Bill of sale/contract when selling guns?

[ford8nr]

I always ASK for a bill of sale FROM the seller. Proves I bought the gun and from who in case it would ever turn up as stolen. I also keep a print out of the for sale ad if there was one.

 

[ilbob]

In Illinois one is legally required to keep a record of the transaction for ten years, even a private sale.

In any case, why would you not expect some kind of record of the sale of a valuable item like a firearm?

No person engaging in a legitimate transaction involving something of value is going to object to there being a record of the transaction. If they do, it is probably best to not make the transaction IMO.

I don't think it needs to be anything elaborate like some kind of "official" bill of sale. Just some kind of written record.

 

[CatManDo]

I use my iPhone to take a picture of the buyers photo ID, either the Drivers License or CC License. Stays in my Firearms records on a thumb drive.

 

[yzguy87]

I ask to see a drivers license to make sure they're an Ohio resident and ask them if they're legal but that's it. I don't record info.

 

[oldbear]

I use generic B.O.S. Protects both of us if anything happens.

 

[Red Wind]

I’m going to give a “Depends” on if the gun is directly traceable to me. If I bought it new and it can be traced directly to me if ever used in a crime, then I want to know what direction to send the police in. If it’s an old gun that’s been around a while with a high probably of a broken ownership trail or if I bought it cash and carry, then I’ll sell it the same way.

Canada has had a handgun registry since 1934. According to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) not one handgun crime has ever been solved using the Registry , except "perhaps", tangentially. That is for 82 long years.

So, Twiki, your odds are very high that you will never have to worry about sitting in the Graybar Hotel or having grief over your gun sales. IMHO, of course.

See this.

. I have however been involved in the investigation of countless offences such as robbery, where handguns were the weapon of choice and I must point out Sir, that the firearms registry did not assist in solving one, nor obviously in deterring one. The reasons that the firearms registry is so highly ineffectual are, I believe obvious, but basically it affects the wrong people, law abiding citizens and not criminals.

 

[Red Wind]

I use my iPhone to take a picture of the buyers photo ID, either the Drivers License or CC License. Stays in my Firearms records on a thumb drive.

Amazing! No stranger will ever take a photo of my personal ID in a private gun sale. This is still America... for now.

 

[CajunBass]

I ask for the same thing I'd ask for if I was selling a toaster.

 

[Decoy80]

I've bought,sold,and or traded a few times in the last 3 decades. I've yet to have a problem but have had second thoughts a time or two. I called my Sheriff's office and they were happy to run the serial numbers in both cases I can recall.They came back clean and I was glad they were happy to help. Should I have kept records, probably so, in hindsight , not the law. Be careful whenever you are dealing with stranger's you don't know.

 

[grampajack]

Interesting reactions and good points from both sides. I have a few things to add.

I agree that I would not want someone keeping information like my DL #, or CCW permit #. Or even my address for that matter. BUT, I don't see anything wrong with giving people my name, and acknowledging in writing that I bought the gun. If I'm the buyer, it helps me with liability, as well. Let's say I'm cruising down the road, and a routine traffic stop leads to the SN being run (and yes this happens, not all cops are pro 2A and some can even be downright jerks, like everyone else). If that gun comes up stolen, then I want the seller's signature on a piece of paper. That's pretty strong evidence that I wasn't the one who stole it. You'd be amazed what police can do with a name, date, and general location.

A few people here seem to be under the impression that there's no liability selling a gun you bought second hand, i.e. isn't "registered" to you. Apparently you people don't watch dateline. You would be amazed at how easy it is for police to trace a gun's history just through the people who owned it. I've seen cases where Saturday night specials have been traced through half a dozen owners over a twenty year period. And you don't want to be the poor fool where the buck stops, if you know what I mean.

Frank, I would like to hear more about how we can protect ourselves from the liability of someone hurting themselves or someone else, either intentionally or unintentionally. For example, let's say the gun goes kaboom. Maybe it was a manufacturing weakness, or maybe they were using shadetree reloads. Another situation would be a murder or shooting. We know from past shootings that the victims have sued the gun store who sold the gun. Is there anything preventing them from suing a private seller?

So, in your professional opinion, is there any wording we could put into the bill of sale to protect ourselves from that sort of thing?

Also, I have the suspicion that if the bill of sale isn't worded correctly we could be opening ourselves up to liability, where it might have been better to say nothing at all. For example, if we have a clause about them using the gun illegally, like in a shooting, could that be used to say that we were accepting the liability for that type of thing? Or that we were aware of the possibility and didn't do proper due diligence?

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Frank, I would like to hear more about how we can protect ourselves from the liability of someone hurting themselves or someone else, either intentionally or unintentionally. For example, let's say the gun goes kaboom. Maybe it was a manufacturing weakness, or maybe they were using shadetree reloads....

Maybe. Appropriate language in the bill of sale might help. The details will be very much a matter of state law.

...Is there anything preventing them from suing a private seller?...

the short answer is "no." The best you can do is do you due diligence and pay attention so that you might have a rock solid defense on the back end.

And, depending on how much property/assets you have to protect, good liability insurance, including perhaps a generous umbrella policy, would be a good idea.

See also post 41.

 

[grampajack]

Maybe. Appropriate language in the bill of sale might help. The details will be very much a matter of state law.

the short answer is "no." The best you can do is do you due diligence and pay attention so that you might have a rock solid defense on the back end.

And, depending on how much property/assets you have to protect, good liability insurance, including perhaps a generous umbrella policy, would be a good idea.

See also post 41.

What do you think of the bill of sale I posted above? Can I do anything to make it more solid without having to go so far that no one would sign it?

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I ask for the same thing I'd ask for if I was selling a toaster.

Same here. I do not ask for one, though if someone asked for one for a gun I was selling them, I wouldn't have any issues giving them one.

I certainly would never give out my personal information to a complete stranger (assuming I met them at a gun show or online to set up a FTF sale) for them to have on hand. And I most certainly would never allow someone to take a photograph of me if they were selling me the firearm.

I wouldn't insult or demean a person for asking, but if they insisted, I would politely decline to purchase it and be on my way.

 

[Frank Ettin]

What do you think of the bill of sale I posted above? Can I do anything to make it more solid without having to go so far that no one would sign it?

I'm sorry, but that goes beyond what I do here. Providing that sort of advice on a specific matter would constitute entering into a lawyer-client relationship and raise a number of professional conduct and ethical issues -- including whether I'm licensed to practice in your State. Plus, as a matter of professional responsibility I would not offer an opinion on those points without thoroughly researching the law in your State.

I, and other lawyers who post here, provide general information on legal topics, but we do not offer legal advice on specific matters.

 

[grampajack]

Same here. I do not ask for one, though if someone asked for one for a gun I was selling them, I wouldn't have any issues giving them one.

I certainly would never give out my personal information to a complete stranger (assuming I met them at a gun show or online to set up a FTF sale) for them to have on hand. And I most certainly would never allow someone to take a photograph of me if they were selling me the firearm.

I wouldn't insult or demean a person for asking, but if they insisted, I would politely decline to purchase it and be on my way.

Same here. I wouldn't let any take a photo of my ID or record any information from it. But would you have a problem with them having your name? That's pretty much public information, so I don't see how it could lead to identity theft in and of itself. Shoot, even you address and phone number are more or less public, same with email address, and I'm not even asking for any of that.

 

[grampajack]

Yea, I also forgot to mention. If you have the seller's name, phone number, and general idea of where they live, then the police can find them easily. That's really all you need. Even if they were using a burner phone, the police could likely find them anyways just based on their name and the date you sold them the gun.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

But would you have a problem with them having your name?

No, I'm sure we would exchange names when we met. No problem there at all.

If you have the seller's name, phone number, and general idea of where they live, then the police can find them easily.

That is not something that I take into consideration.
I will do what the law requires, which in Arkansas is nothing. As long as I have no reason to believe they are a prohibited person and I have no reason to believe they are not a resident of Arkansas, I can sell with no paperwork or identifying information.
I will follow the law and would never advocate for anyone breaking it. I realize that people in some states are required to get certain information when selling a gun, and in their case I would certainly do so.

That being said, I would use common sense when selling to a stranger. If I suspected that the person was dishonest regarding the purchase or seemed shady, I would walk away from the deal. I do believe that we owe it to society and to all gun owners to use our heads.

 

[grampajack]

Since this thread was more specific to whether you do or don't write up a bill of sale, I started another one specifically for those who DO. So the discussion there won't be IF you do a bill of sale or not, but HOW you go about it. So, again, that thread already presupposes that you do use a bill of sale, and is meant to discuss specifics of how we can go about doing it.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=808418

 

[george burns]

IMHO you do whatever you're state requires. Personally, in todays world, I don't wnat any of my information sitting in someone's home who I don't even know. I have no idea nor do I need or want to wonder what , if anything someone with access to any information with my name on it, could or would do. After having been hacked and going through a nightmare of having to change every account and credit card, along with checking with the IRS, and Mortgage company, "people can do all sorts of damage" even borrow money on your home, without you knowing, "if they are good enough". I don't give anyone anything.
If you can get someones SS# and name, you can get just about everything you need to become them. If the guy wants to see my license, thet's fine, but I don't give anyone my ID anymore, and most people will understand because they have seen what happens when you do.
The people who hacked us, even went into a bank, and pretended to be my wife and I and added another person to our accounts, the FBI had them on video. You have to be naiive in todays world to give anyone your personel information. No gun is that important that it can cause you 6 months woth of work and money to fix your life after someone messes with it, better to just get the gun from a gun store or likeminded person who get's it.

 

[grampajack]

I have no intention of asking for personally identifiable information. All I want is their name and signature. I also look at their CCW permit, but I never record any information from it. I don't even ask for an address. Basically what I ask for is less than what is already public knowledge.

 

[hdwhit]

When I saw this thread it intrigued me since I have never sold a gun casually. When I buy a gun it is because I have a need for (or intense interest in) and that means it, like my cable modem, will be something that my estate will have to worry about. The few times I have found I no longer wanted a gun, I ended up giving it away, but the recipient was always someone I knew well and who I had seen pass the background check when they had bought guns commercially, so I never gave the transfer much thought. I appreciate all the good information and specific cautions presented in this discussion.

 

[grampajack]

When I saw this thread it intrigued me since I have never sold a gun casually. When I buy a gun it is because I have a need for (or intense interest in) and that means it, like my cable modem, will be something that my estate will have to worry about. The few times I have found I no longer wanted a gun, I ended up giving it away, but the recipient was always someone I knew well and who I had seen pass the background check when they had bought guns commercially, so I never gave the transfer much thought. I appreciate all the good information and specific cautions presented in this discussion.

When I sell a gun, I have to see proof of a clean background. CCW permit, military ID, police ID, firefighter ID, medical license, anything really that necessitates a clean background. If they can't offer evidence that they're capable of passing a simple background check, then I want to do an FFL transfer. Most people are okay with that, and the ones who aren't get sent packing. Most people in my state, however, have a CCW. I've not run into many situations where the buyer didn't have one, save for military people.

 

[Ryanxia]

When I sell a gun, I have to see proof of a clean background. CCW permit, military ID, police ID, firefighter ID, medical license, anything really that necessitates a clean background. If they can't offer evidence that they're capable of passing a simple background check, then I want to do an FFL transfer. Most people are okay with that, and the ones who aren't get sent packing. Most people in my state, however, have a CCW. I've not run into many situations where the buyer didn't have one, save for military people.

I hope you tell them this up front before you meet (if you talk to them prior to seeing them face to face). Although I have a CCW I probably wouldn't want to deal with a seller like that and would be disappointed if I made a trip for nothing.

 

[grampajack]

I hope you tell them this up front before you meet (if you talk to them prior to seeing them face to face). Although I have a CCW I probably wouldn't want to deal with a seller like that and would be disappointed if I made a trip for nothing.

They're told ahead of time. I only had one guy show up and claim he forgot it. I didn't sell him the gun. It's that simple.

I also don't record any information from their ID. A quick glance just to make sure it's the right person. Just about everyone in this state has a CCW. We've had it for a long, long time, and it's not hard or expensive to get. There's really no excuse for not having one here.

 

[David Blane]

A CCW.... Yeah, that's exercising a Right alright..