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Calibre Selection and Wound Ballistics

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Strykervet

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The debate about calibre selection, 9mm vs .40 vs .45 vs 10mm vs... It goes on and on, fast and light, slow and heavy, sectional densities, hollowpoints vs fmj's and so on. So what do they actually do? Where is the real data? What IS the best calibre and bullet selection? See what this guy has to say.

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

To sum it up, he carried a 9mm most of his life until he worked in a morgue where he switched to .45ACP with hollowpoints for reasons he mentions. You can't get better data, and there isn't a better internet guru on the subject that I've found. I just thought I'd pass on this information as I found it so informative and rare.

I settled on 10mm myself, but mostly because it is a flexible round to load. You also get 10 in a "small" G29 and it is a flat shooting accurate round. It generally ranks between the .357mag and the .41mag in power. Best bang for the buck as it were. If the 10mm didn't exist, I'd probably use the .45.
 
Each caliber has its place and use. While large caliber handguns are more effective they are also larger pistols with fewer rounds, recoil heavier, greater muzzle blast, and more difficult to conceal and carry comfortably.

If you can't or will not carry your gun it matters not what caliber it is.

Most self defense situations involving firearms do not involve anyone being shot or the gun being fired or anyone being hit it when it is. Most bad guys don't want to be shot with anything and the mere fact that their intended victim can seriously hurt them deters any further aggression. Having a hole put in them even from a small caliber usually isn't worth the benefit they'd receive from a successful assault even if they assumed they'd survive. This isn't true of persons under the influence or the mentally unstable though.

If there's a high likelihood of danger like you are making a night deposit at the bank then carry the largest caliber you can. If you know there's going to be trouble then add a rifle or shotgun.
 
The commentary in question has been discussed on THR before.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=207527

If you don't want to wade through 13 pages check out post 102 on page 5.

For an even shorter version, ask yourself how a person who, by his own admission, ""mainly get(s) the skeletal remains and the ones that are so decomposed that the ME can't do much with them", is somehow able to make relative comparisons of wound paths and temporary cavity damage from bodies that "the ME can't do much with"?

Bottom line, if were even half as simple as he tries to make it sound, this debate would have ended decades ago and we'd all know the name of the researcher who proved which of the service pistol class handgun calibers was clearly the best performer.
 
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we all know "shot placement is what counts", so it's redundant to mention that.


having said that, i prefer 40cal, 45acp, or 10mm for the simple fact that they tend to yaw off course much less than 9mm after passing hard barriers such as auto windshields.
 
When people finally realize that all the service caliber behave very similar in actual shooting, they can worry more about THEIR abilities and less about the tool they are using.
 
A few times a year someone digs this old "report" up. It has been discredited several times on about every forum but keeps popping up as someone who has not read or heard of it before takes it for good coin.

tipoc
 
All depends on a shooter's ability and shot placement, rather than size of the bullet. I prefer the 45 in how it shoots but I carry 9mm b/c of cost giving the ability to practice more.
 
How has it been discredited? The guy works in a morgue. He isn't trying to sell anyone off on anything, he says that mulitple times and tries to maintain an academic atmosphere. I think the information contained in there was good information and it goes with other things I know, so I have less reason to doubt it. There is nothing to discredit, he goes over that too (you did read all of it, right? You know he can be reached in Atlanta, right? He can be looked up online...).

I studied math and physics and see this debate through those lenses. But nothing the educated can do to convince the uneducated, or one discipline another, ever seems to be enough. Something more final on the subject was needed.

So I thought bringing this article up would be good, and if it is a rehash, then so be it. The post referred to above is from 2006, and judging from the number of pages, it got a conversation going and sparked interest. Many people haven't read this before, and if they don't know to look for it, how will they find it in that 2006 thread? If you don't want to discuss the body of work I was referring to, just go elsewhere please.

I know what they guy wrote is long, but I gather from the posts here nobody actually read it all, so how can you have much of a say without reading it? It is about the wounds he sees from different gunshots in a morgue in Atlanta and what they do and how they behave.
 
If you had followed the link JohnKSa kindly posted for you, and read it, then you would have found out why it was discredited. Lighten up there True Believer, and relax a little and see where the discussion goes.
 
Ok stryker vet
here's some prospective
we are talking about thousandths of an inch
and foot pounds of force (BTW a boxers punch packs more foot pounds than a .45...)

All of which are POINTLESS unless/until they TOUCH something vital

One shot stops are horse whooy, and have been proven so time and time again.
 
When people finally realize that all the service caliber behave very similar in actual shooting, they can worry more about THEIR abilities and less about the tool they are using.

Amen!

And in handguns, I pretty much rely on .38 special most of the time, and I'm perfectly content. I'm more concerned about keeping my mind focused, and not one bit on caliber.
 
How has it been discredited? The guy works in a morgue.
Working in a morgue definitely allows a guy to see a lot of things he might otherwise never see.

But remember this:
Merely working in a morgue, or doing an autopsy on a dead guy, still leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

You might see before you a person who is dead, a person who received numerous gunshot wounds.

But there are many things that you will not know:

How quickly the deceased stopped what he was doing after being shot?

How many rounds did the deceased substain before he stopped attacking his target?

Did the deceased stop because of the wounds received or because of some other reason?

How many rounds did the shooter fire before hitting the target?

How easy was if for the shooter to make hits and follow-up hits?

Was there any kind of malfunction for the shooter or the deceased?

At what range was the firefight?

What type of ammo was used (+P, +P+, short barrel self defence, Speer Gold Dots, Winchester, etc....)?

Barrel length of the weapon used?


ECT...


Merely examining a body in the morgue leaves a lot of questions unanswered.
 
To sum it up, he carried a 9mm most of his life until he worked in a morgue where he switched to .45ACP with hollowpoints
The guy works in a morgue.
In statistics, we call that "selection bias." He was in a position to examine the remains of attackers killed, not attackers stopped. And not even all attackers killed.

Me, I'm concerned with attackers stopped. +1 JohnKSa.

(BTW, I also love 10mm, but I'm only slightly less happy with .45 or 9mm, with good loads.)
 
Strykervet, I too have a degree in physics and though I've only been "on the scene" as far as firearms go for a short while, I can tell you that if you keep digging what you are going to find first is an FBI report regarding penetration that will have you convinced for a while that as long as it will penetrate 12", get the biggest caliber you can. You will see reports about hydrostatic pressure (oh dear me, I dropped the h-bomb) dropping small cattle with a shot to the hind quarters and causing brain damage. You will sooner or later realize that a .22LR fired from a rifle will penetrate 12" with the right ammo. You may even go the other route and start reading about frangible bullets to prevent overpenetration. There are a billion theories out there about which bullets do the best job, but in the end, it's the one that hits the target.

If you want to learn a LOT about ballistic advantages, ask the hunting guys how important shot placement is. They are the ones that see the real effects of bullets on living tissue regularly. They argue a lot over caliber too, but the ones that tend to argue the most tend to be the ones that use marginal shots, rather than marginal calibers.

I'm not trying to "school" you or anything like that, but alot of the guys that have been posting here, myself included, have read that article and many others as well, several times. We do try to keep current on magic bullet theories, even though we know it is a fruitless pursuit. I particularly like linear penetration modeling and comparing my model with results from the field, but when it comes to what I choose for self defense...

#1 Minimize the risk of needing a defensive arm.
#2 Keep a defensive arm close by, just in case.

For me, I don't care if it's a 12GA shotgun, my 45ACP, my old man's 380 that I inherited, or even my measily little HP22a. I know the limitations of each and how to make the most effective use of any of them. I actually prefer my 10/22 at the house loaded with velociters, b/c I know I can plant 10 rounds right in the thorax of a moving target.

Just my two bits. I already know there are people here who disagree with some or all of what I've said, but I've spoken my piece.
 
Geez, you guys really are missing the point here. And I can tell for all easyg had to say, he didn't read it. The guy goes into all of that. He mentions that sometimes he knows more about some shootings than others. He mentions most 9mm victims are multiple shot victims most times. He can tell which shot killed, but not which order. Distance can be determined. You know what? Go back and read it and then come and discuss it.

I studied statistics too (along with physics, philosophy, history and math, focusing on mathematical analysis with a penchant for the "real" variety). I know about biased samples. I also know a sample is in and of itself biased. What isn't biased is the fact these are humans shot with bullets in the US. The shootings in Atlanta, where he is, are just as good for comparison as ones in LA. The discussion is about what different calibre rounds do to humans in defensive situations, although not everything he sees is defensive.

Basically, I offer this information up to be read and used for your own knowledge and scrutiny. Discuss it if you want to, but there isn't anything to discredit or discuss in general, as that is a very long piece he wrote of unusual content. He clearly points out what areas are gray (and there are a lot of them) and what areas are unknown to him (enough to still walk away with questions). In that respect, unless you just disagree with what he saw (and you can't, you weren't there) then there is nothing really to discuss outside of his observations. Get it? I mean seriously, do you get it? Because he discusses that too, the misinterpretation and misunderstanding of what he is trying to convey.

I just think the information is useful in that for me it fills in an area of defense not previously known to me. I've been in the military, sniper, SDM instructor, etc. You could say I'm pretty good with a firearm. But what I don't know so much about is what happens to humans in defensive situations in our domestic "peacetime" setting using handguns, ie, concealed carry self defense in the US.

And really, unless you work in a (city, county) morgue, you can't know this information. Sure, you can read reports and books, but to get this informations firsthand... Even paramedics, police, crime scene investigators, etc. don't have this kind of information. They have a different, although maybe the same depending, kind of information but always viewed through a different lens. You can find lots of police and paramedic testimony, but not so much morgue. And especially a morgue guy with police experience that is a gun nut too. That is why I find this useful.

I can't defend this anymore really. There isn't anything to defend, just like there isn't anything here to attack. Just read the stuff, don't read the stuff, I don't care either way, I just thought that it would be useful information to those that are interested. If you are interested in this kind of observation, you hit the jackpot. If not, you are probably missing the point.

Because note what I am saying: for all the science, history, experience, and research I have done, I still can't say for sure what works better in a defensive handgun situation (rifles are different, but that is a different story altogether). Simply too many variables, using a marginal weapon that compromises on too many items.

Now as far as using hunting as a comparison... Yeah, sort of, but not really. Deer and bear respond differently when shot (never shot a bear, but I've heard about, when I see 'em they are usually going the other way). Both physiologically psychologically (he goes into that too I think, at least in regards to different human responses). Plus you don't usually use a handgun, in particular defensive calibres. It's just cruel, although some people use them for finishing shots.
 
wow, you studied statistic,
so dust off the book and read the part about sampling
YOU DON'T have a RANDOM sample, NOR a representative sample.

This would be like a ER doctor carrying Glaser Safety Rounds because of the wound (that the guy lived through) was SO nasty and debilitating, Why it stopped the guy right there...

Similar story, just like yours, there are certain flaws with it
 
Ok, I wasn't going to do this again, but I read the ENTIRE contents of deadmeat's commentary.

In the beginning he gives the impression that he has some new and educational insight into caliber effectiveness based on his unique experience working in the morgue.

By the end of the thread he finally admits that his work in the morgue primarily involves badly decayed bodies and that his assessment of which caliber to choose is based on penetration and pretty much nothing else.

Along the way he makes some statements that directly contradict commonly accepted fact (e.g. his assertion about temporary cavity from handgun rounds damaging elastic tissues) and also makes some claims about how many autopsies he has been involved with that don't align well with reality.

The resulting discussion was interesting, but the bottom line is that he had nothing new to offer in spite of his attention-getting thread start. Assessing handgun effectiveness more or less exclusively by equating it to penetration isn't a new or intriguing idea. The only reason his thread got the response it did was because his initial implications about his experience and his job gave a false impression.
 
I read deadhmeat's stuff some time ago.

I also know pathologist and anthropologist on a professional and private level. I worked in a hospital for 8 years. I've seen poor saps with a hole so big you could stick your fist through them from .22 mags to 50 GI that only made big black spots and thus they died from a ripped aorta because of the flight response. I've shot skunks with a .25 acp and couldn't kill them. And have seen men killed with a bb gun.

And back when men rode a horse or drove a wagon or walked. Small calibers going some what fast or big slow ones got the freaking job done. And those men wore thicker farbric than we do today and knew about layering,,,, Not to mention leather.... They died.
 
I hate to evoke my ex but is relevent here so here goes. My ex was a court reporter working for the State. During her tenure in circuit court she had three cases involving death. In two of those cases a .22 mini revolver was the weapon. In the other case, it was a .32 revolver. For what it's worth.
 
I seem to recall that another weak leg of the referenced "report" was that the writer's claimed cadaver gunshot wound observations drastically exceeded the death rate for the entire Atlanta metro area (from all causes).

Having lived many years in Atlanta, I can assure you that aggregate Atlanta deaths are spread across multiple counties, hospitals, and morgues.

It's a BS report.
 
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