Went to sight in the 45-70 today and noticed this. There were 2 like that in the box. Probably going to let Winchester know as an FYI. They didn’t shoot too bad either. 3 rounds in 1.5” groups at 100yards.
Okay, the thread was about unfortunate quality control noted in Winchester 45-70, and you're going off on Vista (CCI, Federal, Remington) trying to blow guns up. How about product liability? How about repeat sales when there are no guns? But I appreciate your not buying new ammo or components, because that increases my chance of obtaining them.I have had this private thought for a while.....
I trust no one and for darn good reason, I especially do not trust fat cat executives who have cornered the market (Vista sports).
Say for the sake of my paranoia Vista took a side with the Anti gun and they ran "poor quality ammo" how many guns could you destroy? More importantly say with the recent attempt to create a national gun registry it was to go through and is formed as well as restrictions are placed on ammo as has been done in California in recent years. HOW DO YOU GET AMMO?
You get the ammo quietly from the ammo hoarders of years past who bought this (questionable) ammo and are now selling for quite a profit. This ammo is sabotaged from the factory and we begin a campaign of systematic destruction of firearms because if it is not on the registry you can't own it.
How many can be destroyed using this tactic? Who knows
I am not buying new production powder or factory ammo currently because of this thought.
Okay, the thread was about unfortunate quality control noted in Winchester 45-70, and you're going off on Vista (CCI, Federal, Remington) trying to blow guns up. How about product liability? How about repeat sales when there are no guns? But I appreciate your not buying new ammo or components, because that increases my chance of obtaining them.
I have had this private thought for a while.....
I trust no one and for darn good reason, I especially do not trust fat cat executives who have cornered the market (Vista sports).
Say for the sake of my paranoia Vista took a side with the Anti gun and they ran "poor quality ammo" how many guns could you destroy? More importantly say with the recent attempt to create a national gun registry it was to go through and is formed as well as restrictions are placed on ammo as has been done in California in recent years. HOW DO YOU GET AMMO?
You get the ammo quietly from the ammo hoarders of years past who bought this (questionable) ammo and are now selling for quite a profit. This ammo is sabotaged from the factory and we begin a campaign of systematic destruction of firearms because if it is not on the registry you can't own it.
How many can be destroyed using this tactic? Who knows
I am not buying new production powder or factory ammo currently because of this thought.
For reloading I won’t touch it. I found two boxes of factory ammo for $25-box at Walmart. Just needed something for us to deer hunt with. Reloading brass is either starline, lake city and all the other gets used 2x as plinking ammo and tossed.Winchester ammunition quality has been falling for at least the last 12 years.
If people keep buying crappy products, manufacturers will keep making crappy products.
The best thing that ever happened for US car buyers was the arrival of Japanese imports and the realization by American car makers that people now had an affordable, better quality choice.
Once they no longer felt that they had a captive audience, quality and innovation improved.
Winchester used to be my favorite, but in the last 10 years I've moved to makers like Starline, PPU and Lapua for my purchased brass.
Hey it's a crazy world and we don't know who is in bed with who. Quality control is not difficult to maintain in a production setting where components are mated together. I ran Qcr for a variety of product lines to determine how best to handle tool changes and implement preventive maintenance outages.
Regardless of manufacturer the ammo on market today is pitiful and all we can do is question why?
There are human eyes at every point in the manufacturing process and no one is asking questions!
Deliver us from shrewd investors, vulture capitalists, and bean counters. Pride has been replaced with greed, and shareholders care only about immediate gratification. We've seen many fine old companies run into the ground because no one is in it for the long haul. Railroads are classic examples of skimming revenues rather than reinvesting. We can hope folks wake up before it's too late, but right now it's "show me the money".When Companies are purchased by investment groups, those investment groups core out the company to the maximum extent and then flip it to the next fool. You are seeing this all the time, old established companies, purchased by individuals who are in it for the short term, and those companies are loaded up with debt, and run into the ground. A relatively recent example was Toy's R US
The Demise of Toys ‘R’ Us Is a Warning
It used to be that Winchester was great ammunition, I preferentially looked for their brass, especially in 223. It was good stuff. But, that was a couple of decades ago. If more and more defective Winchester ammunition is making it to the market, it is because of deliberate decisions by the front Office to let the factory fall apart, hire cheap 20 something's, make work difficult so they will leave before they get expensive. And to ship non conforming material to the public. And the shooting public is at fault for buying any buffalo chip that chambers in their boom stick, regardless of how it stinks. Also, our Political Class has protected these greedy, sloppy, ammunition manufacturer's by banning ammunition imports from China and Russia, so there is a lack of competition on price and quality. If there was competition on quality and price, Winchester and the other investor group owned ammunition companies would surely fail through lack of sales. Won't happen though, the customer continues to have fewer and fewer choices.
Its called, chrony capitalism.
Yes, I have a hard time shooting those out of my Mark II. They jam rather consistently. Plus there's a lot of squibs that seem primer-only, where I have to check the barrel. Switch to CCI Mini-mags, and there's no issue.Lack of workforce. Training new lackeys. In a hurry to meet ammo demands. Results in bad QC. I noticed the new Federal match 22lr have less velocity.
If you don't contact Winchester (or any other ammunition company) with quality issues, then you can be sure they won't do anything about it for you as a customer, and perhaps as a company QC issue as a whole.
What does it take to contact them, especially these days?
Not much more than it takes to post here, in fact.
The only bad Winchester ammo that I've come across has been the white box in .22LR and .22WRM. I called Winchester to alert them of the problem when it kept jamming in my Ruger LCR. Their response was to offer a box of ammo...no acknowledgement of the problem.
The worst of what is speculative about Winchester ammo is exactly what the auto parts chains have done. Then, it was all family men with children. Now, it's all minimum wage employees with no experience with a mid 30's manager and the rest part time retirees.
If there was a question about front drum brakes, who do you think the owner would approach at the counter now? Yup, the old guys. Im certain most of those are gone at ammo plants, a few knowledgeable mid age guys adequately compensated and all the rest machine operators who can't set up and just shut it down when it's coming out messed up. When they notice. You don't get guys who start off knowing nothing and after two years do set up and first article for the other guys. Too little consideration and too much stress. Now imagine who's left being told it's gonna be five 12 hour shifts, they are on evenings, and Saturdays extra, just to make quota because management keeps moving the goal posts and getting sold to another holding company who demands even higher profitability.
Quickest way to make numbers is ship more ammo regardless of quality. You can't cut wages or overhead in America, you work them into the ground and hire newbies to fill the vacancies out of who you get to apply in a market where everybody has worked for Winchester but the plant staff has less than five years average experience on the floor. And Management does not care.
No, it wasn't Winchester I worked at, but one factory to the other, it's all the same when you ask around. And guns blowing up? Liability and lost lawsuits prevent that, it's more profitable to make cheap but good ammo than have your product poison more people than cure. That's a different discussion.