ATF keeping copies of 4473's

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Twiki357

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I was in my local pawn shop this afternoon. Got a nice M&P K frame five inch barrel pre model 10 five screw.

I was talking to the owner while the clerk was inputting the 4473 data into his computerized "Bound book" from the 4473 that I filled out. He said that when the ATF shows up for their periodic audit, they have him just download his 4473/book data onto a flash drive or stand there while he prints all of them out. Then they just take the flash drive or print outs with them. I commented that as far as I know, that is illegal and they are not allowed to take the records of his sales (4473's) with them, only audit them on site. All I got was a shrug of the shoulders and his response that when the ATF says they want it, he gives it to them for fear of loosing his FFL.

I would like to hear what some of you think of this and if any of the FFL's on here have had similar encounters and how they handled it.
 
I will check with my good friend but I think this is illegal due to the fact they would be making a "register" of the 4473's. Probably doing it though. I'll ask my friend because I know he just had an audit recently.

Bill
 
If this really is happening, and if it is indeed illegal, do you think someone will ever try and make a court case out of it?
 
Illegal???? If he closes up shop all the forms must be sent to the NTC/ATF anyhow.
 
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Given the current news items involving federal overreach and coverups, do you think ATF has any interest in following the law?
 
Given the current news items involving federal overreach and coverups, do you think ATF has any interest in following the law?
I hate conspiracy theories like poison...except the fun ones (JFK back in the 80s etc)!

However, I am afraid even I have to agree 100% with this statement. The government seems to be doing whatever it wants covertly. Sad times.
 
Given the current news items involving federal overreach and coverups, do you think ATF has any interest in following the law?
It is in fact a violation of federal law for the ATF to gather 4473 data from dealers. They do anyway, as you can see.

ATF has a long history of doing as much as they can get away with, with no regard for laws or regulations.
 
Two men in business suits, hip holster Glocks, and military haircuts walk into a popular gun store in Hoover, AL to walk out a few minutes later with a loaded briefcase. Now I am not a conspiracy theorist, I am just observant. Does it happen? Yup. Is it illegal? Yup. Do I have stock in Reynolds wrap? Yup. Well under a false name.
 
Are all federal agents required to personally show you their warrants, or just the ones in Hoover, AL?

They are allowed one warrant-less search a year. However, looking through 5300.4 and 5300.5 I still cannot find any info regarding copies of their forms being illegal.. Anyone want to help me out with proof other than comments on the internet board. (no offense)
 
Maybe because AZ gets extra scrutiny from the Feds since the Fast and Furious scandal. Still illegal, but we know the Feds don't care about constitutional rights.
 
I hate conspiracy theories like poison...except the fun ones (JFK back in the 80s etc)!

However, I am afraid even I have to agree 100% with this statement. The government seems to be doing whatever it wants covertly. Sad times.

The 80's ?
 
ATF has been revoking home FFL's, locally (Central IL), for minor infractions on 4473.. One guy about 10 miles from me had 3 mistakes on his books from *14 years* ago when they audited him (for the first time ever) this year. Poof. No more FFL.

They seem to be leaving the shops alone for now.

I was thinking about getting an FFL again .. but .. risk vs. reward...
 
I see quite a few electronic 4473 shops lately and wondered how data was secured and backed up. With the heavy responsibility on the FFL I would assume they are storing away from the actual laptop on the counter so with conventional wisdom, given the times, this info is transfered digitally and vulnerable to the same exposures that other transactions are.
Couple that with digital background checks and store security cameras and you have registration with face recognition back up.
Maybe that is a stretch today but certainly not tomorrow.
Anyone know what the ATF protocols are for the electronic 4473?
 
They are allowed one warrant-less search a year. However, looking through 5300.4 and 5300.5 I still cannot find any info regarding copies of their forms being illegal.. Anyone want to help me out with proof other than comments on the internet board. (no offense)

Not =search=, =inspection=.
 
If the shop or even the general area is subject to an on-going investigation of suspected straw purchasers/purchasers for resale w/o an FFL, ATF could be collecting 4473s as part of a specific investigation into purchase patterns.

Read the OIG Review on Fast and Furious. In particular, what the Tucson ATF field agents and Phoenix FFL dealers told the OIG about how straw purchasers buying in resell numbers were handled before Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious.
 
fellas, you guys didn't realize in the past few weeks that :
you no longer have civil liberties

they want registration how else will they find you when they come take them away, after the NSA stuff this week I have zero doubt the government will goto any length to control the us population.
 
herrwalther Two men in business suits, hip holster Glocks....
If they were armed they were not Industry Operations Investigators, but Special Agents.

ATF IOI= beancounter who does compliance inspections
ATF Special Agent= cop who investigates violation of Federal firearms law.



tarosean .....They are allowed one warrant-less search a year.
Wrong.
You are confusing a search vs a compliance inspection. There is a HUGE difference. A compliance inspection is strictly limited to a review of the licensees bound book, 4473's, multiple sale forms and firearm inventory.....thats all. A compliance inspection is conducted by an IOI and does not give him the ability to search any part of your business. If sufficient evidence of criminal wrongdoing is uncovered during the compliance inspection, a search warrant may be sought to allow a Special Agent to search your business. This will allow ATF to find the machine guns you have been building for the Cartel.;)



Trent ATF has been revoking home FFL's, locally (Central IL), for minor infractions on 4473.. One guy about 10 miles from me had 3 mistakes on his books from *14 years* ago when they audited him (for the first time ever) this year. Poof. No more FFL.
I call horsehockey.
A "minor" infraction is what exactly? Date customer signed 4473 doesn't match bound book? Transposed digits on a serial number? Missing 4473? Unsigned 4473? Forgot to record an entry in the bound book? Forgot to record a firearm in the bound book and also forgot to have the customer fill out a 4473? How about forgetting to do a NICS check? Forgetting to record the NICS NTN on a 4473 isn't minor by a long shot.

While ATF considers ANY error, ommission or mistake as "willful".......three "minor" errors such as transposed digits or conflicting dates would not typically be cause for revocation over a fourteen year period. ATF is very good about telling dealers how to avoid mistakes and even does a presentation at SHOT on compliance inspections. Actual revocations are extremely rare and only for serious violations or repeated violations after a warning letter.


X-Rap I see quite a few electronic 4473 shops lately and wondered how data was secured and backed up.....Anyone know what the ATF protocols are for the electronic 4473?
The Electronic 4473 is only form filling software.....it does not transmit anything to ATF.
 
The Electronic 4473 is only form filling software.....it does not transmit anything to ATF.

I have no doubt or quarrel with the intent of the software, my question is how is data transferred to storage?
Do the dealers take the chance of having the unit stolen or crashed and the records lost?
If so what are the repercussions regarding the ATF and their FFL's if they somehow loose the data.
If there is a digital transfer then it is as vulnerable as our emails or phone calls with todays data gathering.
 
My brother (who works at Wally World) said ATF on average arrive once a month and leave with much more information than they brought. He couldn't/wouldn't talk further.
 
Them REQUIRING copies is illegal without a subpena for each one/person, pretty sure if he voluntarily gives it to them it's not though.
 
We are a firearms refinishing business located in Arizona. We don't stock firearms for sale but do a few transfers for friends. Our FFL is primarily for gunsmithing and shipping/receiving. The initial inspection of the business premises was about twenty years ago and went without a hitch. In 2010, we got our first ever annual inspection. It also went without a hitch except for a couple of minor paperwork mistakes and one semi major issue: Our company is a Limited Liabilty Company. (LLC) Our FFL at that time did not show the LLC in the name section so I had to get a new FFL with the correct business name.

Since that was our first ever compliance inspection, I asked numerous questions of the ATF Inspector. One of those was: Is the format that I'm using in our Bound Book correct? The info, the columms, the way I'm doing it, etc? Not a problem says the Inspector. All of the info is here and understandable. He did not ask for copies of 4473's, not did he make copies of the Bound Book, etc. It was just a simple check of the paperwork, check the premises for security and check the Bound Book against the firearms in the shop getting refinished. I filed the paperwork for a new FFL with our proper company name and that was it.

Skip to May, 2013: I get an unannounced compliance inspection. We'll call her Alice. She pretty much shuts us down for the entire day. We are a firearms refinishing business. That means chemicals, smells, vapors, etc. She has allergies! I can't even smoke in my own shop. Now at this point, I'm still going out of my way to be nice to her so I comply with her requests. She makes copies of every single 4473 and every page of my Bound Book since 2010. She brought in her own copy machine! After pretty much all day, she gives me the report: I have hundreds of errors in my paperwork! I'm stunned!

It turns out the errors are a very few minor things on my 4473's (No ethnicity!) and hundreds in my Bound Book. The format is wrong because it's missing a columm for type of firearm. (Rifle/pistol, etc) She tells me I have to re-write the entire Bound Book back to 2010....by hand since we don't do a computerized Bound Book. I explain that the Inspector in 2010 approved that format. She tells me that he was from out of State and they do things differently in other States. She tells me she will be back next week for a follow-up inspection and leaves...with copies of all my 4473's and my entire Bound Book back to 2010.

I spend days re-writing the entire Bound Book but I get it completed. She shows up, looks at it and states that it's all wrong and has to be done over again. Apparently, even though we don't do sales...only transfers for a few freinds...all gunsmithing transfers have to be in one book and the permanent transfers in a seperate book. It's all wrong! Furthermore, I can NOT have my personal firearms in the business shop for cleaning, etc. Yeah, I got dinged for that to.

Besides owning/operating Mac's Shootin' Irons, I work in law enforcement, almost three decades now. Over the years, I've developed different "personalities" for different situations. Submissive (I'm getting my @&& chewed on by a supervisor), professionally polite (Dealing with the public. Don't give them anything to use against you) to what I call my Officer Attitude. (You ARE going to do what I tell you to do). Up to this point in dealing with Alice the ATF Compliance Inspector, I have been in a mix of submissive and professionally polite.

When she told me that I had to do the entire Bound Book over...by hand...again, I snapped and went directly to Officer Attitude. I stepped close to her and said "NO! I demand a meeting with your supervisor. You are abusing your authority. Tell your boss to call me". She practically ran out of my shop. A week later, I have a meeting with the area ATF supervisor.

He explains the intent of the Compliance Inspections. It's not to punish you for mistakes, it's to help you not make mistakes in the future. They're not interested in fixing past mistakes :what:but stop making the same ones. I ask then why did I have to re-write my entire Bound Book? He says Huh? I see the embarrased red start to creep up Alice the Inspector's neck. I say why do I have to re-write the entire book again? He says "What are you talking about"? I explain what Alice the Inspector has required me to do. He tells her that they'll discuss that later. He tells me that I don't have to do the books over, just start new ones from that date forward and save the old ones. I ask about having my personal firearms in the shop for cleaning, etc. He says "Yes. Why not?" I tell him that Alice the Inspector dinged me on that too. He tells her they'll have a private meeting about it all later. The red is all of the way up her cheeks now. :neener:Yeah, I got it all in writing.

What I got from all of this, is that Alice the Compliance Inspector was in fact abusing her authority and making me do stuff that I didn't have to do. My impression from her was that she was afraid of firearms and had zero firearms handling knowledge. During the course of her "inspection" she handled several firearms without clearing and muzzle swept me at least four times. I knew they were all unloaded but she didn't. No, ATF never returned the copies that they made of my 4473's or my Bound Books. I'm pretty sure I will get another inspection next year. I hope it's Alice the Compliance Inspector. I know she'll be after my blood but I plan on business as usual. That means I will smoke in my own shop, I wll refinish firearms and I will play my 60's and 70's rock and roll music. If she has to work in the carport because of her allergies, I'll supply her with an extension cord for her copy machine! Keep yer powder dry, Mac.
Mac's Shootin' Irons
 
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