ATF keeping copies of 4473's

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Mac's The format is wrong because it's missing a columm for type of firearm. (Rifle/pistol, etc)
"Type of firearm" has been a requirement since 1968. ATF regulations even show the required columns for your bound book:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=2d7f431c2f167b850ac14500ad1939b9&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.8.1.6&idno=27
§ 478.125 Record of receipt and disposition.
(e) Firearms receipt and disposition by dealers. Except as provided in § 478.124a with respect to alternate records for the receipt and disposition of firearms by dealers, each licensed dealer shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms. In addition, before commencing or continuing a firearms business, each licensed dealer shall inventory the firearms possessed for such business and shall record same in the record required by this paragraph. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a firearm shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm. The sale or other disposition of a firearm shall be recorded by the licensed dealer not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to a nonlicensee, the firearms transaction record, Form 4473, obtained by the licensed dealer shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from the licensee's Form 4473 file and be readily available for inspection. When such disposition is made to a licensee, the commercial record of the transaction shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from other commercial documents maintained by the licensed dealer, and be readily available for inspection. The record shall show the date of the sale or other disposition of each firearm, the name and address of the person to whom the firearm is transferred, or the name and license number of the person to whom transferred if such person is a licensee, or the firearms transaction record, Form 4473, serial number if the licensed dealer transferring the firearm serially numbers the Forms 4473 and files them numerically. The format required for the record of receipt and disposition of firearms is as follows:


Firearms Acquisition and Disposition Record




Description of firearm

Manufacturer and/or Importer
Model
Serial No.
Type
Caliber or gauge
Receipt Date
Name and address or name and license No.


Disposition Date
Name
Address or license No. if licensee, or Form 4473 Serial No. if Forms 4473 filed numerically






I explain that the Inspector in 2010 approved that format. She tells me that he was from out of State and they do things differently in other States.
It's Federal law and ATF regulation...........your state has no bearing.
 
dogtown tom:

I'm not denying that the mistakes were mine but I think you might have missed the point. First, the previous inspector approved my format in writing. By not listing it as a mistake in his report, he approved it. It's called "approval by omission". In this case, he made a mistake by not pointing out my mistake. No, that doesn't make my mistake go away but it explains why I continued making the same mistake.

Second, I'm fully aware that the BATF is a Federal agency. All rules, regulations, etc. should be standardized, regardless of the State. Alice the Inspector was the one who said "they do things differently in other States".

My point was that Alice the Compliance Inspector was abusing her authority by:
1...Making up rules. (No personal firearms in the business shop)
2...Basically shutting down my operations because of her allergies.
3...Making copies of all 4473's and my Bound Book without permision or a warrant.
4...Forcing me to re-write my entire Bound Book when per her supervisor, I was NOT REQUIRED TO DO THAT.
5...Wanting me to re-write it again!

Furthermore, she was basically ignorant about firearms. No, I don't think a Compliance Inspector has to be a firearms expert but they should at least know proper safe handling. Alice the Inspector was unsafe with firearms. No if's ands or buts! She didn't clear any firearms and she muzzle swept me several times.

I now have new Bound Books..one for temp. transfers and one for perm. transfers. The old ones are filed away...along with the audio and video recordings of Alice the Compliance Inspector being unsafe and abusing her authority. Yes, the mistakes were on me but the abuse was all on her. That's my point: Some low level, rookie inspector thinks they can just abuse Dealers with no repercussions because they are from ATF and must be feared! I'm not sure what scared Alice the Inspector more: Me jumping in her face or the thought of having to explain her actions to her Supervisor. Keep yer powder dry, Mac.
 
Of course they do and yes its illegal,they are the atf though and don't care what the law says when its them breaking it. I lived in AZ 5 years ago when they were running guns to mexico and they did whatever they wanted to,argue and your out of business is the way they work. Its the federal government,they know the average citizen cant afford to fight them assuming the person is willing to even deal with the harassment that will come from it.
 
My LGS is awesome in this regard. He won't leave them alone with his books, only gives them access to one book at a time and he tells them that he wants copies of anything they write down (which leads them to not write much down).
 
he tells them that he wants copies of anything they write down (which leads them to not write much down)

What does he do if they refuse to give him a copy of what they write down?

There is no requirement at all for the ATF to give him a copy of anything.

If I were an ATF inspector, I'd tell him to go pound sand with that attitude and start writing notes on anything I could think of. What's the LGS going to do about it, refuse the inspection and lose his FFL?

He may make BS claims to his customers, but it would be interesting to be a fly on the wall if he actually tried to pull something like that with the ATF.
 
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We are a firearms refinishing business located in Arizona. We don't stock firearms for sale but do a few transfers for friends. Our FFL is primarily for gunsmithing and shipping/receiving. The initial inspection of the business premises was about twenty years ago and went without a hitch. In 2010, we got our first ever annual inspection. It also went without a hitch except for a couple of minor paperwork mistakes and one semi major issue: Our company is a Limited Liabilty Company. (LLC) Our FFL at that time did not show the LLC in the name section so I had to get a new FFL with the correct business name.

Since that was our first ever compliance inspection, I asked numerous questions of the ATF Inspector. One of those was: Is the format that I'm using in our Bound Book correct? The info, the columms, the way I'm doing it, etc? Not a problem says the Inspector. All of the info is here and understandable. He did not ask for copies of 4473's, not did he make copies of the Bound Book, etc. It was just a simple check of the paperwork, check the premises for security and check the Bound Book against the firearms in the shop getting refinished. I filed the paperwork for a new FFL with our proper company name and that was it.

Skip to May, 2013: I get an unannounced compliance inspection. We'll call her Alice. She pretty much shuts us down for the entire day. We are a firearms refinishing business. That means chemicals, smells, vapors, etc. She has allergies! I can't even smoke in my own shop. Now at this point, I'm still going out of my way to be nice to her so I comply with her requests. She makes copies of every single 4473 and every page of my Bound Book since 2010. She brought in her own copy machine! After pretty much all day, she gives me the report: I have hundreds of errors in my paperwork! I'm stunned!

It turns out the errors are a very few minor things on my 4473's (No ethnicity!) and hundreds in my Bound Book. The format is wrong because it's missing a columm for type of firearm. (Rifle/pistol, etc) She tells me I have to re-write the entire Bound Book back to 2010....by hand since we don't do a computerized Bound Book. I explain that the Inspector in 2010 approved that format. She tells me that he was from out of State and they do things differently in other States. She tells me she will be back next week for a follow-up inspection and leaves...with copies of all my 4473's and my entire Bound Book back to 2010.

I spend days re-writing the entire Bound Book but I get it completed. She shows up, looks at it and states that it's all wrong and has to be done over again. Apparently, even though we don't do sales...only transfers for a few freinds...all gunsmithing transfers have to be in one book and the permanent transfers in a seperate book. It's all wrong! Furthermore, I can NOT have my personal firearms in the business shop for cleaning, etc. Yeah, I got dinged for that to.

Besides owning/operating Mac's Shootin' Irons, I work in law enforcement, almost three decades now. Over the years, I've developed different "personalities" for different situations. Submissive (I'm getting my @&& chewed on by a supervisor), professionally polite (Dealing with the public. Don't give them anything to use against you) to what I call my Officer Attitude. (You ARE going to do what I tell you to do). Up to this point in dealing with Alice the ATF Compliance Inspector, I have been in a mix of submissive and professionally polite.

When she told me that I had to do the entire Bound Book over...by hand...again, I snapped and went directly to Officer Attitude. I stepped close to her and said "NO! I demand a meeting with your supervisor. You are abusing your authority. Tell your boss to call me". She practically ran out of my shop. A week later, I have a meeting with the area ATF supervisor.

He explains the intent of the Compliance Inspections. It's not to punish you for mistakes, it's to help you not make mistakes in the future. They're not interested in fixing past mistakes :what:but stop making the same ones. I ask then why did I have to re-write my entire Bound Book? He says Huh? I see the embarrased red start to creep up Alice the Inspector's neck. I say why do I have to re-write the entire book again? He says "What are you talking about"? I explain what Alice the Inspector has required me to do. He tells her that they'll discuss that later. He tells me that I don't have to do the books over, just start new ones from that date forward and save the old ones. I ask about having my personal firearms in the shop for cleaning, etc. He says "Yes. Why not?" I tell him that Alice the Inspector dinged me on that too. He tells her they'll have a private meeting about it all later. The red is all of the way up her cheeks now. :neener:Yeah, I got it all in writing.

What I got from all of this, is that Alice the Compliance Inspector was in fact abusing her authority and making me do stuff that I didn't have to do. My impression from her was that she was afraid of firearms and had zero firearms handling knowledge. During the course of her "inspection" she handled several firearms without clearing and muzzle swept me at least four times. I knew they were all unloaded but she didn't. No, ATF never returned the copies that they made of my 4473's or my Bound Books. I'm pretty sure I will get another inspection next year. I hope it's Alice the Compliance Inspector. I know she'll be after my blood but I plan on business as usual. That means I will smoke in my own shop, I wll refinish firearms and I will play my 60's and 70's rock and roll music. If she has to work in the carport because of her allergies, I'll supply her with an extension cord for her copy machine! Keep yer powder dry, Mac.
Mac's Shootin' Irons
Quite a story. One wonders what special qualifications got Alice her job at the ATF...since her knowledge of firearms and the laws regulating them seem abysmal?
 
Quite a story. One wonders what special qualifications got Alice her job at the ATF...since her knowledge of firearms and the laws regulating them seem abysmal?

Yes, I agree. Quite illuminating. We need more big Government.
 
The two gun shops I worked at never had ATFE agents making copies and shutting business down, but I wasn't there 24/7. I can say the ATFE agents I DID deal with while there were polite and professional...15 years ago.
 
45_auto, isn't the bigger point here that in the beginning our government was here to serve us?

It still is. Real knowledge about what is and what isn't required of the ATF will go much further in protecting our rights than BS posts about an FFL telling the ATF that they have to give him a copy of anything they write down.
 
Does anyone really believe, since the NICS checks, that that info was erased the same day??? There has been a crack down on small dealers that have been in buisness for decades. The infractions: N,E,W,S (N. State St. being used abbreviated at the beginning of a street. AVE. or ST. being used for Avenue or Street. NY or USA. Common. One old dealer(late 70s/erly 80s) was targeted. A woman made a straw purchase for a felon boy friend. She filled out 4473 and passed the NICS. She was sold the gun. The boyfriend was picked up later and the ATF went after him and tried setting up stings. He told one guy repeatedly trying to sell a handgun to him. I know your the ATF. They came back with 6 agents into his 15x30 foot shop and searched. They found nothing wrong but one agent told the wife, who was there, we don't want someone his age selling guns. Well he went to the Federal building for 2 hearings and is now closed.
 
Scooter22 Does anyone really believe, since the NICS checks, that that info was erased the same day???
While Federal law requires that all "proceeds" be erased at the end of the NICS business day, "delays" are not erased until they become a proceed. Information from "Denied" transactions are kept permanently.

The FBI got caught saving info on "proceeds" when NICS first came into use............and Congress slapped them pretty hard. Whether they continue to store ifo is anyones guess, but it is illegal to do so.




There has been a crack down on small dealers that have been in buisness for decades. The infractions: N,E,W,S (N. State St. being used abbreviated at the beginning of a street. AVE. or ST. being used for Avenue or Street. NY or USA. Common.
Got a source for this claim?:scrutiny: because its malarky.
ATF has stated that commonly used abbreviations ARE ALLOWED......they even give an example on the 4473.

This is addressed in the November 2008 ATF FFL Newsletter:

FFL NEWSLETTER
ABBREVIATIONS
ATF has received a number of inquiries regarding the use of abbreviations on ATF Form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record) and in the acquisition and disposition (A&D) book entries. As a general rule, abbreviations should be avoided on Form 4473 or in entries in the A&D book. This is to avoid confusion or prevent providing an incomplete record. However, there are a number of abbreviations that are allowed.

The use of standard postal State abbreviations (i.e. AK, DE, VA, TX, etc.) or an easily and readily recognized abbreviation such as Mass. for Massachusetts is permitted. Additionally, the use of D.L. to denote “driver’s license” and O.P. to denote “operator’s permit” are also permitted. In general, if an abbreviation is legible and readily understood it would be acceptable. However, if the abbreviation is not understood, you will be told not to utilize it and continued use will result in either the issuance of a report of violation for the appropriate recordkeeping provision or other appropriate action.

As a rule of thumb, if you are unsure as to whether or not an abbreviation is readily understood, the abbreviation should not be used. Please keep in mind the importance of these records to law enforcement and the need to understand the abbreviations if you go out of business. It is important that the entries are written legibly and completely so everyone can understand them. ATF thanks you for your efforts.
 
I worked for a class 3 FFL right out of High School. Any of the FFL's posting in this thread that doesn't believe they will look for reasons to harass or run people out of the business needs to think again. Maybe your state has better agents at being polite , but the ones I have encountered weren't like that.

The guy I worked for got his start because the guy he worked for went to federal prison for 10 yrs. The guy that went to prison was an extremely talented smith and built someof the more famous movie props you have seen. At one time he had so many different makes and models of machine guns I couldn't even start to name them all. He went to prison for supposedly having a bootleg M16 out of a converted AR in his shop. There was no way that happened. Why would it? He had M16's like Carter had pills. Guess what happened to the guy I worked for? He went to federal prison for 10 yrs. Do you see a trend here?
 
If they were armed they were not Industry Operations Investigators, but Special Agents.

ATF IOI= beancounter who does compliance inspections
ATF Special Agent= cop who investigates violation of Federal firearms law.




Wrong.
You are confusing a search vs a compliance inspection. There is a HUGE difference. A compliance inspection is strictly limited to a review of the licensees bound book, 4473's, multiple sale forms and firearm inventory.....thats all. A compliance inspection is conducted by an IOI and does not give him the ability to search any part of your business. If sufficient evidence of criminal wrongdoing is uncovered during the compliance inspection, a search warrant may be sought to allow a Special Agent to search your business. This will allow ATF to find the machine guns you have been building for the Cartel.;)




I call horsehockey.
A "minor" infraction is what exactly? Date customer signed 4473 doesn't match bound book? Transposed digits on a serial number? Missing 4473? Unsigned 4473? Forgot to record an entry in the bound book? Forgot to record a firearm in the bound book and also forgot to have the customer fill out a 4473? How about forgetting to do a NICS check? Forgetting to record the NICS NTN on a 4473 isn't minor by a long shot.

While ATF considers ANY error, ommission or mistake as "willful".......three "minor" errors such as transposed digits or conflicting dates would not typically be cause for revocation over a fourteen year period. ATF is very good about telling dealers how to avoid mistakes and even does a presentation at SHOT on compliance inspections. Actual revocations are extremely rare and only for serious violations or repeated violations after a warning letter.



The Electronic 4473 is only form filling software.....it does not transmit anything to ATF.
it is easy to see who gets a govt check and who don't. so you are saying the govt is making it easier to get or have an FFL?
 
My LGS is awesome in this regard. He won't leave them alone with his books, only gives them access to one book at a time and he tells them that he wants copies of anything they write down (which leads them to not write much down).

This. Don't let them bully you around, know the laws (not by asking them) and stick to them. If they don't have a right to do something, don't let them.
 
dogtown tom:

In general, if an abbreviation is legible and readily understood it would be acceptable. However, if the abbreviation is not understood, you will be told not to utilize it and continued use will result in either the issuance of a report of violation for the appropriate recordkeeping provision or other appropriate action.

The ATF newsletter that you quoted from is pretty vague and can easily be misused by anybody with authority and that's the problem. For example: You use an abbreviation that you think is perfectly understandable. You get a compliance inspection. The inspector says "No problem" so you continue to use it for X number of years. Then you get another compliance inspection but that inspector says "Nope" and dings you for each and every time you used that abbreviation. Now you have hundreds of errors on your file.

Regarding the crackdown on small time FFL dealers...so called "Kitchen Table Dealers": You should really do some more research before calling malarky. Back in Clintons time, the ATF was instructed..allowed..encouraged (Take your pick!) to toughen up on FFL Holders. They did this in several ways. One was to "suggest" to local governments that they needed to tighten up on zoning and licensing laws.

Under President Clinton, the BATF has taken it upon itself to become the national enforcer of local zoning laws, state sales tax laws and state and local licensing laws. This is flatly unconstitutional. The federal government has no Constitutional authority to enforce local ordinances. In fact Article 1, Section 8 prohibits the federal government from usurping powers that belong to the states.
http://gunowners.org/op9509.htm

Just look at the statistics of how many FFL's have been run out of business by the ATF in the past ten years! Sure, some of them were crooked dealers but the majority of them were honest dealers who were cheated out. As far as getting copies of everything the ATF inspector writes down while he/she is doing a compliance inspection? I seriously doubt that somebody like Alice the Inspector would have voluntarily given me copies of anything. But, that's the major reason that I have my shop wired for sound and video. Legalities! Oh yeah! There's camera's aimed down directly at the bench top where "they" would do their paperwork.

The Compliance Inspectors may be freindly, dogtown tom, but that doesn't mean they are our freinds. At least nobody I know considers that to be true. Do you? Keep yer powder dry, Mac.
 
One problem is that BATFE, like other agencies, has had its budget cut at the same time the AG is demanding they do more inspections and try to put more dealers out of business. That means they transfer agents to firearms from alcohol, tobacco, explosives and other divisions. Those people get a quick briefing from a [usually] anti-gun DOJ type and go out to wreak havoc on gun dealers, making up laws, throwing fits, etc.

This kind of thing was done years ago until a few dealers caught on. When the Secretary of the Treasury was shown a video tape of one of his BATFE agents screaming, yelling, waving his gun around and trying to rape a gunshop customer, things changed pretty fast. Video tape is one way; telling the agent he will have your full cooperation as soon as your attorney gets there is another. Demanding that every violation found be photographed and documented and that you be provided with copies is another. (This one can backfire if there really are a lot of paperwork errors.)

Jim
 
Not to be smug, but to anyone who is saying it is illegal, news flash - the government does not care. I don't know if this is true or not, but would not surprise me if it was.

Non-elected Gov. officials routinely lie under oath to Congress. (Holder, NSA head, IRS leaders . . .) and these agencies do things which violate our constitutional rights or are illegal. This is not conjecture, these are facts. Even the government admit the actions are violations.

For the ATF to do this would not even make the top 10 list of illegal activities.
 
My experiences w/ AFT have been really good. Professional, polite, personable. This guy said he wanted FFL's to be successful; said his job depended on FFL's. I guess there's all types.
 
Mac's .......The ATF newsletter that you quoted from is pretty vague and can easily be misused by anybody with authority and that's the problem. For example: You use an abbreviation that you think is perfectly understandable. You get a compliance inspection. The inspector says "No problem" so you continue to use it for X number of years. Then you get another compliance inspection but that inspector says "Nope" and dings you for each and every time you used that abbreviation. Now you have hundreds of errors on your file.
As it says......they will tell you to stop using a particular abbreviation..........that IS NOT a violation unless you continue to do so after being told not to use it.

Any IOI that "dings" you for your customers using any state abbreviation, Dr, St, Cr, Rd, etc............NEEDS to be reported to their supervisor. Failure to do so is YOUR fault.


Regarding the crackdown on small time FFL dealers...so called "Kitchen Table Dealers": You should really do some more research before calling malarky. Back in Clintons time, the ATF was instructed..allowed..encouraged (Take your pick!) to toughen up on FFL Holders. They did this in several ways. One was to "suggest" to local governments that they needed to tighten up on zoning and licensing laws.
I've done my research and the supposed Clinton era witchhunt of "kitchen table dealers" WAS malarky. ATF did not change the rules, Clinton did not change the rules............what did change was ATF began enforcing existing law. Those kitchen table dealers that were not in compliance LIED on the application for an FFL. Many were not actually "dealing in firearms" but using their FFL to enhance their personal collection.........again a violation of regulations. Most should never have been issued a license to begin with. Most choose to voluntarily give up their license rather than comply with the requirement that a licensee operate legally. That meant complying with what it takes to legally be in business: business permits, sales tax permits, comply with zoning, etc.

ATF doesn't give a rats hiney if your licensed premises is a storefront, a home, or a cardboard box in the back yard........as long as the licensee can legally conduct a business at the proposed licensed premises the FFL must be issued. Keeping it requires the licensee to comply with Federal law and ATF regulations.
BTW.....I'm a "kitchen table dealer". After reading many posts on gun forums about Clinton and the ATF I discovered that it was complete and total malarky about the "NO KITCHEN TABLE DEALERS"...........there are actualy MORE kitchen table dealers than those with storefronts.


http://gunowners.org/op9509.htm

Just look at the statistics of how many FFL's have been run out of business by the ATF in the past ten years!
I have.
ATF publishes the stats every year and does a presentation at the SHOT Show......it is a VERY SMALL NUMBER.
And that link is to GOA.....not the best reference out there.





Sure, some of them were crooked dealers but the majority of them were honest dealers who were cheated out.
Malarky.
You are either complying with the regs or you aren't. There is due process and a method to appeal any ATF licensing revocation. A license revocation doesn't happen because the dealer had a customer who used the wrong abbreviation or because the dealer sold one AR lower to a twenty year old with a CHL. They write a warning letter first. A hearing second. Keep making mistakes and you should lose your license. Whether the dealer is honest has no bearing on anything, complying with Federal law and ATF regulations is what matters.
 
MtnCreek My experiences w/ AFT have been really good. Professional, polite, personable. This guy said he wanted FFL's to be successful; said his job depended on FFL's. I guess there's all types.
+1

My second IOI said it was in his best interest that I stay in compliance......his job wouldn't exist without gun dealers.:D
 
Sounds like we have at least one, maybe two ATF agents in this thread. There are good and bad people in this world and I am more than certain there are good and bad ATF agents in this world who get thier thrills out of hassling people and abusing their authority. No wait, that has never happened before in the history of the Universe. - Right.

Look no further than the crap that is now going on in the IRS if you think that to be a false statement. Calling someone's post here BS is not high road, regardless of your position on the subject.
 
Its not hard follow the rules and know the laws and the ATF will leave you alone. If your sloppy or doing what you want and breaking the law or even have a attitude when the ATF does come for their compliance inspection they can make your life hell and that's when they get the fine tooth comb out.

I do business with a firearms manufacturer that makes suppressors and machine guns that was charged with 2nd degree murder about 3 years ago. The ATF was waiting at his house when he was released on bail, he was acquitted but the ATF was leaning on him pretty hard to surrender his license. In the mean time his license expired and was renewed, now why/how would the ATF be able to renew a license for a person who is charged with 2nd degree murder, while shutting down home based dealers?

There is a gun store in Springfield Missouri that has been shut down and reopened 3 times in the past 8 years that I can remember each time its under the same name, but different people (dad then mom, now son) keep reopening it. One reason to use a LLC when you start a gun store if the ATF does shut you down which is different from voluntarily surrendering your license. You can start a new LLC and open a new gun shop.
 
dogtown tom said:
If they were armed they were not Industry Operations Investigators, but Special Agents.

ATF IOI= beancounter who does compliance inspections
ATF Special Agent= cop who investigates violation of Federal firearms law.

Either they were doing something illegal (providing 4473s) or being investigated for doing something illegal. Either way I do not shop there anymore. Nice selection to fondle. But them being the only gun store in close to an hour in any direction means they can be quite liberal with pricing.
 
I think he was referring to when the Oliver Stone movie "JFK" came out (although that was actually 1991). Or I'm just tired from a long trip :).
 
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