BP question

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wmgeorge said:
I am not about to test this, but you'd think with a patched ball just ahead of the gap the pressure would take the path of least resistance and move the ball down the barrel. The steel in both my black powder guns .50 Cal, is at .200 inch thick surrounding the ball, measured just now. Pistol .200, rifle .230 inches.

So were the bulged and burst barrels modern steel or from the Civil war days?
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Nope. The patched ball will act like a barrel obstruction, just like a plug of snow or a stuck wad in a shotgun will behave like a barrel obstruction. This type of barrel obstruction cannot get out of the way fast enough to prevent an over pressure event.

I have no proof of this, but I suspect ringed barrels with Black Powder were not limited to the iron used in barrels at the time of the Civil War. I'm pretty sure later steel barrels could be ringed, or even burst, if an over pressure event caused by air between the powder and the projectile happened.
 
From what I am gathering from info found online is BP has its own oxygen supplied in the the mixture so when its packed it just expands X much when ignited. When you allow it more oxygen by leaving the powder unpacked or not compressed it expands much more than X.
If the barrel was made from modern moly or higher carbon alloy it would be fine. But who
knows for sure what steel is in your BP rifle barrel and why take a chance?
 
A friend loaned his TC Hawken. The shooter shot it til it got foul, gave up on a ball halfway down and pulled the trigger. It bulged the modern steel barrel.
TC replaced it but friend said it never shot as well as Ol' 1250.
 
wmgeorge said:
From what I am gathering from info found online is BP has its own oxygen supplied in the the mixture so when its packed it just expands X much when ignited. When you allow it more oxygen by leaving the powder unpacked or not compressed it expands much more than X.
If the barrel was made from modern moly or higher carbon alloy it would be fine. But who
knows for sure what steel is in your BP rifle barrel and why take a chance?
Click to expand...
Potasiumnitrate carries oxidizer.
 
Do you have a scale? I never trust a volume measure until I've confirmed it's calibrated well with the powder I use.

But I make my own black powder, press it into pucks on a hydraulic press, break the pucks up and then grind in a ceramic coffee grinder. I then grade it out using different mesh size screens. My process produces pretty consistent results but I still like to weigh out some samples just to make sure. That's pretty important when I shoot something like my Walkers. Overloading one those Uberti Walkers is a good way to wear out a gun fast. Which I've done.
 
You know Gary, I haven't ever done it myself. But the fireworks guys I learned some of the techniques I use to make my powder use a cylinder to test lift, since that's a big concern of theirs with their hobby. I don't know that I'm familiar with a Powder Prover, how does that work?
 
Jack Ryan said:
I don't know why discussions like this come up with EVERY POSSIBLE COMBINATION all claimed to be OK to do by SOMEONE. Why even ask it? When you get ready to shoot, you are going to use what ever is in the can you HAVE any way and you know what? It is all gonna be ok.
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Because we like to shoot muzzleloaders, we like muzzleloaders, we like to talk about them, and about shooting them... it’s just that simple. Obviously the muzzleloader forums aren’t burning up the internet these days so if all we have to talk about is powder granulation then I’m okay with it.

We’re all, mostly older gents and recruitment to the black powder arts is non too great. There may come a time in the not too distant future when this knowledge is not available in any form. I just hope I never see that time.
 
wmgeorge said:
I am not about to test this, but you'd think with a patched ball just ahead of the gap the pressure would take the path of least resistance and move the ball down the barrel. The steel in both my black powder guns .50 Cal, is at .200 inch thick surrounding the ball, measured just now. Pistol .200, rifle .230 inches.

So were the bulged and burst barrels modern steel or from the Civil war days?
Click to expand...
Seems that when Fadala was blowing up the copper tubing in one of his books the ball was some distance off the charge before it became a catastrophic event. I imagine the inertia of the ball as opposed by that of the rapidly expanding gasses would come into play.
 
woodnbow said:
Because we like to shoot muzzleloaders, we like muzzleloaders, we like to talk about them, and about shooting them... it’s just that simple. Obviously the muzzleloader forums aren’t burning up the internet these days so if all we have to talk about is powder granulation then I’m okay with it.

We’re all, mostly older gents and recruitment to the black powder arts is non too great. There may come a time in the not too distant future when this knowledge is not available in any form. I just hope I never see that time.
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These kids don't have the nerve and ingenuity to make a calculated seat of the pants guess and just "try one" to actually learn something for their self once in a while. You can load one up and try it like we did easier than go inside, turn on the computer, wait for it to log on, post a question, wait for an answer from someone you never heard of or met and most likely never did anything but mock back what he read from someone else in another basement some where...

No matter what they are talking about on the internet, eventually it boils down to loading up and pulling the trigger. It is all just who do you TRUST? Mr. Anonymous on the internet? Or your self? That is what a MAN needs to learn more than if FFF is ok in a FF gun.
 
I dunno, I’m not sure it’s “this generation” or “kids these days”... Some people are just naturally cautious. I have a son and a granddaughter like that, he’s an engineer and I bet she becomes one. Both of them analyze the crap out of everything, gather information, ponder, and analyze some more. Usually when they finally act they have a fair chance of success. Her sister is more like me, we tend to leap before we look and trust intuition, skill, and luck to save the day. Sometimes it works. I still have all of my digits and limbs after having been in harms way and banged around more often than I care to think about.:thumbup:
 
The kids and all of us just have faster access to the same information today as we did that was published in books years ago. So some kids today are close to zero being useful citizens, living in mommy and daddies basement and I know one right now. But there are other kids who are smart and motivated that Will succeed at whatever they decide to do. Asking questions today on the internet is the same as asking your circle of friends, say 40 years ago. You learn by asking questions. Why would you blow your hand off by trial and error, as Its a Man thing? No you learn from mistakes and knowledge that others have made published or otherwise.
I consider this Forum to be full of experienced and knowledgeable folks, not Anonymous by any means.
Thats why I stepped up and became a Contributing Member.
 
Im young...very young compared to most people on the forum. I get along more with you all than with my own generation. I honestly cant stand the bulk of most people my age. I cant stand how lazy, over privileged, whiny, and overall smug most of my generation has become. Im looked at as the weirdo just because i respect my elders, have morals and manners, don't talk back to my parents....and because i pay my way and live on my own instead of making mommy and daddy pay my way through life. Some people my age say "well lifes harder now...." And i just point out "....well im doing it...so are some others just like me". Ive been told im an 80 year old man stuck in a 20's year olds body. Aaaaaaand...ive yet to meet anyone in my generation into black powder...all they want is tactical plastic guns they see on video games. Oh well...you all accept me even though im young right? Lol
 
TheOutlawKid said:
Im young...very young compared to most people on the forum. I get along more with you all than with my own generation. I honestly cant stand the bulk of most people my age. I cant stand how lazy, over privileged, whiny, and overall smug most of my generation has become. Im looked at as the weirdo just because i respect my elders, have morals and manners, don't talk back to my parents....and because i pay my way and live on my own instead of making mommy and daddy pay my way through life. Some people my age say "well lifes harder now...." And i just point out "....well im doing it...so are some others just like me". Ive been told im an 80 year old man stuck in a 20's year olds body. Aaaaaaand...ive yet to meet anyone in my generation into black powder...all they want is tactical plastic guns they see on video games. Oh well...you all accept me even though im young right? Lol
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Glad to have you aboard.
 
The problem with black powder is there are tons of "experts" on the internet.

FWIW- here's the actual skinny. Yes, you can substitute different "f" if done with some common sense. Just like smokeless, start low, work back up. In the North South Skirmish Association, many, many of us shoot 58cal muskets with 3f and that's completely against conventional thought. I shoot a 69 smoothbore with 3f. That said, we don't get stupid like many folks and think if some is good then lots more is best. When I hear of charges in the 90+ range, I wonder just how much of that powder is blowing out the muzzle and contributing nothing to the velocity other than to serve as some additional resistance to motion like the ball. My competition load for a 58 is 44g 3f and it will cut one ragged hole at 50yds, no need to burn more powder.

Now as for the ball not seated on the charge. Yes, you "can" ring a barrel but here's the conditions- ball seated about 12in or more from the powder, lots and lots of powder, ball not fully rammed because of fouling and that's an additional cause of pressure spikes. Often if the ball won't seat, the fouling is not in balance with the lube. That is a critical component to shooting minies well and in a round ball gun, it will keep you from ramming the next shot without using a hammer. If it don't fit, for heaven's sakes, don't force it, find out why it don't fit. To make this more clear, the ball won't go down because the bore is fouled. STOP and fix the problem and correct the load. Pull a trigger on that one and it is a pipe bomb of your own stupidity.

A little bit of space won't be any problem at all if the charge is a reasonable amount and the distance minor. Look at the chamber of a Sharps. Lots and lots of space in the breech block even if you fill the chamber to the end. No kabooms there. My Sharps is perfectly happy with a 40gr 3f charge and shoots almost single holes at 50. I measured the chamber capacity at 100gr, that leaves 60gr of "space" not counting the breech block. Then there are "patent breeches" in some muskets. That "stepped" chamber makes it entirely possible to use a small charge and not be able to seat a ball on it. Case in point- many of the "Zouave" repops. I have one with the patent breech and I can't seat a minie all the way down. If I just ram it till it hits that "lip" of the breech, it's all good. The gun shoots 2in at 50yd with 40gr 3f Swiss and that's with no serious load development and issue sights.

Upshot here- the seat the ball on the powder thing is there because there are lots of yahoos out there who will do something stupid. The substitution of grades of powder is possible IF you approach it with caution and reason. If the ball won't go all the way down, safely unload the gun and find out why.
 
wmgeorge said:
The kids and all of us just have faster access to the same information today as we did that was published in books years ago. So some kids today are close to zero being useful citizens, living in mommy and daddies basement and I know one right now. But there are other kids who are smart and motivated that Will succeed at whatever they decide to do. Asking questions today on the internet is the same as asking your circle of friends, say 40 years ago. You learn by asking questions. Why would you blow your hand off by trial and error, as Its a Man thing? No you learn from mistakes and knowledge that others have made published or otherwise.
I consider this Forum to be full of experienced and knowledgeable folks, not Anonymous by any means.
Thats why I stepped up and became a Contributing Member.
Click to expand...
Time for me to do that as well.

TheOutlawKid said:
Im young...very young compared to most people on the forum. I get along more with you all than with my own generation. I honestly cant stand the bulk of most people my age. I cant stand how lazy, over privileged, whiny, and overall smug most of my generation has become. Im looked at as the weirdo just because i respect my elders, have morals and manners, don't talk back to my parents....and because i pay my way and live on my own instead of making mommy and daddy pay my way through life. Some people my age say "well lifes harder now...." And i just point out "....well im doing it...so are some others just like me". Ive been told im an 80 year old man stuck in a 20's year olds body. Aaaaaaand...ive yet to meet anyone in my generation into black powder...all they want is tactical plastic guns they see on video games. Oh well...you all accept me even though im young right? Lol
Click to expand...
Hell yes... there are others too. My son’s the same. I’ve told him that he’s older than I am in many ways.
 
Early on a friend more knowledge than I taught me to mark the ram rod with two marks, empty and full. I don’t shoot rifle but have two pistols. The rod is marked the same way.
 
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