AWB and Heller

[conrad carter]

goin' to the Pen

Well Borachon, if firearms owners hold on to their guns when they should have turned them in... it's a ticket to free room and board during the retirement years when they get caught. They ruined your 401k so the best revenge will be enjoying the game rooms and cable TV in the local minimum security pen. It's a satisfying thought that they'd have to spend 80k plus a year for a man's senior living.

 

[RX-178]

Well, another thing to consider is, just because someone is revolver only, or bolt action only, etc.

Does not mean that they're AGAINST our rights to have semi automatic weapons.

I have advised people against AKs and SKS rifles in the past, and I understand how some people could take that out of context. Let me describe one such situation.

I was at the gun shop (the one I usually go to for FFL transfers), hanging around and chatting with the regulars, and the guys behind the counter. We're all on a first name basis. Someone came in, looked around a little, and asked about a rifle, and mentioned the AK on the rack behind the counter.

I assumed, and asked him, 'Home defense?'

He said that he already had a shotgun for home defense (he named the model, but I can't recall what it was), and he wanted something for hunting and target shooting.

We eventually talked him into buying a Mossberg ATR rifle.

You see, after talking with him about AKs, SKS, and other weapons (including Mosin Nagants... which are good for any budget), it eventually came out that he had a friend with an AR-15 that he used as a hunting and target weapon, and he figured that the AK would give him the same kind of weapon for less money. (I have since had a long talk with him about the average target-shooting AR-15 )

To my knowledge he still does not own a semi-auto rifle, and I don't think he owns a handgun of any type.

He loves borrowing my XCR at the range though.

 

[PCFlorida]

Cflorida--actually this year in Kali--we did get a couple of big wins--the San Francisco handgun ban lost in the California Supreme Court and we got legislation passed prohibiting NOLA style gun confiscations (it was going well until Pasadena (home of the Rose Parade) state senator Jack Scott stood up and got videotaped loudly proclaiming his support for firearm confiscationss-then it went very well). Chuck Michel (NRA lawyer practicing here in Los Angeles) spoke at meeting I was at Thursday, and apparently the lease agreement at San Francisco public housing banning firearm possesion has a good chance of getting incorporation through the Ninth Circus Court

dvcrsn, Are there any movements in place to get your "assault weapon" restrictions lifted or eased?

 

[riverdog]

PCFlorida,
Nordyke-v-King is running through the 9th Circuit right now. That case could see 2A incorporation for CA and the rest of the states covered by the 9th Circuit. If so, I'd expect to see a number of lawsuits filed to reverse many of CA's gun laws currently on the books.

For a good read on why Nordyke could result in 2A 9th Circuit incorporation, read Gura's Nordyke Amicus brief.

$.02, IANAL

 

[ilbob]

His current success in the polls is due to the fact that he has managed to convince ENOUGH of the people that he isn't a raving radical socialist racist who associates with known terrorists.

There are plenty of voters who think they can use government to steal from the "rich" to give them some goodie that they otherwise would have to pay for themselves.

Health care is one of the biggies. For some reason people who are otherwise pretty bright are convinced they have some right to have someone else pay for their health care. Once you start to believe that kind of nonsense, it is not hard to fool yourself into voting for such a candidate.

In the long run, I do not think Heller is adequate to protect us from the gun grabbers. We are going to have to start getting better candidates at all levels of political office. Part of the reason why good candidates are so few is that most of those who would be good candidates cannot afford to take the pay cut. So you end up with those who want to use political office to enrich themselves, or wealthy individuals who already have plenty of money (no reason a particular candidate cannot be both). Look at BHO. He is a multi-millionaire. Where did a "community organizer" get all that money from?

 

[PCFlorida]

PCFlorida,
Nordyke-v-King is running through the 9th Circuit right now. That case could see 2A incorporation for CA and the rest of the states covered by the 9th Circuit. If so, I'd expect to see a number of lawsuits filed to reverse many of CA's gun laws currently on the books.

For a good read on why Nordyke could result in 2A 9th Circuit incorporation, read Gura's Nordyke Amicus brief.

Thanks, I'll do that.

 

[Sam Adams]

I don't think that an AWB-II with no grandfather clause will pass, let alone get through the Supreme Court. I also believe that within a day or 2 of such a thing being signed into law, there would be 1 or more suits filed with an emergency request to restrain the government from enforcing the law until the matter was decided.

With a grandfather clause is a different thing - nothing is being taken away. However, there will be NO SUNSET PROVISION. The antis absolutely DID learn a lesson, and there will have to be an affirmative vote at some point in the future in order to reverse the new law. A PERMANENT ban on listed models (though NOT all semi-autos, since that'd run afoul of Heller); a PERMANENT ban on all mags over 10 rounds (stock up now, folks, if you didn't starting in 2004 when the first one expired); etc.

I also see Obama doing 2 other things that do not require Congressional approval, and which will be nearly impossible for us to get reversed in the USSC: 1) an Executive Order banning imports of ALL foreign firearms, ammo, parts, magazines and reloading components; and 2) an effort to sign exclusive contracts with various gun, ammo and component manufacturers - exclusive as in "Listen to me, Mr. Company President, we at fed.gov will only sign a contract with you if you sell your entire production of item x to us [limited to a certain ceiling amount that is above that company's civilian sales], otherwise your competitor gets the contract. Capiche?" THAT is how you choke off the civilian market.

BATFE will also be let loose to harass gun owners and FFLs. Gun shows won't be illegal, but they'll be so regulated and expensive that they will disappear because of the lack of business. They'll have BATFE agents at the entrance to the parking lots openly taking pictures of license plates and all of the people in the cars/trucks.

Listen, folks, these legal niceties (you know, like the 2nd Amendment) may ultimately save us, but only after many years, many people being jailed, having their homes burned down, cats killed, pregnant wives kicked in the belly, bankruptcy-inducing legal fights, etc. Trust me, I'm an attorney, and I know how slowly the wheels of Justice can grind (and how justice sometimes NEVER takes place when the judges are corrupted by their power). We may win in a technical sense, but they'll win in a practical sense. This particular candidate (Obama) is the single most anti-gun candidate for President IN OUR HISTORY! He was a director of the Joyce Foundation - what else do you need to know?

 

[RX-178]

Another thing to think about, is that if there was EVER a federal gun control law reversed by an affirmative vote in the USA, I am unaware of it.

 

[USAFNoDAk]

On October 8th, I posted:

Once they control the White House and both sides of Congress, they will rip those from our grasp if they can summon the power to do so.

Yesterday, Zubee posted:

They control the White House and both sides of Congress, they will rip those from our grasp if they can summon the power to do so.

Either we are two great minds who think exactly alike, or he/she copied and pasted my stuff. Not that I really care, but it is uncanny that we'd have come up with virtually identical statements, with the exception of the word "Once".

 

[USAFNoDAk]

For some of us with "Chillrens", it makes no difference if there's a grandfather clause or not. I am not happy saying "I got mine, too bad you can't get yours". I want the same freedoms for my offspring, if not more, than I have now. Being more accepting of an AWB with a grandfather clause than one without one is not something I can square with. I'm not saying anyone in particular here is supportive of an AWB WITH a grandfather clause. I just think we should fight any AWB, grandfather clause or not, with every resource we have at our disposal. We cannot settle for AWB lite if it has a grandfather clause, just because we won't lose any of our "existing" firearms. We lose freedoms, and most importantly, those who would one day wish to purchase and use a semiauto firearm would lose a lot of their freedom. Yes, we can pass along guns we already have. I'm not satisfied with that. It's a loss of freedom to say that we cannot buy any "new" semiauto firearms because the politicians view them as too dangerous for "we the people".

 

[femoralis]

Some nasty federal gun laws were eliminated by the FOPA...

 

[LickitySplit]

I really can't see much progress or enthusiasm for an AWB... at least not this term.

Sure... the usual squeaky wheels will make some noise and a bit of a fuss... the Feinsteins, Schumers, McCarthys, etc, et al. But, at least this time around there actually are a few new dems in Congress that are pro RKBA.

The question is: will they allow themselves to be come under party pressure to vote in favor of a ban?

More pessimistically... if a ban does come down the road, there's no question that it will be more definitive and stricter than the last one. No sunset provision... no end runs that allow model name changes and/or omitting "evil features"... little to no time for manufacturers to roll out as many firearms as they can before the ban takes effect.

I have serious doubts that there will be no grandfather clause. It would be too much of a gamble, get very little support and in most likelihood wouldn't stand up to any court case.

However... what I could see happening is legislation that would redefine semi-auto firearms as NFA firearms. Owners would have a grace period to register their guns, with no tax or CLEO sign-off (similar to what was done with street sweepers, Strikers and USAS-12s).

Anyone caught after the cut-off date would be subject to the same fines and penalties as any other NFA violation.

There's already an existing example for this sort of alternative scheme contained in the bill that would place .50 BMG rifles in the NFA register.

The scary thing about implementing such a plan is that it would get wider support, and be ballyhooed as a "reasonable compromise". Even worse... it would probably be allowable under Heller.