Don't need to put yourself in legal jeopardy for that standing. A refusal to accept payment/F1 for making a MG provides standing enough. Since you do not make the weapon until the tax stamp is returned approved, no harm no foul, since you have no machinegun at all.
AWB and Heller
- Thread starter revjen45
- Start date
- Status
Don't need to put yourself in legal jeopardy for that standing. A refusal to accept payment/F1 for making a MG provides standing enough. Since you do not make the weapon until the tax stamp is returned approved, no harm no foul, since you have no machinegun at all.
ManBearPig
member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2008
- Messages
- 151
Ok it looks like some people here feel Heller's "common use" is enough to stop another AWB, and others do not feel that way. Let's see if there is something we can all agree on.
The first AWB had a grandfather clause in it and the ban was barely passed at a time when being against "scary-looking guns" was the thing to do. Since that time, the Dems lost control of congress from 1994 to 2006 because of the AWB. Al Gore lost his own home state in 2000 because of gun control. And John Kerry can blame a good portion of his 2004 loss on his wanting to reinstate the AWB.
The point here? The Democrats, the ones that aren't fanatical about gun control, can see that AWBs cost them elections. So I'd say there is a chance that that fact, combined with the Heller "common use", would mean a good chance they wouldn't get the votes on another one.
But this isn't what I want to see what we all agree on. If another one was passed, if they did get the votes, I'm going to say there is no way in the pit of hades that it would not have a grandfather clause in it; it will have to. No grandfather clause means confiscation; not even the Democrats want that laid at their feet. Just me alone, I have $25,000 invested in my collection, most of which would be classified by the Brady's as "assault weapons". They'd have to be on crack to think people are just going to say "Here you go, take my expensive property that I legally bought with my hard earned money. Just take it." Anything they pass will absolutely HAVE to have a grandfather clause in it. I think we can agree on that. Anything else is political suicide and nationwide chaos.
The first AWB had a grandfather clause in it and the ban was barely passed at a time when being against "scary-looking guns" was the thing to do. Since that time, the Dems lost control of congress from 1994 to 2006 because of the AWB. Al Gore lost his own home state in 2000 because of gun control. And John Kerry can blame a good portion of his 2004 loss on his wanting to reinstate the AWB.
The point here? The Democrats, the ones that aren't fanatical about gun control, can see that AWBs cost them elections. So I'd say there is a chance that that fact, combined with the Heller "common use", would mean a good chance they wouldn't get the votes on another one.
But this isn't what I want to see what we all agree on. If another one was passed, if they did get the votes, I'm going to say there is no way in the pit of hades that it would not have a grandfather clause in it; it will have to. No grandfather clause means confiscation; not even the Democrats want that laid at their feet. Just me alone, I have $25,000 invested in my collection, most of which would be classified by the Brady's as "assault weapons". They'd have to be on crack to think people are just going to say "Here you go, take my expensive property that I legally bought with my hard earned money. Just take it." Anything they pass will absolutely HAVE to have a grandfather clause in it. I think we can agree on that. Anything else is political suicide and nationwide chaos.
yokel
Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2007
- Messages
- 1,235
Of course, our enemies needn't resort to a flat-out ban in order to reduce the number of guns and so-called assault weapons at large.
Americans have already been propagandized into believing a collection of myths that paint tommy guns and shotguns with a certain barrel length as intrinsically evil and the right tool for a thug, gangster, and hoodlum.
Americans have already been propagandized into believing a collection of myths that paint tommy guns and shotguns with a certain barrel length as intrinsically evil and the right tool for a thug, gangster, and hoodlum.
Duke Junior
member
A very,very fine cogent analysis.
Great job everallm.Up to your usual standards.
saltydog
Member
I don't think we will get an AWB but "reasonable regulations" may play a key part in a Bill (or numerous Bills) that will require regulating them, of course, it would be for our own good. 
I don't trust either party when it comes to banning firearms or any other regulations pertaining to them. Case in point. The 1994 Assualt Weapon ban (HR 4296) was passed by both parties. No pork was involved. Bill Clinton signed it into law. 177 Dems, 38 Reps, and 1 independent voted for the 1994 ban. The Ban only passed by 2 votes. See a problem here?
Here is the link. Make your own determination:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1994/roll156.xml
Don't forget when you look at the record, 77 Democrats voted against the Bill. We still need some of them on our side to cover "some traitors" in the Republican party.
I don't trust either party when it comes to banning firearms or any other regulations pertaining to them. Case in point. The 1994 Assualt Weapon ban (HR 4296) was passed by both parties. No pork was involved. Bill Clinton signed it into law. 177 Dems, 38 Reps, and 1 independent voted for the 1994 ban. The Ban only passed by 2 votes. See a problem here?
Here is the link. Make your own determination:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1994/roll156.xml
Don't forget when you look at the record, 77 Democrats voted against the Bill. We still need some of them on our side to cover "some traitors" in the Republican party.
Orlando Sentinel
Looks like the Orlando Slantinel is jumping on the bandwagon early. They started running a piece yesterday about the "problem" with assault weapons.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-shootout1108oct11,0,563660.story
orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-shootout1108oct11,0,563660.story
OrlandoSentinel.com
'Disposable' AK-47s — trend that worries cops
Henry Pierson Curtis
Sentinel Staff Writer
October 11, 2008
Orange County's latest murders reflect an alarming trend for law enforcement: urban firefights with dozens of shots fired.
The shooters in Tuesday night's double killing outside a Pine Hills apartment complex emptied two AK-47s into the victims and fled, discarding the assault rifles, two handguns and a shotgun.
"They just disposed of them like disposable cigarette lighters, I guess, because they're so easy to get," sheriff's homicide Detective Dave Clark said Friday. "I mean, it's really unusual for people to leave stuff like this behind."
Andre Patterson, 27, and Joshua Sharpe, 25, were shot repeatedly in the parking lot of Kensington Cottages apartments on Burroughs Drive off Hiawassee Road. Crime-scene technicians found 58 cartridges fired by the AK-47s and an undisclosed number from the other firearms.
One of the AK-47s had a 30-shot magazine. The other had a 40-shot magazine. Both had been fired until empty.
"We've come across something like this on three or four occasions this year with multiple weapons," said homicide Sgt. Allen Lee. "Just a couple of weeks ago when those [five] people got shot in Apopka, there were at least three different bursts of gunfire while we were there. And there were at least four to nine shots each time."
Crimes involving assault weapons have become so common that police officials across the nation are discussing how to contain the national problem, Sheriff Kevin Beary said this week. "We need to have a round-table with the Police Executive Research Foundation to get some answers," he said.
In the days since the double killing, detectives had learned that Patterson and Sharpe drove to the apartments to help a friend arguing with residents. The two groups clashed. Exactly why is still being investigated to identify the killers, Detective Brian Cross said.
The gunfight continued after deputies began arriving in patrol cars shortly after the 11:25 p.m. 911 call, according to interviews.
"They could have gotten hit," said Clark, noting patrol cars provide virtually no protection against assault rifles.
The victims' minivan and two other vehicles found in the parking lot had been hit by the gunfire. The bullets went through the doors, including a door post, and flattened a tire. The Sheriff's Office impounded the vehicles and confiscated the guns to examine them for clues.
Patterson had been arrested at least 13 times in Orange County on charges related to drugs, violence and firearms. Sharpe, known as "Booty," did not have a record in Orange County.
The killings -- the 55th and 56th in the unincorporated area of the county so far this year -- are being investigated with the help of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
So far, ATF agents based in Orlando discovered that one of the guns, a 9mm Sig-Sauer pistol, was stolen with 46 other firearms in a 2004 burglary of Shoot Straight- Casselberry, a Seminole County gun shop. One of the AK-47s shows likely signs of having been stolen because the serial number had been filed in an attempt to remove it, detectives said.
Henry Pierson Curtis can be reached at [email protected] or 407-420-5257.
Copyright © 2008, Orlando Sentinel
And then today's followup
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-armed1208oct12,0,4724483.story
orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-armed1208oct12,0,4724483.story
OrlandoSentinel.com
Sentinel Special Report
'Guns are everywhere,' Orlando police chief says
Cops are taking criminals' guns at a stunning rate since a federal ban on assault weapons expired. And that's just the ones they find.
Henry Pierson Curtis
Sentinel Staff Writer
October 12, 2008
Many of America's best-armed criminals call Orlando and the rest of Florida home.
AK-47s, other military-style assault weapons and expensive handguns have become so common that cops across the state routinely encounter suspects equipped for urban warfare, complete with 75-shot magazines and bulletproof vests.
In Orange County alone, the number of crime guns seized last year -- 3,333 -- was only 500 weapons fewer than the total seized in all five boroughs of New York City, which has eight times the population.
Another indicator is the sound of gunfire. Orlando police responded last year to 477 calls about shots fired. Orange County deputy sheriffs handled 10 times that amount -- 4,883 "discharge weapon" reports. In just those two jurisdictions, that adds up to more than 14 shootings a day.
The killers of two men slain in Pine Hills last week fired 58 rounds from two AK-47s during a furious gunbattle, detectives said. Investigators still are tracking a shotgun, a revolver and a stolen pistol found at the scene.
Such events, along with guns seized at a rate of nearly 10 a day, suggest a community at war with itself.
"Guns are everywhere," Orlando police Chief Val Demings said. "We are looking for guns in places where we never looked before. . . .
"When we're making drug arrests, nine times out of 10 there's going to be a gun nearby in the bushes, around the corner or in the house."
In March, the Orlando Sentinel began to collect public records on every firearm seized by Florida's largest police agencies, spurred by a surge in murder and gunfire locally since the end of the federal assault-weapons ban in 2004. The idea was to see whether what is happening in Orlando and Orange County was part of a larger trend.
The reports disclosed that the police agencies surveyed had removed nearly 60,000 guns from the streets during the past five years -- an arsenal better suited for combat in Afghanistan than the streets of Fort Lauderdale, Miami or Ocoee.
The actual number was much higher because several departments kept only partial records from 2003 through 2007.
9 mm pistol dominates
However you count it, Florida is synonymous with firepower.
Compare one year's take in "The City Beautiful" to those in much larger U.S. cities.
In Orlando (population 200,000), police seized 1,160 firearms last year. Police in Las Vegas (population 1.5 million) seized 601. Police in San Francisco (population 744,000) seized 1,091.
Florida law makes it easy for any adult without a criminal record to buy a gun. Yet many legally purchased guns end up being used by criminals. The state routinely turns up in law-enforcement surveys as one of the top three sources of firearms that turn up in crimes elsewhere.
All the 60,000 guns tracked by the Sentinel involved criminal charges or had been abandoned at crime scenes. None of the guns came from police buyback programs in which citizens trade firearms for sneakers or store credits. Gun busts occasionally turned up machine guns and other illegal oddities, but handguns were the most common.
Of them all, the 9 mm pistol reigns as the state's most-popular crime weapon: 10,297 seized from 2003-07.
Firing up to 32 bullets without reloading, it's the same handgun that persuaded U.S. law enforcement in the 1980s to abandon six-shooters forever to keep from being outgunned by criminals.
As a sign of their popularity, confiscations of 9 mm pistols have more than doubled in Orlando, Jacksonville and Hillsborough County in recent years.
They turn up everywhere, even in tourist bags.
Last year at Universal Studios in Orlando, security guards found a 9 mm pistol, two 30-shot magazines, two 16-shot magazines and 69 bullets in a patron's backpack outside the City Walk nightclub complex.
The patron, an electrician from South Florida, didn't feel comfortable walking unarmed in the crowd of thousands. His choice cost him two days in the county jail, but a plea bargain let him go home without a criminal record for carrying a concealed weapon.
His gun was a $500 Czech import. The most popular seized 9 mms in Florida are made by the venerable U.S. company Smith & Wesson, followed by Glock, both in the $450 to $600 range. Only in Jacksonville was Hi-Point, an economy brand selling for $200 or less, confiscated more often than much-higher-priced competitors.
'So many guns'
Expensive brands also dominated the rising numbers of confiscated .40-caliber and .45-caliber semiautomatic pistols.
"Criminals are equal-opportunity types who think the same as consumers: You get what you pay for. They're going to go for the weapon that's most proficient and concealable," said Orange sheriff's Cpl. John Park, a member of the Tactical Anti-Crime Unit that targets high-crime areas. "We're pulling so many guns off the street."
Seizures of military-style weapons have skyrocketed since the end of the 10-year ban on assault weapons, which prohibited or severely restricted sales of the most deadly firearms on the market, along with magazines holding more than 10 bullets.
Those weapons included AK-47s and many others with two or more military-style features.
In Orlando, officers seized seven AK-47s and similarly high-powered AR-15s in 2003. Orange County deputies seized eight that year. Four years later, those numbers jumped more than 400 percent -- 31 in Orlando, 48 in the county. Total for the five years: 321.
Deadliest on the street
Cops consider assault weapons the deadliest firearms on the street. Their high-velocity bullets hit with three to four times the energy of a 9 mm pistol -- enough power to tear apart brick walls and human bodies.
The five-year total includes AK-47s, AR-15s and Tec-9 machine pistols but does not include 72 SKS carbines seized by the two agencies. Those weapons fire the same bullet as the AK-47 but were not included in the federal ban.
On New Year's Eve in 2005, a bullet fired from an SKS killed an Orlando man more than a mile away.
"What is the need?" asked Orange-Osceola's Chief Medical Examiner Dr. Jan Garavaglia, who autopsies the victims. "If you can shoot through the wall of a house, it's not for self-protection. . . . Why anybody has these types of rifles is probably not to do good."
Drug dealing was the most common crime connected to assault weapons in Orange County.
The confiscated weapons were linked to 148 drug-related cases; 120 home invasions, burglaries and acts of violence; and 39 domestic-violence injunctions, according to court records in each case.
Several suspects arrested in those cases bought AK-47s within days of turning 18.
One riddled a girlfriend's car for jilting him. Another robbed a gas station, leaving behind his home address on a receipt for the just-purchased assault weapon. A third, who went shooting near his home, simply described himself as angry.
'It's just crazy'
"When it happens to you, it's amazing," said William Bolden, recalling how a group of young men in three vehicles stopped in his Pine Hills neighborhood this summer and fired at least 66 shots. "I started running. That's when I got hit."
It was July 7 -- the day William and his twin brother, Willie, were celebrating their 52nd birthdays. Each twin was wounded: William in his right foot; Willie in his right ear.
Crime-scene technicians recovered:
*A dozen .22-caliber shell casings.
*Seven from a .380-caliber pistol.
*Twelve from a .40-caliber pistol.
*Eighteen from a .45-caliber pistol.
*Six from a .357-caliber Magnum revolver.
*Two unfired 12-gauge shotgun shells.
*Eleven from an M-1 military carbine.
One of the suspects turned out to be 17. The oldest was 25.
"It's just crazy," William Bolden said. "I don't understand these young people."
Yet rage and recklessness are not age-restricted.
In 2004, a 70-year-old Winter Park homeowner with a .223-caliber carbine was arrested and convicted for threatening to shoot a tree surgeon for trimming limbs that shaded his yard.
Looking over the data, Orange County Sheriff Kevin Beary said that Florida has become much more dangerous -- for residents and police officers -- since the end of the weapons ban.
"There should be a huge concern not just here locally but across the nation about the huge increases in the numbers of assault weapons and high-power semiautomatic pistols that our deputies and police officers are coming across," he said. "This shows that without the ban, the criminal element has definitely taken advantage of the market."
Vicki McClure and Katy Moore of the Sentinel staff contributed to this report. Henry Pierson Curtis can be reached at [email protected] or 407-420-5257.
For complete chart, see printed copy.
Copyright © 2008, Orlando Sentinel
Looks like the Orlando Slantinel is jumping on the bandwagon early. They started running a piece yesterday about the "problem" with assault weapons.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-shootout1108oct11,0,563660.story
orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-shootout1108oct11,0,563660.story
OrlandoSentinel.com
'Disposable' AK-47s — trend that worries cops
Henry Pierson Curtis
Sentinel Staff Writer
October 11, 2008
Orange County's latest murders reflect an alarming trend for law enforcement: urban firefights with dozens of shots fired.
The shooters in Tuesday night's double killing outside a Pine Hills apartment complex emptied two AK-47s into the victims and fled, discarding the assault rifles, two handguns and a shotgun.
"They just disposed of them like disposable cigarette lighters, I guess, because they're so easy to get," sheriff's homicide Detective Dave Clark said Friday. "I mean, it's really unusual for people to leave stuff like this behind."
Andre Patterson, 27, and Joshua Sharpe, 25, were shot repeatedly in the parking lot of Kensington Cottages apartments on Burroughs Drive off Hiawassee Road. Crime-scene technicians found 58 cartridges fired by the AK-47s and an undisclosed number from the other firearms.
One of the AK-47s had a 30-shot magazine. The other had a 40-shot magazine. Both had been fired until empty.
"We've come across something like this on three or four occasions this year with multiple weapons," said homicide Sgt. Allen Lee. "Just a couple of weeks ago when those [five] people got shot in Apopka, there were at least three different bursts of gunfire while we were there. And there were at least four to nine shots each time."
Crimes involving assault weapons have become so common that police officials across the nation are discussing how to contain the national problem, Sheriff Kevin Beary said this week. "We need to have a round-table with the Police Executive Research Foundation to get some answers," he said.
In the days since the double killing, detectives had learned that Patterson and Sharpe drove to the apartments to help a friend arguing with residents. The two groups clashed. Exactly why is still being investigated to identify the killers, Detective Brian Cross said.
The gunfight continued after deputies began arriving in patrol cars shortly after the 11:25 p.m. 911 call, according to interviews.
"They could have gotten hit," said Clark, noting patrol cars provide virtually no protection against assault rifles.
The victims' minivan and two other vehicles found in the parking lot had been hit by the gunfire. The bullets went through the doors, including a door post, and flattened a tire. The Sheriff's Office impounded the vehicles and confiscated the guns to examine them for clues.
Patterson had been arrested at least 13 times in Orange County on charges related to drugs, violence and firearms. Sharpe, known as "Booty," did not have a record in Orange County.
The killings -- the 55th and 56th in the unincorporated area of the county so far this year -- are being investigated with the help of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
So far, ATF agents based in Orlando discovered that one of the guns, a 9mm Sig-Sauer pistol, was stolen with 46 other firearms in a 2004 burglary of Shoot Straight- Casselberry, a Seminole County gun shop. One of the AK-47s shows likely signs of having been stolen because the serial number had been filed in an attempt to remove it, detectives said.
Henry Pierson Curtis can be reached at [email protected] or 407-420-5257.
Copyright © 2008, Orlando Sentinel
And then today's followup
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-armed1208oct12,0,4724483.story
orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-armed1208oct12,0,4724483.story
OrlandoSentinel.com
Sentinel Special Report
'Guns are everywhere,' Orlando police chief says
Cops are taking criminals' guns at a stunning rate since a federal ban on assault weapons expired. And that's just the ones they find.
Henry Pierson Curtis
Sentinel Staff Writer
October 12, 2008
Many of America's best-armed criminals call Orlando and the rest of Florida home.
AK-47s, other military-style assault weapons and expensive handguns have become so common that cops across the state routinely encounter suspects equipped for urban warfare, complete with 75-shot magazines and bulletproof vests.
In Orange County alone, the number of crime guns seized last year -- 3,333 -- was only 500 weapons fewer than the total seized in all five boroughs of New York City, which has eight times the population.
Another indicator is the sound of gunfire. Orlando police responded last year to 477 calls about shots fired. Orange County deputy sheriffs handled 10 times that amount -- 4,883 "discharge weapon" reports. In just those two jurisdictions, that adds up to more than 14 shootings a day.
The killers of two men slain in Pine Hills last week fired 58 rounds from two AK-47s during a furious gunbattle, detectives said. Investigators still are tracking a shotgun, a revolver and a stolen pistol found at the scene.
Such events, along with guns seized at a rate of nearly 10 a day, suggest a community at war with itself.
"Guns are everywhere," Orlando police Chief Val Demings said. "We are looking for guns in places where we never looked before. . . .
"When we're making drug arrests, nine times out of 10 there's going to be a gun nearby in the bushes, around the corner or in the house."
In March, the Orlando Sentinel began to collect public records on every firearm seized by Florida's largest police agencies, spurred by a surge in murder and gunfire locally since the end of the federal assault-weapons ban in 2004. The idea was to see whether what is happening in Orlando and Orange County was part of a larger trend.
The reports disclosed that the police agencies surveyed had removed nearly 60,000 guns from the streets during the past five years -- an arsenal better suited for combat in Afghanistan than the streets of Fort Lauderdale, Miami or Ocoee.
The actual number was much higher because several departments kept only partial records from 2003 through 2007.
9 mm pistol dominates
However you count it, Florida is synonymous with firepower.
Compare one year's take in "The City Beautiful" to those in much larger U.S. cities.
In Orlando (population 200,000), police seized 1,160 firearms last year. Police in Las Vegas (population 1.5 million) seized 601. Police in San Francisco (population 744,000) seized 1,091.
Florida law makes it easy for any adult without a criminal record to buy a gun. Yet many legally purchased guns end up being used by criminals. The state routinely turns up in law-enforcement surveys as one of the top three sources of firearms that turn up in crimes elsewhere.
All the 60,000 guns tracked by the Sentinel involved criminal charges or had been abandoned at crime scenes. None of the guns came from police buyback programs in which citizens trade firearms for sneakers or store credits. Gun busts occasionally turned up machine guns and other illegal oddities, but handguns were the most common.
Of them all, the 9 mm pistol reigns as the state's most-popular crime weapon: 10,297 seized from 2003-07.
Firing up to 32 bullets without reloading, it's the same handgun that persuaded U.S. law enforcement in the 1980s to abandon six-shooters forever to keep from being outgunned by criminals.
As a sign of their popularity, confiscations of 9 mm pistols have more than doubled in Orlando, Jacksonville and Hillsborough County in recent years.
They turn up everywhere, even in tourist bags.
Last year at Universal Studios in Orlando, security guards found a 9 mm pistol, two 30-shot magazines, two 16-shot magazines and 69 bullets in a patron's backpack outside the City Walk nightclub complex.
The patron, an electrician from South Florida, didn't feel comfortable walking unarmed in the crowd of thousands. His choice cost him two days in the county jail, but a plea bargain let him go home without a criminal record for carrying a concealed weapon.
His gun was a $500 Czech import. The most popular seized 9 mms in Florida are made by the venerable U.S. company Smith & Wesson, followed by Glock, both in the $450 to $600 range. Only in Jacksonville was Hi-Point, an economy brand selling for $200 or less, confiscated more often than much-higher-priced competitors.
'So many guns'
Expensive brands also dominated the rising numbers of confiscated .40-caliber and .45-caliber semiautomatic pistols.
"Criminals are equal-opportunity types who think the same as consumers: You get what you pay for. They're going to go for the weapon that's most proficient and concealable," said Orange sheriff's Cpl. John Park, a member of the Tactical Anti-Crime Unit that targets high-crime areas. "We're pulling so many guns off the street."
Seizures of military-style weapons have skyrocketed since the end of the 10-year ban on assault weapons, which prohibited or severely restricted sales of the most deadly firearms on the market, along with magazines holding more than 10 bullets.
Those weapons included AK-47s and many others with two or more military-style features.
In Orlando, officers seized seven AK-47s and similarly high-powered AR-15s in 2003. Orange County deputies seized eight that year. Four years later, those numbers jumped more than 400 percent -- 31 in Orlando, 48 in the county. Total for the five years: 321.
Deadliest on the street
Cops consider assault weapons the deadliest firearms on the street. Their high-velocity bullets hit with three to four times the energy of a 9 mm pistol -- enough power to tear apart brick walls and human bodies.
The five-year total includes AK-47s, AR-15s and Tec-9 machine pistols but does not include 72 SKS carbines seized by the two agencies. Those weapons fire the same bullet as the AK-47 but were not included in the federal ban.
On New Year's Eve in 2005, a bullet fired from an SKS killed an Orlando man more than a mile away.
"What is the need?" asked Orange-Osceola's Chief Medical Examiner Dr. Jan Garavaglia, who autopsies the victims. "If you can shoot through the wall of a house, it's not for self-protection. . . . Why anybody has these types of rifles is probably not to do good."
Drug dealing was the most common crime connected to assault weapons in Orange County.
The confiscated weapons were linked to 148 drug-related cases; 120 home invasions, burglaries and acts of violence; and 39 domestic-violence injunctions, according to court records in each case.
Several suspects arrested in those cases bought AK-47s within days of turning 18.
One riddled a girlfriend's car for jilting him. Another robbed a gas station, leaving behind his home address on a receipt for the just-purchased assault weapon. A third, who went shooting near his home, simply described himself as angry.
'It's just crazy'
"When it happens to you, it's amazing," said William Bolden, recalling how a group of young men in three vehicles stopped in his Pine Hills neighborhood this summer and fired at least 66 shots. "I started running. That's when I got hit."
It was July 7 -- the day William and his twin brother, Willie, were celebrating their 52nd birthdays. Each twin was wounded: William in his right foot; Willie in his right ear.
Crime-scene technicians recovered:
*A dozen .22-caliber shell casings.
*Seven from a .380-caliber pistol.
*Twelve from a .40-caliber pistol.
*Eighteen from a .45-caliber pistol.
*Six from a .357-caliber Magnum revolver.
*Two unfired 12-gauge shotgun shells.
*Eleven from an M-1 military carbine.
One of the suspects turned out to be 17. The oldest was 25.
"It's just crazy," William Bolden said. "I don't understand these young people."
Yet rage and recklessness are not age-restricted.
In 2004, a 70-year-old Winter Park homeowner with a .223-caliber carbine was arrested and convicted for threatening to shoot a tree surgeon for trimming limbs that shaded his yard.
Looking over the data, Orange County Sheriff Kevin Beary said that Florida has become much more dangerous -- for residents and police officers -- since the end of the weapons ban.
"There should be a huge concern not just here locally but across the nation about the huge increases in the numbers of assault weapons and high-power semiautomatic pistols that our deputies and police officers are coming across," he said. "This shows that without the ban, the criminal element has definitely taken advantage of the market."
Vicki McClure and Katy Moore of the Sentinel staff contributed to this report. Henry Pierson Curtis can be reached at [email protected] or 407-420-5257.
For complete chart, see printed copy.
Copyright © 2008, Orlando Sentinel
ManBearPig
member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2008
- Messages
- 151
Wow, they added a new term in that biased report: "High Powered Semi-Automatic Pistols"....which of course they mean 9mms. Too bad for them, Heller specifically says you can't ban handguns, unlike the "common clause" which may be used to keep from banning those "evil looking" semi-auto AK-47 Clones.
Nice article. I just love reading LEOs LIE about firearms. No doubt LEOs will ask for any exemption to the next ban.
So easy and common to see AK47s as crime weapons is why I am still waiting all these years to see one break into the TOP 10 murders weapons. Also waiting on Ar15s, Fn FALs, anything with a folding stock, bayonet and/or flash hider to make the list. I've only been reading those reports since
1996.
So easy and common to see AK47s as crime weapons is why I am still waiting all these years to see one break into the TOP 10 murders weapons. Also waiting on Ar15s, Fn FALs, anything with a folding stock, bayonet and/or flash hider to make the list. I've only been reading those reports since
1996.
Poor East Texan
Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2008
- Messages
- 366
I'm starting to get the sinking feeling that Obama is going to walk in in November.
Draconian laws to follow.
DAMMIT!
Draconian laws to follow.
DAMMIT!
Duke Junior
member
Welcome to THR, zubee!
Prince Yamato
Member
So, they fired until empty? They had a 30 round and a 40 round mag (30+40=70) and 58 shots were fired... ummm... they didn't fire until empty.
Eightball
Member
This strikes me as unusual in the above articles; I think it's one of the first times I've heard of an M1 carbine being used in such a manner.
M1 Carbine
Probably stolen. Lots of gun shop robberies in the Orlando area over the past few years. They are finally getting smart and installing surveillance systems and locking all the firearms up at night. Too many instances of low life's driving a truck through the wall and cleaning the display cases out.
Probably stolen. Lots of gun shop robberies in the Orlando area over the past few years. They are finally getting smart and installing surveillance systems and locking all the firearms up at night. Too many instances of low life's driving a truck through the wall and cleaning the display cases out.
Gunsby_Blazen
Member
the question is, what the heck are we supposed to do??
the loons seem to have more votes because they are electing a guy who clearly has a skewed understanding of our constitution. when you try to get your message out, the average fellow will dismiss you as being a gun nut. So you argue other points and they dont hear them. I am just not liking any part of any of this.... I feel powerless. we need a louder organized voice so that we can uphold our constitution.
the loons seem to have more votes because they are electing a guy who clearly has a skewed understanding of our constitution. when you try to get your message out, the average fellow will dismiss you as being a gun nut. So you argue other points and they dont hear them. I am just not liking any part of any of this.... I feel powerless. we need a louder organized voice so that we can uphold our constitution.
razorback2003
Member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2008
- Messages
- 1,231
Harry Reid
Will be important if he is still the Majority Leader in the Senate. He has about the same record as McCain as far as gun control ideas. Not ideal but a whole lot better than Obama and Senate Majority Leader carries a big stick as to bills that come to the floor.
Here is a link to some of his record on gun control:
http://www.ontheissues.org/Domestic/Harry_Reid_Gun_Control.htm
You might have to copy and paste it to your browser to find it.
If someone radical like Dick Durban of Illinois becomes Senate Majority Leader, and Pelosi is still speaker, and Obama as president we might have some serious problems that would take supreme court intervention and years to over turn extreme unconstitutional laws.
Will be important if he is still the Majority Leader in the Senate. He has about the same record as McCain as far as gun control ideas. Not ideal but a whole lot better than Obama and Senate Majority Leader carries a big stick as to bills that come to the floor.
Here is a link to some of his record on gun control:
http://www.ontheissues.org/Domestic/Harry_Reid_Gun_Control.htm
You might have to copy and paste it to your browser to find it.
If someone radical like Dick Durban of Illinois becomes Senate Majority Leader, and Pelosi is still speaker, and Obama as president we might have some serious problems that would take supreme court intervention and years to over turn extreme unconstitutional laws.
Borachon
Member
I don't believe that a grandfather clause will be included. If the purpose, as stated by Barak Obama, is to "get AK-47s out of the hands of criminals", then the only way to do so is to limit the number of AK-47s in the country. If regular citizens have them, then criminals will have them. By purchase, or by theft, they would acquire them. Therefore, private citizens must NOT be allowed to have them. It's a logical extention of Barak's stated course of action.
Since the Democrats know that the original AWB failed to achieve what they wanted it is a sure bet that the next one will not resemble the original. Therefore I do not believe the grandfather provision will be allowed.
As to "going around and confiscating them", as another member suggested, I don't think that would even enter their minds. If a system were put in place I believe it would work something like this:
I believe they would simply point out that a certain class of guns are illegal. Semi automatics in this case. Make ALL of them illegal, as was done in Australia. Make no distinctions between traditional hunting rifles, pistols or shotguns. Then inform everyone that the ATF will make a determination on "common use purpose firearms" and either exempt the class of semi automatic held (perhaps a Browning semi auto 30-06 with 5 round clips), or inform everyone it is banned entirely (Ak-47 styles). If banned, they must be turned in. Guns that receive NO determination and meet the qualification of being semi automatic, and loaded by detachable clip or magazine, will automatically be deemed to be illegal. Violators of this law after Sept 15, 2009 will be subject to imprisonment of 10 years without parole for each gun held in violation. Offer a reward system to people to report their neighbors. Make it $50 per gun or even a $100.
Let everyone know the provisions. A lot of guns will be turned in. The other guns will disappear. They will either disappear into militia group buried vaults, or into old attics, or under the floorboards of some farmers old barn, but they will not be taken to gun ranges. They will not be in the trunk of a car. They will not be used for hunting. No one will be able to order parts for them because not only would the parts be banned, but you couldn't trust that someone along the transportation line wouldn't blow the whistle on you for the money. And forever afterward, you would wonder if your gun had been discovered through an innocent discovery, like a fire marshall inspecting your house after a small fire, or if you were going to be betrayed by the neighbor you bragged to about your AR-15 you bought 15 years ago. Every traffic stop would go from a fear of being out of date on your license plate, to worrying that you'd be going to prison for the 10/22 in your trunk. Would you still openly display them in that environment? Would you still keep them in that environment? If you decide to go the illegal route and keep them, you won't be able to show them, or leave them where they could be found easily.
So although the guns might still exist, they won't be out there being used. They won't be falling into the hands of criminals unless the criminals know where to dig under the pig pens and smelly chicken runs. So some of the guns are turned in. The others are hidden or buried. Why WOULDN'T a super liberal support this?
As to running it through Congress..don't bother. Why push that heat onto your party? Just have Barak write an executive order seizing them like gold was seized in the 1930's. Pass the Executive Order (the President is the commander and chief of the Army...which you could argue includes the Militias and their weaponry, could you not?) and let the President take the blame/credit for this action. Then it would be up to the courts to decide if they want to hear the court case on it. Since "assualt weapons owners" constitute a fairly small group of citizens taken as a percentage of the population you can't be sure the Courts would feel the need to address the issue. Also, a 5 to 4 decision in favor of Hellar should not inspire confidence that a similar result would occur later.
Even worse will be if Obama announces his intentions to feature some type of confiscation within a few days of being elected, as it looks like he will. This will kill the value of the firearms immediately. No one will want them if they know a 10 year prison sentence comes with them. This would throw massive confusion into the gun community and would occupy a lot of gun owners concentration and time. The gun community would also very quickly discover that there are division within our ranks as well. Not everyone owns or appreciates a semi automatic firearm. A good portion of our community are revolver only, bolt action only, cowboy shooter only, skeet shooter only and won't really have a dog in the fight...beyond using their imagination to include themselves as being subject to some later laws.
Since the Democrats know that the original AWB failed to achieve what they wanted it is a sure bet that the next one will not resemble the original. Therefore I do not believe the grandfather provision will be allowed.
As to "going around and confiscating them", as another member suggested, I don't think that would even enter their minds. If a system were put in place I believe it would work something like this:
I believe they would simply point out that a certain class of guns are illegal. Semi automatics in this case. Make ALL of them illegal, as was done in Australia. Make no distinctions between traditional hunting rifles, pistols or shotguns. Then inform everyone that the ATF will make a determination on "common use purpose firearms" and either exempt the class of semi automatic held (perhaps a Browning semi auto 30-06 with 5 round clips), or inform everyone it is banned entirely (Ak-47 styles). If banned, they must be turned in. Guns that receive NO determination and meet the qualification of being semi automatic, and loaded by detachable clip or magazine, will automatically be deemed to be illegal. Violators of this law after Sept 15, 2009 will be subject to imprisonment of 10 years without parole for each gun held in violation. Offer a reward system to people to report their neighbors. Make it $50 per gun or even a $100.
Let everyone know the provisions. A lot of guns will be turned in. The other guns will disappear. They will either disappear into militia group buried vaults, or into old attics, or under the floorboards of some farmers old barn, but they will not be taken to gun ranges. They will not be in the trunk of a car. They will not be used for hunting. No one will be able to order parts for them because not only would the parts be banned, but you couldn't trust that someone along the transportation line wouldn't blow the whistle on you for the money. And forever afterward, you would wonder if your gun had been discovered through an innocent discovery, like a fire marshall inspecting your house after a small fire, or if you were going to be betrayed by the neighbor you bragged to about your AR-15 you bought 15 years ago. Every traffic stop would go from a fear of being out of date on your license plate, to worrying that you'd be going to prison for the 10/22 in your trunk. Would you still openly display them in that environment? Would you still keep them in that environment? If you decide to go the illegal route and keep them, you won't be able to show them, or leave them where they could be found easily.
So although the guns might still exist, they won't be out there being used. They won't be falling into the hands of criminals unless the criminals know where to dig under the pig pens and smelly chicken runs. So some of the guns are turned in. The others are hidden or buried. Why WOULDN'T a super liberal support this?
As to running it through Congress..don't bother. Why push that heat onto your party? Just have Barak write an executive order seizing them like gold was seized in the 1930's. Pass the Executive Order (the President is the commander and chief of the Army...which you could argue includes the Militias and their weaponry, could you not?) and let the President take the blame/credit for this action. Then it would be up to the courts to decide if they want to hear the court case on it. Since "assualt weapons owners" constitute a fairly small group of citizens taken as a percentage of the population you can't be sure the Courts would feel the need to address the issue. Also, a 5 to 4 decision in favor of Hellar should not inspire confidence that a similar result would occur later.
Even worse will be if Obama announces his intentions to feature some type of confiscation within a few days of being elected, as it looks like he will. This will kill the value of the firearms immediately. No one will want them if they know a 10 year prison sentence comes with them. This would throw massive confusion into the gun community and would occupy a lot of gun owners concentration and time. The gun community would also very quickly discover that there are division within our ranks as well. Not everyone owns or appreciates a semi automatic firearm. A good portion of our community are revolver only, bolt action only, cowboy shooter only, skeet shooter only and won't really have a dog in the fight...beyond using their imagination to include themselves as being subject to some later laws.
ManBearPig
member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2008
- Messages
- 151
Borachon, I understand what you are saying, but I just compeletly disagree with it ever happening. I think maybe you are being way way way too pessimistic. There is simply no way the Democrats would ever allow confiscation to be laid at their doorstep. They just won't do it. Many of them have learned from the past how bad AWBs are in the first place; they sure wouldn't allow one passed without a Grandfather clause. I think anyone who says one would be passed without a grandfather clause just isn't thinking rationally.
Will another assault weapon ban be passed, regardless of the wording in Heller? Possibly. After looking at gun control laws in the past, did they all have grandfather clauses? Yes. Is there any reason to think that a new AWB would somehow skew so far to the communist left as to make your legally bought property illegal no matter what? No way. That's complete and utter politcal suicide. It just won't happen.
Will another assault weapon ban be passed, regardless of the wording in Heller? Possibly. After looking at gun control laws in the past, did they all have grandfather clauses? Yes. Is there any reason to think that a new AWB would somehow skew so far to the communist left as to make your legally bought property illegal no matter what? No way. That's complete and utter politcal suicide. It just won't happen.
ManBearPig
member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2008
- Messages
- 151
It happening in one state, the most anti-gun state in the country, is one thing. A congress with a Democrat majority (a good portion of them pro-gun Democrats) passing a bill that effects the enitre country and says all current "assault weapon" property is illegal, there by making gun owners who have invested thousands of dollars in their collections become criminals or give up their investment, is quite another thing entirely. I think they'd have a hard enough time getting votes for a new AWB with a grandfather clause (because of the blue dog Democrats), let alone the votes for something that doesn't have one. No way, no how, no when. And Obama isn't going to sign some executive order criminalizing millions of law-abiding citizens over night. If there is another, it will be a much stricter AWB than the old one, but it will grandfather weapons.
ohgrady
Member
Unity!
Very true-gun owners are not united in many aspects.
I've seen numerous postings on various boards on the question of hunting with an AK or SKS. There are always those who lambaste hunters who use or who plan to use an AK/SKS. And the question is usually from an 18yr old kid who scraped up a few bucks for an SKS and wants to deer hunt-he gets all sorts of replies about spending more on a 30-06 and then someone finally tells him practice and keep his shots to no longer than 150 yards.
While discussing my concerns about gun control with my own father(who has fired my WASR and SKS)-dad being a bolt action man from childhood-made a comment about why do we (me included) really need 30 round magazines for our rifles. I told him about Australia-he didn't know they took away semi-auto and pump action firearms. I told him if you make 30 round mag's illegal, when some nut uses a 20 round mag to kill people in a mass shooting then 20 rounders will be illegal......and then when some nut uses 10 round mags, then they will be illegal..... and then.............. he saw my point.
Those of us who shoot semi-autos (especially AK/SKS/AR/FAL type rifles)need to make sure the rest of the community is in the fight with us.
I go to the range and shoot my semi-automatic rifles at least once a month. I consider that for "sporting" purposes. So if half the guys at the range are shooting AK/SKS or AR's does that make them sporting? So then we beat a new AWB bill!?
And hey, the range beats the hell out of golfing. Maybe that's the key, getting the lawyers, doctors, and politicians off the golf course and on the range with an AK...........nah, let me think of something else....
HTML:
The gun community would also very quickly discover that there are division within our ranks as well. Not everyone owns or appreciates a semi automatic firearm. A good portion of our community are revolver only, bolt action only, cowboy shooter only, skeet shooter only and won't really have a dog in the fight...beyond using their imagination to include themselves as being subject to some later laws.Very true-gun owners are not united in many aspects.
I've seen numerous postings on various boards on the question of hunting with an AK or SKS. There are always those who lambaste hunters who use or who plan to use an AK/SKS. And the question is usually from an 18yr old kid who scraped up a few bucks for an SKS and wants to deer hunt-he gets all sorts of replies about spending more on a 30-06 and then someone finally tells him practice and keep his shots to no longer than 150 yards.
While discussing my concerns about gun control with my own father(who has fired my WASR and SKS)-dad being a bolt action man from childhood-made a comment about why do we (me included) really need 30 round magazines for our rifles. I told him about Australia-he didn't know they took away semi-auto and pump action firearms. I told him if you make 30 round mag's illegal, when some nut uses a 20 round mag to kill people in a mass shooting then 20 rounders will be illegal......and then when some nut uses 10 round mags, then they will be illegal..... and then.............. he saw my point.
Those of us who shoot semi-autos (especially AK/SKS/AR/FAL type rifles)need to make sure the rest of the community is in the fight with us.
I go to the range and shoot my semi-automatic rifles at least once a month. I consider that for "sporting" purposes. So if half the guys at the range are shooting AK/SKS or AR's does that make them sporting? So then we beat a new AWB bill!?
And hey, the range beats the hell out of golfing.
Maybe that's the key, getting the lawyers, doctors, and politicians off the golf course and on the range with an AK...........nah, let me think of something else....PCflorida--actually this year in Kali--we did get a couple of big wins--the San Francisco handgun ban lost in the California Supreme Court and we got legislation passed prohibiting NOLA style gun confiscations (it was going well until Pasadena (home of the Rose Parade) state senator Jack Scott stood up and got videotaped loudly proclaiming his support for firearm confiscationss
-then it went very well). Chuck Michel (NRA lawyer practicing here in Los Angeles) spoke at meeting I was at Thursday, and apparently the lease agreement at San Francisco public housing banning firearm possesion has a good chance of getting incorporation through the Ninth Circus Court
and we got legislation passed prohibiting NOLA style gun confiscations (it was going well until Pasadena (home of the Rose Parade) state senator Jack Scott stood up and got videotaped loudly proclaiming his support for firearm confiscationss-then it went very well). Chuck Michel (NRA lawyer practicing here in Los Angeles) spoke at meeting I was at Thursday, and apparently the lease agreement at San Francisco public housing banning firearm possesion has a good chance of getting incorporation through the Ninth Circus Court- Status
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