-skilled old hands...

Art

 

[gspn]

SigFan - A old Marine buddy of mine hunts occasionally with a Mosin-Nagant. He loves it.

 

[gspn]

Grumulkin - You remind me of the folks I talk to around here that talk about how long a shot they took with how small a caliber as if that makes them a "better" hunter. 4 questions later I usually start hearing about how many times they wounded deer and the ones that left blood and hair everywhere but were never recovered like it's just a carnival shoooting game. I talk to a lot of people that like to dismiss the poor shots and unrecovered deer and just brag on the times where it worked out. Generally I hear that sort of talk form folks that like to inflate their own ego. I'll never know if you're that sort or not, I hope not, but I run into that bunch every year.

The 22-.250 using a 60 grain Nosler Partition from Federal has 485 ft.-lbs. of energy at 400 yards (I'm rounding up from your 360 rather than take the time to interpolate from the data). Compare that to say a .243 100 grain load with 951 ft.-lbs. of energy at 400 yards. Or a .270 130 grain with 1,400 ft-lbs. Which is the best choice? Which gives you more margin of error? And it doesn't matter to me how good a marksman one thinks they are...Mr. Murphy is omnipresent. If you have access to a great tool, why use a marginal one.

Energy figures at 400 yards:

22-250 with 485 ft-lbs
.243 with 951 ft-lbs
.270 with 1,400 ft-lbs

Do you know how long it takes a 22-250 bullet to travel 360 yards? The Federal load above takes roughly 0.4 seconds (360 yards = 1080 feet and assume an avg velocity from muzzle to 400 yards of 2,667 fps). Almost half a second to travel from the barrel to the target. How fast can a deer move in half a second? Prett dang fast in my experience. In fact, shooting my bow at 15 yards a deer can drop several inches in 0.12 seconds (arrow @ 250 fps with deer 35 feet away). SEVERAL inches if they jump on the string noise. Even if you shoot perfectly the deer can move 6-12 inches before your bullet gets there. And that spells a poor shot, and then you need as much insurance as you can get, and the 22-250 doesn't give you much extra.

I don't believe you have a firm grasp on how slim a margin of error you leave yourself with 360 yards shots and marginal calibers. Maybe you're the type that has to make all the mistakes themselves before learning the lessons. Or maybe when you wound one and lose it you'll chalk it up to something other than your superior marksmanship and hard hitting long range deer killing 22-250.

Just because it worked twice doesn't mean it's ethical, or prudent. What state has rifle season open this early by the way? You've killed 2 this year with a rifle? I wish our season started that early...I'm stuck with a bow until November.

Just because people with experience think what you're doing is not wise, doesn't mean they're riding a "high horse".

Again, I don't know you personally, and I hope I'm reading you wrong, but I've never seen a logical argument supporting the use of a .22 caliber rifle for deer. Sure, it can be done, I could kill them with a rock under the right circumstances, but it doesn't mean the odds are with you in the long run.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A friend of mine just killed a 300+ pounds black bear (it's bow season right now.) We field dressed the bear and muscled it up to where we could load it in a standard 5X10 tilt trailer (the kind you would load a 4-wheeler into.) The paws were lashed to the corners -- and they touched the corners.

Now that would not be an especially big blackie in Maine (animals grow bigger in the northern states.) but I think if you saw that bear filling that trailer, you'd not want to shoot it with a .223.

Now, I don't mean blackies are all that dangerous, but they have an awful lot of heavy fur, thick hide, slabs of muscle and heavy bones for such a small cartridge. Show respect for the game and carry something like a .308.

 

[carnaby]

We have early "high buck" in our alpine wilderness areas from Sept 15-25. I'll be out for the regular season with a .300 win mag. Should have plenty good margin of error.