ATF declares a 14 inch shoe string a machinegun
- Thread starter jsalcedo
- Start date
- Status
CleverNickname
Member
Here's a picture. Note the attached metal tab where the C2 inscribed the serial number on this "machine gun".
Sinsaba
Member
Isn't that just an elaborate way to "bump fire"? Doesn't the trigger get actuated for each round fired? What about the "gatling" devices you can buy?
I'm confused!!
I'm confused!!
bump firing will not work with the rifle held solid since rifle movement is the key to bump firing. The string method uses the motion of the rifle's bolt to actuate the trigger each time; the rifle can be held in one place. The danger is the string activating the trigger before the bolt has closed (locked) completely. The string is acting as an external auto-sear without the normal timing precautions machined into real auto-sears and bolts.Sinsaba said:Isn't that just an elaborate way to "bump fire"? Doesn't the trigger get actuated for each round fired? What about the "gatling" devices you can buy?
I'm confused!!
Gattling type devices are legal if you don't use an electric motor (or something equivelent) to operate the firing mechanism. A finger or hand turning a crank is fine.
Last edited:
Devonai
Member
Hmm, the ATF's letter says that the device must be "designed and intended solely and exclusively... for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun."
But couldn't you also tie your shoes with it?
But couldn't you also tie your shoes with it?
silverlance
Member
yah,
i can see how that could be really really dangerous.
exploding guns are no fun, yes?
besides, what use could such a firearm be of in any kind of fight? besides maybe making a makeshift pillbox...
i can see how that could be really really dangerous.
exploding guns are no fun, yes?
besides, what use could such a firearm be of in any kind of fight? besides maybe making a makeshift pillbox...
If you look at the picture you can see that the little metal ring is meant to be pulled in order to fire the weapon, this makes that ring the new "trigger". You can pull the ring, hold it back and the weapon will continue to fire until it is released. This is the defining feature of a machingun.
Spiggy
Member
good greif, my shoes are packing HEAT!
stealthmode
Member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2004
- Messages
- 459
im going to trim all my laces to 13.9" just to be safe
Taurus 66
Member
ATF?! Did someone mention ATF?
Agent Oschmuckski, did you misplace your badge ..... again?!
Agent Oschmuckski, did you misplace your badge ..... again?!
Preacherman
Member
Hey, we all want our guns with no strings attached... don't we?
HankB
Member
I don't think that's right . . . most if not all semi-autos have a disconnector so that pulling the trigger won't fire the gun unless the bolt IS closed. It would take some sort of malfunction (wear, broken part, etc.) to fire the gun in an out-of-battery condition by means of a trigger pull.
Otherwise we'd be hearing of "incidents" all the time . . . especially with those trigger-crank gizmos that use a cam to actuate the trigger.
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Messages
- 22,510
HankB makes a good point. The firing pin is held in a retracted position until the bolt is closed. That's the function of the web (or bridge) of the receiver and the tail of the firing pin - both designs are passed down to us by John Garand. Still, anyone with shoelaces expect to be stopped and arrested by Homeland Security. Go velco or slip-on if you want to avoid the hassle.
Zach S
Member
I'm in the clear. Tha laces for my boots are about 6 feet long, putting me well over that limit.
OTOH, they look at them as multiple violations....
OTOH, they look at them as multiple violations....
jpIII
Member
Similar things could be said about all full auto parts. I think they would make dandy paperweights, or ballast for my remote control sailboat.
I dont think the point is how dangerous it is, but the stupidity of the "determinations" handed down by the ATF.
Here is another good one for you. If you have an H&K trigger pack that is a swing down version with the registered sear in it, and you want to move it to another H&K, you cant drill the hole for the pivot pin. The ATF has also decided that the hold itself is a MG, and not the other host gun. I will see if I can find the letter, it was either on Bardwells site or in SAR a good while ago.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter22.txt
Here is one reference to it.
How does a hole consititue a machinegun? How does a hole that the auto sear does not engage (unlike the AR and AK auto sear holes) determine that a weapon is capable of full auto fire?
Here is another good one for you. If you have an H&K trigger pack that is a swing down version with the registered sear in it, and you want to move it to another H&K, you cant drill the hole for the pivot pin. The ATF has also decided that the hold itself is a MG, and not the other host gun. I will see if I can find the letter, it was either on Bardwells site or in SAR a good while ago.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter22.txt
Here is one reference to it.
How does a hole consititue a machinegun? How does a hole that the auto sear does not engage (unlike the AR and AK auto sear holes) determine that a weapon is capable of full auto fire?
So wait, according to the ATF, you need not have an assembled machine gun, but merely machine gun parts capable of being assembled in your possesion to be in violation of the law, right? So does this mean that If I have a semi-automatic rifle, a bit of string, and a keychain in my house that I am now in possesion of parts that are "capable of being assembled into a machinegun", and can go to the slammer for ten years or so? That seems to make a lot of sense...
James
James
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
So if your shoe strings are less than 14" do you have to register them on a Form 1 as a "Short Barrelled Shoestring" ?
CONGRESS CONFIRMS LACK OF ATF TESTING STANDARDS
Tuesday, November 01, 2005
GUN OWNERS, 1 - ATF, 0
MAJOR DEVELOPMENT IN THE FIGHT FOR OUR RIGHTS
We're proud to announce a major breakthrough in the long battle to curb the abuses of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).
The Congressional Research Service (CRS), an arm of the U.S. Congress, has issued a memo telling the world what we've always said (http://www.jpfo.org/batfearticles.htm): that ATF "experts" use arbitrary, made-up standards when they bring charges against gun owners and testify against us in court.
You can read the CRS report here: http://www.jpfo.org/ATFguntests.pdf
Read it carefully. Notice something important. Although the CRS did an investigation of its own, it relied heavily on information that came straight from gun-maker Len Savage and JPFO.
THIS REPORT ALMOST GOT BURIED!
Although JPFO does not lobby Congress or urge anyone else to, JPFO's work and Len's was instrumental in bringing this report into the world. We're proud of that fact.
But YOUR work was instrumental, too, if you were one of the many Americans who asked their representatives to get a copy of the ATF's testing procedures manual.
No such ATF manual exists. One after one, at gun owners' urging, congressmen asked the CRS to get the manual. The CRS asked the ATF to produce the manual. And they hit a wall.
Then something ominous happened. For several weeks, the CRS, urged on by a frantic Justice Department, planned to bury this information.
Why? Because these revelations could potentially overturn hundreds, even thousands, of criminal prosecutions of innocent gun owners, going back decades.
But YOU kept pushing. And you did it on your own.
Finally the CRS had no choice but to reveal the truth: the ATF simply "makes it up as they go along."
WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS
The CRS memo changes nothing by itself. It has no legal force. But it is the first light Congress has shone on the ATF in 23 years. It is a _beginning_. It is a tool concerned gun owners -- and defense attorneys -- can use.
It's also a demonstration of the truth of two well-known quotations about the power of the grassroots.
"When I feel the heat, I see the light." -- Sen. Everett Dirksen
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that can." -- Margaret Mead
Now, what the future holds is, in part, up to you. Take action!
1) READ the CRS report.
2) SHARE IT. Circulate the link to it on email lists. Post the link on your blog. Let the world know. Think of two dozen -- or a hundred -- friends who need to see the report and share it with them.
3) ASK QUESTIONS. "How can I get more gun-rights groups involved in this?" "When is Congress going to curb the ATF?" "What can I do about it?" "What should ALL gun owners do about it?" "What can defense lawyers do with this report?" "Do I know any lawyers or abused gun owners who should get a copy of this?"
4) BUILD FORCES to demand that this report be acted upon and not ignored.
The CRS report isn't dramatic. The language is calm and legalistic. It has no force in law. The drama comes when this report inspires OUTRAGE and ACTION.
Thanks to Len Savage, JPFO, and a few hundred gun owners, you now have proof that backs what abused gun owners have been shouting all these years.
Now ... run with it.
If American gun owners take this memo and demand action upon it, this little report will be bigger than the recent pro-gun vote in Brazil, bigger than forcing FEMA to allow firearms into refugee settlements. This has the potential to lead to the dismantling of one of the worst agencies of the federal government.
Even if it doesn't lead to the end of the ATF, it could still stop the ruin of thousands of gun owners' lives and the abuse of millions of gun owners' rights.
In a corollary to Everett Dirksen's famous remark, we always say "Attack their pension to get their attention." ATF agents are just working men and women who want to make a living and retire comfortably. Threatening their security is the best way to force them to behave.
And make no mistake. Despite the polite language, the revelations in this report are a major threat to ATF power.
Now ... our next step is to make sure the nobody tolerates ATF abuses. We must keep the light shining on the CRS report until every defense lawyer, judge, and leader in the land is aware of it.
Then we must absolutely refuse to tolerate anyone who tolerates ATF abuses.
Finally, after decades, WE, the American gun owners, are in a position to take initiative and control.
Will you stand with JPFO and Len Savage? Or will you let the ATF get away with its abuses when the power to stop them has finally been placed in your hands? Your freedom is up to you.
The Liberty Crew
http://www.freemarketnews.com/Analysis/105/2781/2005-11-01.asp?nid=2781&wid=105
Tuesday, November 01, 2005
GUN OWNERS, 1 - ATF, 0
MAJOR DEVELOPMENT IN THE FIGHT FOR OUR RIGHTS
We're proud to announce a major breakthrough in the long battle to curb the abuses of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).
The Congressional Research Service (CRS), an arm of the U.S. Congress, has issued a memo telling the world what we've always said (http://www.jpfo.org/batfearticles.htm): that ATF "experts" use arbitrary, made-up standards when they bring charges against gun owners and testify against us in court.
You can read the CRS report here: http://www.jpfo.org/ATFguntests.pdf
Read it carefully. Notice something important. Although the CRS did an investigation of its own, it relied heavily on information that came straight from gun-maker Len Savage and JPFO.
THIS REPORT ALMOST GOT BURIED!
Although JPFO does not lobby Congress or urge anyone else to, JPFO's work and Len's was instrumental in bringing this report into the world. We're proud of that fact.
But YOUR work was instrumental, too, if you were one of the many Americans who asked their representatives to get a copy of the ATF's testing procedures manual.
No such ATF manual exists. One after one, at gun owners' urging, congressmen asked the CRS to get the manual. The CRS asked the ATF to produce the manual. And they hit a wall.
Then something ominous happened. For several weeks, the CRS, urged on by a frantic Justice Department, planned to bury this information.
Why? Because these revelations could potentially overturn hundreds, even thousands, of criminal prosecutions of innocent gun owners, going back decades.
But YOU kept pushing. And you did it on your own.
Finally the CRS had no choice but to reveal the truth: the ATF simply "makes it up as they go along."
WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS
The CRS memo changes nothing by itself. It has no legal force. But it is the first light Congress has shone on the ATF in 23 years. It is a _beginning_. It is a tool concerned gun owners -- and defense attorneys -- can use.
It's also a demonstration of the truth of two well-known quotations about the power of the grassroots.
"When I feel the heat, I see the light." -- Sen. Everett Dirksen
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that can." -- Margaret Mead
Now, what the future holds is, in part, up to you. Take action!
1) READ the CRS report.
2) SHARE IT. Circulate the link to it on email lists. Post the link on your blog. Let the world know. Think of two dozen -- or a hundred -- friends who need to see the report and share it with them.
3) ASK QUESTIONS. "How can I get more gun-rights groups involved in this?" "When is Congress going to curb the ATF?" "What can I do about it?" "What should ALL gun owners do about it?" "What can defense lawyers do with this report?" "Do I know any lawyers or abused gun owners who should get a copy of this?"
4) BUILD FORCES to demand that this report be acted upon and not ignored.
The CRS report isn't dramatic. The language is calm and legalistic. It has no force in law. The drama comes when this report inspires OUTRAGE and ACTION.
Thanks to Len Savage, JPFO, and a few hundred gun owners, you now have proof that backs what abused gun owners have been shouting all these years.
Now ... run with it.
If American gun owners take this memo and demand action upon it, this little report will be bigger than the recent pro-gun vote in Brazil, bigger than forcing FEMA to allow firearms into refugee settlements. This has the potential to lead to the dismantling of one of the worst agencies of the federal government.
Even if it doesn't lead to the end of the ATF, it could still stop the ruin of thousands of gun owners' lives and the abuse of millions of gun owners' rights.
In a corollary to Everett Dirksen's famous remark, we always say "Attack their pension to get their attention." ATF agents are just working men and women who want to make a living and retire comfortably. Threatening their security is the best way to force them to behave.
And make no mistake. Despite the polite language, the revelations in this report are a major threat to ATF power.
Now ... our next step is to make sure the nobody tolerates ATF abuses. We must keep the light shining on the CRS report until every defense lawyer, judge, and leader in the land is aware of it.
Then we must absolutely refuse to tolerate anyone who tolerates ATF abuses.
Finally, after decades, WE, the American gun owners, are in a position to take initiative and control.
Will you stand with JPFO and Len Savage? Or will you let the ATF get away with its abuses when the power to stop them has finally been placed in your hands? Your freedom is up to you.
The Liberty Crew
http://www.freemarketnews.com/Analysis/105/2781/2005-11-01.asp?nid=2781&wid=105
ding ding ding
You got it!
Notice how they cleverly left out the 'designed solely and exclusively' part in the next paragraph of the letter!
They had to conveniently leave out that a shoelace was designed to tie shoes.
Your tax dollars at work- but really, what did you expect of them?
C-
Devonai said:
You got it!
Notice how they cleverly left out the 'designed solely and exclusively' part in the next paragraph of the letter!
They had to conveniently leave out that a shoelace was designed to tie shoes.
Your tax dollars at work- but really, what did you expect of them?
C-
Carl N. Brown
Member
That shoestring machinegun conversion looks like my
improvised shoestring inside-waistband pistol holster
and like a short version of my AR7 shoestring carry sling.
I guess I'll have to make replacements out of parachute
cords. I'll be legal 'til someone makes a prachute cord
machinegun conversion.
Gun control is about criminalizing people for owning things,
not for doing harmful actions.
By The Way, does this remind anyone of Bela Lugosi's
immortal line in Ed Wood's Glen or Glenda: "Pull the string!
Pull the string!"???
improvised shoestring inside-waistband pistol holster
and like a short version of my AR7 shoestring carry sling.
I guess I'll have to make replacements out of parachute
cords. I'll be legal 'til someone makes a prachute cord
machinegun conversion.
Gun control is about criminalizing people for owning things,
not for doing harmful actions.
By The Way, does this remind anyone of Bela Lugosi's
immortal line in Ed Wood's Glen or Glenda: "Pull the string!
Pull the string!"???
TRLaye
Member
Shoestring trigger
I must be missing something here.
The rifle will not fire again until the trigger is reset. This is done by allowing the trigger to move forward when the string slacks with the bolt to the rear which then resets the trigger so another pull is required.
All I see this contraption doing is that the bolt pulls the trigger instead of the human (assumed) holding it. It is still one shot for one trigger pull. Therefore not an automatic which is continous fire with ONE trigger pull.
One shot with each trigger pull is not, by ATF definition and automatic firearm.
But then there is logic and commonsense and gov't logic. Sorry I got confused.
Tom
I must be missing something here.
The rifle will not fire again until the trigger is reset. This is done by allowing the trigger to move forward when the string slacks with the bolt to the rear which then resets the trigger so another pull is required.
All I see this contraption doing is that the bolt pulls the trigger instead of the human (assumed) holding it. It is still one shot for one trigger pull. Therefore not an automatic which is continous fire with ONE trigger pull.
One shot with each trigger pull is not, by ATF definition and automatic firearm.
But then there is logic and commonsense and gov't logic. Sorry I got confused.
Tom
Here's the funny part: Since you pull on the ring and not the trigger, the ring becomes the new "trigger" and the trigger itself becomes sort of an auxiliary sear.
Thus, in the ATF's eyes, the trigger you're pulling on is depressed once and the gun keeps running.
Many machine guns work on the same principle, where (usually) the closing bolt trips an auto-sear which drops the hammer again. The shoestring just brings the action to the outside of the gun.
- Status
