ATF keeping copies of 4473's

[Deanimator]

The FBI got caught saving info on "proceeds" when NICS first came into use............and Congress slapped them pretty hard. Whether they continue to store ifo is anyones guess, but it is illegal to do so.

"Slapped" them HOW?

The way that the IRS has been "slapped" for a series of FELONIES?

The BATFE has viewed itself as above the law for a VERY long time. From the "how to lie under oath" video, to the "Good Old Boy's Roundup".

 

[dogtown tom]

HKGuns Sounds like we have at least one, maybe two ATF agents in this thread.

Really? Who would that be?

There are at least three licensed dealers who have posted.

 

[Mac's]

dogtown tom:

The bottom line here is that there a few decent ATF Compliance Inspectors out there but most of them are other than decent. "Other" is defined as: Ignorant, unsafe, wannabe cops, supporting their own agenda, supporting somebody elses agenda, wanting to score points by whacking some Dealer, etc.

You are either complying with the regs or you aren't. There is due process and a method to appeal any ATF licensing revocation. .... Whether the dealer is honest has no bearing on anything, complying with Federal law and ATF regulations is what matters.

REALLY? Do you really want to go there? Part of the problem with that statement is that the ATF changes the laws pretty much whenever they want to. For example: Here in Arizona, ATF encouraged gun smugglers to buy weapons from local gun shops...lots of weapons... like in the thousands. Then ATF facilitated the transport of those weapons to south of the border, where they were used to murder a lot of people. Some of those weapons came back north of the border and murdered Americans. The end result of all of that? Two of the ATF supervisors were promoted and given pay raises. One of them was allowed to retire with a full pension. Then the ATF tried to bust the shop that sold most of the weapons. Oops! It turns out that the shop was wired for video and sound, including the phone used by the owner when he spoke with the ATF Agent about the questionable sales...multiple times! ATF: "Yeah, we know about it. Make the sales." Owner: "I don't want to. This is a bad deal". ATF Agent: "Make the sales or else". Now, the Dealers in Arizona have to file extra forms everytime some somebody buys two or more of a certain type of rifle. That's a new law that ATF made up as a result of the Gunwalker scandal.

Do you really think that

Whether the dealer is honest has no bearing on anything, complying with Federal law and ATF regulations is what matters.

Ask the Dealers who have been abused, lied to or shut down because of some ATF BS. I was ordered by a ATF Compliance Inspector to re-write my entire Bound Book by hand and have it completed by five days. I did it but it turns out she had no authority or justification to make that. She forced me to do it because she wanted to.
Ask the Dealers who have been falsely investigated and had their entire inventory of firearms thrown into metal barrels during the course of that investigation. Ask them if they ever got paid for the damage. Ask Brian Terry what he thinks about ATF helping criminals to get semi auto weapons. Oh wait! You can't ask him. He was murdered by one those ATF weapons.

The ATF is NOT our friend but you sure do seem to think so. You have defended them at every turn, quoted their rules and regs, etc. No, I'm not accusing you of anything. What I am saying though, is be careful that your faith and loyalty doesn't get you into hot water.

There is due process and a method to appeal any ATF licensing revocation. .... Whether the dealer is honest has no bearing on anything, complying with Federal law and ATF regulations is what matters.

Yup! But back it up with witnesses, video and audio recordings, etc. Keep yer powder dry, Mac.

 

[dogtown tom]

Mac's dogtown tom:

The bottom line here is that there a few decent ATF Compliance Inspectors out there but most of them are other than decent. "Other" is defined as: Ignorant, unsafe, wannabe cops, supporting their own agenda, supporting somebody elses agenda, wanting to score points by whacking some Dealer, etc.

Do you have a source for that statistic?

REALLY? Do you really want to go there? Part of the problem with that statement is that the ATF changes the laws pretty much whenever they want to.

Seriously?
ATF doesn't change laws, Congress does. ATF (like all federal agencies) formulates "regulations".

For example: Here in Arizona, ATF encouraged gun smugglers to buy weapons from local gun shops...lots of weapons... like in the thousands. Then ATF facilitated the transport of those weapons to south of the border, where they were used to murder a lot of people. Some of those weapons came back north of the border and murdered Americans. The end result of all of that?

And that WAS NOT the decision of IOI's but from the Enforcement side. IOI's didn't have anything to do with that.

Now, the Dealers in Arizona have to file extra forms everytime some somebody buys two or more of a certain type of rifle. That's a new law that ATF made up as a result of the Gunwalker scandal.

Not just Arizona, but California, New Mexico and Texas. I filled out two of them last night.

Ask the Dealers who have been abused, lied to or shut down because of some ATF BS. I was ordered by a ATF Compliance Inspector to re-write my entire Bound Book by hand and have it completed by five days. I did it but it turns out she had no authority or justification to make that. She forced me to do it because she wanted to.

Really? She "forced you"?
Seriously, if you allow yourself to be railroaded by an IOI who doesn't know the regs then you have no business being a dealer. One quick call to her supervisor would have stopped that nonsense pronto.

Ask the Dealers who have been falsely investigated and had their entire inventory of firearms thrown into metal barrels during the course of that investigation. Ask them if they ever got paid for the damage.

Care to cite an actual case? And again, it isn't an IOI tossing guns in barrels is it?

Ask Brian Terry what he thinks about ATF helping criminals to get semi auto weapons. Oh wait! You can't ask him. He was murdered by one those ATF weapons.

Oh good grief.
Throwing Brian Terry's name out as some kind of blanket indictment of what IOI's do is just full on stupid. IOI's had NOTHING to do with his death. The botched guwalking operation was clearly run by ATF Enforcement.....not Industry Operations. If you have some sort of insider knowledge you better spill it because no one else has.

The ATF is NOT our friend but you sure do seem to think so.

Nothing I've posted would give a sane person the idea that I consider the ATF as a friend.........nice putdown though. ATF is an agency of MY government, just like the IRS, Social Security Administration, my local PD, my local school district..............I don't take crap from them and neither should anyone else. I make it a priority to know ATF regs BETTER than my IOI. When he tells me "blah, blah, blah" I ask for the regulation that says that.....and he provides it. Any IOI that invents a regulation damn well better be prepared to back it up or I'll be on the phone to his supervisor.

I have yet to encounter an ATF employee who has showed anything less than complete professionalism. Every IOI that I have met was friendly, polite and competent. Visit the FFL Only forum and you'll discover that MY experience is the norm rather than the exception.

You have defended them at every turn, quoted their rules and regs, etc. No, I'm not accusing you of anything. What I am saying though, is be careful that your faith and loyalty doesn't get you into hot water.

You consider me as defending them, I consider what I posted as an explanation. You didn't read the regs. If you had you would have known immediately that your bound book was not in compliance. Me pointing out that it was YOUR MISTAKE isn't the same as me defending ATF.

 

[crazy-mp]

Visit the FFL Only forum and you'll discover that MY experience is the norm rather than the exception.

Most of the people here can't because they don't have a FFL

 

[dogtown tom]

crazy-mp Most of the people here can't because they don't have a FFL

Which is the point of an "FFL Only" forum.

 

[Deanimator]

Throwing Brian Terry's name out as some kind of blanket indictment of what IOI's do is just full on stupid.

What happened to Brian Terry is a damning indictment of the BATFE AS AN ORGANIZATION. It is hopelessly tainted, and always has been.

Any government agency which puts out an official training video on how to lie under oath simply cannot be trusted.

 

[x_wrench]

the word ILLEGAL, means as much to this administration as the word "ice cube" does to the Eskimos. they could care less. yes, this administration would like NOTHING more than to come knocking door to door, to collect every firearm ever made. legal or not.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Part of not being "pushed around" by people in authority with an agenda is knowing the limitations not only of their authority and job, but your own. And some common sense stuff.

After having spent 20 years in the Navy, I'll tell you right now that ANYBODY who tells me that I have to "rewrite" ANY kind of historical official paperwork will get the patented Chief's "Stare-of-Rapt-Attention", calmly delivered over a piping hot cuppa joe, followed by the patented one-word response of "Noted" when they're done talking to me.

*NOTE*- This pose, and the calmly delivered "Noted" response, is a carefully calculated and skillfully delivered response designed to drive egotistical, self-important Junior Officers utterly insane. It very clearly says "I've heard everything you've said, have determined that it's meaningless bull-fertilizer, and I have absolutely no intention whatsoever of doing what you want." Those who've successfully graduated from Junior Officer ranks to the more senior officer ranks have usually been weaned of much stupidity because of this.

"Rewriting" the books leaves you open for accusations of cooking the books, not to mention SCADS of unintended transpositional errors in copying data. And during a FORMAL investigation, "unintended errors" carrys little weight as an excuse...especially when it's found out that you rewrote historical paperwork. Even if no errors are found, rewriting official historical records smells of "coverup".

Dealing with someone in a position of authority is scary...and yes, sometimes they have frightening power over one's life and livelyhood. Get a lawyer under your belt if you have to. Know the limitations and, when unreasonable "requests" are made, contact authorities in charge.

And document the bejeebers out of everything. If it's "official", then an "official" documentation of everything shouldn't EVER be a problem. It's pretty amusing how many people in positions of authority are reluctant to put things like this in writing, with their signature attached to it.

 

[Sniper66]

I know it is easy to believe in the "bad apple" reason to account for bureaucratic abuse. But, if you can step back and take a broader look, what Mac is encountering is the natural and inevitable result of big government and the proliferation of "inspections". All of us are victims of government intrusion. The ATF and the governmental bodies that drive them have succeeded in reducing the number of FFLs by some 75-80% over the last 15-20 years. Accident? I think not. The goal was to reduce the number of "kitchen table" gun sellers so they can control a much smaller number. Has it reduced gun violence? Not a chance.

 

[dogtown tom]

Sniper66.......the proliferation of "inspections".

Seriously?
Please explain this. ATF doesn't have enough IOI's to inspect every licensee even every three years.
Compliance inspections are limited by Federal law to ONE per year. Few licensees have them that often, and most do not have an inspection for YEARS. I went three years before my first compliance inspection.......and the IOI was here for less than two hours. My last one was September 2010.

Some "proliferation" indeed.

Sniper66 .....The goal was to reduce the number of "kitchen table" gun sellers....

The myth that will not die.:banghead:
There have always been more "kitchen table" dealers than there are "storefront" dealers. Anyone who can legally conduct business at their proposed licensed premises WILL be issued an FFL. ATF doesn't give a rats hiney if your business is from your home or a storefront. I know.....I got my first FFL issued while renting a one bedroom apartment.

Do the teeniest bit of research and you'll discover that those dealers who "lost" their FFL during the Clinton administration WERE NEVER ELIGIBLE to begin with. Given the opportunity to "get legal" (comply with zoning, get a sales tax permit, business license, etc) few chose to do so and voluntarily gave up their license. For those that lied on their application or were operating illegally or using the FFL for enhancing their personal collection to complain about ATF following or not following the law is hypocrisy.

Of course, its faaaar easier to blame ATF and Clinton than to man up and accept the reality that you should never have been issued an FFL to begin with.

ATF regulations aren't hidden, secret or written in code and are fairly easy to understand.........if you take the time to read them. You would be amazed at how many dealers NEVER read the ATF FFL Newsletter, the US Code, the Open Letters to FFL's, and most disturbing.................never read the instructions that are on each Form 4473.

ATF does enough stupid, illegal stuff to get upset about without need for inventing or propagating myths.

 

[TheOld Man]

So why do we have to show ID and drivers license numbers now when we buy ammo? Just in the last month or so...

 

[Deanimator]

ATF regulations aren't hidden, secret or written in code and are fairly easy to understand

So, tell the class the SPECIFIC number of sales which puts one "in the business of" selling firearms.

Years ago, "Cleveland Scene" did a story on that little scam. When the militantly anti-gun "Scene" thinks the BATF(E) is arbitrary and thuggish, that doesn't leave its defenders much room for spin...

 

[itsa pain]

dogtown tom why don't you ask the survivors of ruby ridge or Waco what they think of the BATF. it is real funny when you say you are not defending them. I think you may have a case of Stockholm Syndrome

 

[Al Thompson]

Folks, I'm going to close this one. Starting to be some bickering over something that only the ATF truly knows.