Bringing a handgun to a rifle fight.

[SSN Vet]

I'm a bit stumped to see that in the latest batch of mass shootings, nearby LEOs have successfully neutralized the threat within seconds of arriving on scene. And as far as I can tell, these were regular patrol officers (not SWAT) with sidearms. And in the El Passo incident, the BG even had body armor.

This seems to defy the conventional wisdom that one opponent armed with a rifle will easily dominate another with a side arm and I thought it might make for an interesting discussion (so please don't go postal and get it shut down in 2 minutes).

As an "opening salvo" I submit the following explanations:

>A well trained officer with a side are trumps a video game trained opponent with a carbine.
>They are responding in numbers.
>Mass shooters run out of steam at the first sign of armed opposition .... either due to cowardice, a death wish or they just lose their stomach in the face of what they've done.
>The responding officers are "motivated and focused" where the BG is a troubled nut job wandering around looking for easy random targets.

I have profound respect for the responding officers who run toward the sound of gunfire (knowing the difference between the sound of a rifle and a hand gun) armed only with a side arm. And to think that they do it for complete strangers and despite the fact that their profession is disparaged and disrespected (and it's not even a very good paying job) makes me dumbstruck.

Any insight or thoughts on how these responding officers are so successful when they are apparently outgunned.

 

[Tommygunn]

I think the Dayton shooter had body armor, while the El Paso guy didnt.

Also, it's interesting to me everyone complains that the bad guys with EBRs "outgun" the police, but here (Dayton) the cops with handguns took down the psycho in a moment, saving lives that would have been lost had they not responded quickly. Tactics and training can be more important than gun type.

 

[edwardware]

Mindset, skillset, toolset.

As per usual, the single greatest advantage to be had in a fight is the mindset that allows a person to focus on target engagement. It's really difficult to win a fight with a man who's decided that he's going to win or die trying.

Skillset let's they mindset move quickly and efficiently.

Toolset is tertiary. Also, a rifle offers definite advantage vs a sidearm, but less so as engagement range closes.

 

[Sarge7402]

Intestinal fortitude something the coward/liar in Florida lacked

 

[dodo bird]

Long guns take time to retrieve from patrol vehicles. I am guessing this is a big factor when you are in a no time situation.

 

[theothermike]

I would imagine the BG in these situations would be in the middle of an intense adrenalin rush. This could be a huge detriment if you don't understand how your body reacts to it. Having been in a few life or death situations myself (not self defence related) i know that basic functions become challenging after the initial rush wears off.

 

[Havok7416]

I would think the chances of one person with a long gun looking AT YOU as you rush up would be pretty low. Thus, the responding officer/people have a huge advantage and are likely to put rounds into the attacker before they are even aware of it. This could quite possibly end an exchange of gunfire before it begins.

 

[Texas10mm]

Big BRASS balls. People who understand things like Duty and Honor.

Something the Coward from Broward lacked.

 

[AlexanderA]

The Dayton police chief made a point of how important it was to have "patrol rifles" in the officers' cars. Whether they were deployed in this instance doesn't particularly matter. Here, the key factor was time -- the instant response was more important than the particular weapons used.

 

[RKRCPA]

I would think the chances of one person with a long gun looking AT YOU as you rush up would be pretty low. Thus, the responding officer/people have a huge advantage and are likely to put rounds into the attacker before they are even aware of it. This could quite possibly end an exchange of gunfire before it begins.

I believe this is a big factor. The shooter will be focused on something other than the responder, making it easier to get shots on target. It's not the same as standing in a parking lot shooting at each other where the rifle would be a huge advantage..

 

[desidog]

After seeing the surveillance video from Dayton, it appears the shooter used an AR15 pistol with a 10"bbl and an arm brace. Technically not a rifle...

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Training and numbers can make a big difference.

 

[shafter]

A well trained, experienced officer has a pretty big advantage over a young video game commando, especially when said commando is focused on something else beside the officer. The current message to officers is to go in hard and fast and neutralize the threat. So far this seems to be working but I wonder if this tactic will change if there's ever a shooting where the shooter anticipates this and ambushes the officers on their way in.

I haven't followed these latest shootings enough to know if the responding officer's had long guns or not, but it's becoming less and less common for patrol cars to not be equipped with an AR-15. If available, I can't imagine an officer not taking the extra two seconds to lock and load.

 

[JONWILL]

Not sure where he was shot. Back, Side? Multiple hits or one that took him down?

I am just glad they were able to take him down before he killed more people

 

[roscoe]

Just a note: when travelling across Europe, it is pretty routine to see normal officers patrolling with assault rifles or subguns . I saw officers with Steyr AUGs on the beat in Brussels, with CZ 805s (I think) in Prague, MP5s in Paris and Berlin, etc. European cities have long been targets of various stripes of terrorism, depending on your definition of terrorism, of course (IRA, Baader–Meinhof, Armenian Nationalists, Action Directe, Black September, Islamic State, etc.) and the police there don't seem to want to be undergunned.

Just my interpretation of the situations described - it is all about information. The police can identify the shooter because he is making all the loud noise. He is less likely to be able to identify them in the confusion of the moving crowd. Hence, they are able to close to handgun range, and probably from multiple directions.

 

[george burns]

Intestinal fortitude something the coward/liar in Florida lacked

You mean Ohio, or El Passo?

 

[Deanimator]

It wasn't a problem for Alvin York.

 

[Texas10mm]

After seeing the surveillance video from Dayton, it appears the shooter used an AR15 pistol with a 10"bbl and an arm brace. Technically not a rifle...

The news conference where the police chief tried to explain the difference to the media was pretty funny.

 

[GEM]

If it was an AR pistol and it was shouldered, look forward to a redefinition of all such from the ATF. They will now be SBRs and subject to the NFA rules.

 

[CDW4ME]

Helps that the police are shooting something bigger than a pocket gun.
I will be too, if I have to defend myself.

 

[John Joseph]

The responding officers were able to defeat the perp's body armor with their handguns.
That also defies convention.

 

[Havok7416]

The responding officers were able to defeat the perp's body armor with their handguns.
That also defies convention.

I'm guessing it wasn't actually body armor. Some sort of load bearing vest perhaps. That makes far more sense than standard FMJ or JHP pistol rounds penetrating any kind of armor. Early reports have gotten that wrong in other shootings also.

 

[bearcreek]

This seems to defy the conventional wisdom that one opponent armed with a rifle will easily dominate another with a side arm

That is conventional "wisdom" mostly on anonymous online gun forums, worth pretty much what you paid for it.

Any insight or thoughts on how these responding officers are so successful when they are apparently outgunned.

Another thing that's popular on online forums is for people to consider 25 yards or so to be "long" range for a handgun. A full size 9mm is fully capable of accurate head shot hits at 75-100+ yards in the right hands. I have no idea if this was a factor in either of these cases but it's something to keep in mind.

 

[bearcreek]

The responding officers were able to defeat the perp's body armor with their handguns.
That also defies convention.

I hadn't heard this. Do you have a link?

 

[guyfromohio]

After seeing the surveillance video from Dayton, it appears the shooter used an AR15 pistol with a 10"bbl and an arm brace. Technically not a rifle...

Lovely....if that’s true, you can bet the BATFE will solidify its position on braces very soon and Trump will offer them up like the Bump Stocks....