Carry Safety

[hso]

If the law is followed, here in TN this would be Criminally Negligent Homicide, a Class E Felony. A jury or judge would probably sentence to probation, but the negligent mother would have a felony record and become a prohibited person.

2010 Tennessee Code :: Title 39 - Criminal Offenses :: Chapter 13 - Offenses Against Person :: :: Part 2 - Criminal Homicide :: :: 39-13-212 - Criminally negligent homicide.

law.justia.com

2021 Tennessee Code
Title 39 - Criminal Offenses
Chapter 13 - Offenses Against Person
Part 2 - Criminal Homicide
§ 39-13-212. Criminally Negligent Homicide​

Universal Citation: TN Code § 39-13-212 (2021)

1. Criminally negligent conduct that results in death constitutes criminally negligent homicide.
2. Criminally negligent homicide is a Class E felony.

 

[JmacD]

Very sad story. I feel bad for the family and especially the mom. It’s beyond worse nightmare material!! That said, this is why I DO NOT pocket carry without a “sticky” or something similar. It’s why I cut the elastic drawstrings on the bottom of my jackets. It’s why I use a sticky inside a belly band( when that’s what I’m using) It’s why I won’t touch certain appendix carry rigs(other carry positions too, but these are most glaring to me). It’s why every single firearm in my possession is loaded whether there is ammo in it or not.

We have a family friend, a young mom, who was preparing to go out for an evening with her husband a couple of years ago, and in the process of adjusting her belly band, triggered her Springfield armory compact 10 mm. Thank goodness!!! She had been target shooting, and had not switched magazines to her normal carry ammo, and all she had in there was Hornady HAP bullets. If It would’ve been something that would’ve expanded, she would’ve been dead before the ambulance arrived! As it was, after having a bullet removed from behind her kneecap, she walked in to church 3 days later. And gave birth to a little girl on Christmas Day a few months later. I tell ya, The whole family did a DRASTIC rethink on holsters in very short order!

I think often of what one of my hunter safety course instructors said 25+ years ago: “when you are holding a firearm, you have the power of life and death in your hands…”

 

[WisBorn]

Scenarios like this is why I sometimes question "Constitutional" or like in Tennessee "Permitless" carry. While I completely agree with the idea that every law abiding citizen should have the right to carry, the idea that anyone, without even the faintest notion of gun safety or gun operation, can carry a loaded gun in a public place, makes me nervous. I can only wonder, if the mother had taken even a 4 hour safety course, if her daughter might still be alive.

Fully agree.

 

[hso]

This is why I wonder, if even the most basic form of training, may have changed the outcome.

Sadly, stupidity/recklessness can't be fixed with training. It may mitigate, but anyone that so fundamentally negligent can't be trained to our idea of a reasonable expectation.

I've been a safety professional for over 30 years and a qualified trainer on simple and complex safety controls most of that time. I have encountered people of average intelligence that are fundamentally reckless, or unaware, or selfish, or no real interest in their or anyone's safety. We could only shunt them off to minimal risk positions. Fortunately these folks are a small part of the population.

 

[buck460XVR]

Sadly, stupidity/recklessness can't be fixed with training. It may mitigate, but anyone that so fundamentally negligent can't be trained to our idea of a reasonable expectation.

Yes.....but, even tho they are similar, there is a difference between stupidity and ignorance. Those that are untrained and uneducated are just ignorant. Those that cannot or refuse to comprehend what they have been taught, are just stupid. I will give the mother the benefit of the doubt that she was just ignorant, and not stupid. Ignorance is simply the lack of knowledge, either in general or about a specific issue or topic. Stupidity refers to the lack of an ordinary level of intelligence, wit, or quickness of mind.

I've been a safety professional for over 30 years and a qualified trainer on simple and complex safety controls most of that time. I have encountered people of average intelligence that are fundamentally reckless, or unaware, or selfish, or no real interest in their or anyone's safety. We could only shunt them off to minimal risk positions. Fortunately these folks are a small part of the population.

Having taught hunter education for many years, I agree to a point. Still, what seems to be common sense to us that are informed, can be something those not informed, cannot envision by themselves. Education changes that.

 

[GBExpat]

Conversely, I knew a lady without a permit that got a concealed weapon citation because her husband left his pistol under the seat and she took the car to the store.

In the early '80s I loaned one of my carry pieces to an old high school buddy with a limited & specific self-defense concern (I have forgotten the details).

He later told me that as he was driving a friend/client (an FBI agent, btw) to lunch, he had to slam on the brakes at some point and that pistol slid right out from under the driver seat. They looked at the pistol & then each other. The FBI Guy said something like, "Got a concealed carry license for that?". "Um, no." "You should get one." ... and they went on to lunch.

 

[drobs]

Yes.....but, even tho they are similar, there is a difference between stupidity and ignorance. Those that are untrained and uneducated are just ignorant. Those that cannot or refuse to comprehend what they have been taught, are just stupid. I will give the mother the benefit of the doubt that she was just ignorant, and not stupid. Ignorance is simply the lack of knowledge, either in general or about a specific issue or topic. Stupidity refers to the lack of an ordinary level of intelligence, wit, or quickness of mind.

Having taught hunter education for many years, I agree to a point. Still, what seems to be common sense to us that are informed, can be something those not informed, cannot envision by themselves. Education changes that.

I think handgun safety and instruction on the safe carry of handguns should be added to the Hunter Safety Curriculum. Especially for states that permitless / constitutional carry.

 

[Atavar]

I think handgun safety and instruction on the safe carry of handguns should be added to the Hunter Safety Curriculum. Especially for states that permitless / constitutional carry.

It was there in ancient times when I took a Hunter Safety class. They talked about holsters and retention and safeties.
Did they take it out of the curriculum?

A page from the Minnesota handbook:

 

[drobs]

It was there in ancient times when I took a Hunter Safety class. They talked about holsters and retention and safeties.
Did they take it out of the curriculum?

A page from the Minnesota handbook:
View attachment 1202585

I took Hunter Safety in Missouri about 7 years ago and handguns were not part of the course, either on line or in person for the hands on requirement.
The online course is national, the one I took in Missouri is the same as just about every other state.

 

[Atavar]

I took Hunter Safety in Missouri about 7 years ago and handguns were not part of the course, either on line or in person for the hands on requirement.
The online course is national, the one I took in Missouri is the same as just about every other state.

I guess Minnesota just has a better course.
But realistically, except for holster retention safe handling of long arms and sidearms are pretty similar.
A mention of concealed carry rules on a legal firearms hunt would be in order. (Permitted in Mn).

 

[drobs]

I guess Minnesota just has a better course.
But realistically, except for holster retention safe handling of long arms and sidearms are pretty similar.
A mention of concealed carry rules on a legal firearms hunt would be in order. (Permitted in Mn).

Looking at MN's requirements for those 16 and over... don't count on that.

Firearms Safety Certification for Adults (16 and older)

www.dnr.state.mn.us

Receive your Firearms Safety Certification or Apprentice Validation by completing one of the following options:

1. Online course- complete the online course and virtual field day
2. Firearms Safety Classroom Course - currently scheduled classes below.
3. Apprentice Hunter Validation (twice in a lifetime)

Pretty sure that online course (https://www.huntercourse.com/) is the same one I took for Missouri and it doesn't include handgun safety,

 

[Some_Mook]

Media doesn't employ rocket scientists, or even decent grammarians. Our local paper (aka, the Tribune Fishwrapper) headlined "One Killed, Two Electrocuted" in an accident, some years ago.

Electrocuted does not always mean the incident was fatal. Worked with a guy who was unplugging a damaged cord from 220 and he took a hit that knocked him out for about 30 seconds. When the EMTs wanted to transport him he tried to decline and stated "I just got shocked". The EMT told him "No, you got Electrocuted "

 

[WisBorn]

I have or have had concealed carry permits for 4 different states. WI, IL, SC, and Utah. I know that SC has recently changed, but when I obtained the permits they all required training. I feel the training is extremely important and valuable.

Yes, I believe in the right to bear arms. I also don't want to be shot by an idiot that didn't take time to be trained.

 

[DeepSouth]

Man the guilt to live with would be terrible, I feel for her.

I also remember reading of a lady that had gun on a necklace and somehow a toddler grabbed it while in the seat on a shopping cart and shot her in the head killing her.

I know someone who’s kid (teenager) got in a car and felt something poke him in the back, when he went to grab it, not knowing what it was, a finger pushed the trigger and shot himself in the spine. Last I saw him he was still in a wheelchair, paralyzed, and lost his football scholarship to.


These things are dangerous and require more caution than we frequently give them.

Be safe!

 

[CraigC]

With great freedom comes great responsibility. Sometimes folks forget that last part.

I'm torn on the idea of "allowing" people to carry without any form of training, because I think we're all better off if there is at least some training. However, I watch the Hodge twins on YouTube and while it's usually funny and entertaining, every time the discussion turns to what people should and shouldn't be able to do, one of them always says, "you either believe in freedom or you don't".

 

[Howland937]

It's sad for sure. It reminds me why I'm glad certain people I'm related to have decided against carrying guns even after getting a permit. I think of my wife's purse and her digging for the debit card she didn't put back in her wallet...or car keys...or Tylenol. To think someone would drop a loaded firearm into a mess like that is truly frightening.
If she needs her keys 8 times a day and can't find them, I have zero confidence she'd EVER find a gun in there the one time she needed it...but, she's just as likely to not know where her purse is. So her rule is "gun on your person in a proper holster or gun stays at home".

 

[halfmoonclip]

"No, you got Electrocuted " The suffix "-cuted" should mean death, as in "executed". However, a little research says it now can also mean "shocked"

However, I watch the Hodge twins on YouTube and while it's usually funny and entertaining, every time the discussion turns to what people should and shouldn't be able to do, one of them always says, "you either believe in freedom or you don't".

Craig, share similar thoughts. We don't have requirements here in PA, but I've also felt folks should be voluntarily trained. Taught a handgun safety class, at our Club, for many years, never made a dime on it, for that reason.
OTOH, states like New Jersey require such an extensive training regimen, just to buy a handgun, that it is used as a disincentive.
Have to say that we don't have a lot of accidents reported here in PA, and the media would be all over it, had it happened.
Moon
.

 

[sgt127]

Who ever heard of misdemeanor murder?

It’s actually a non legal term we used back in the day for someone winding up getting killed that needed killing.

If we found one of our crack dealers, robbers, car jackers, whatever, shot to death somewhere. We referred to it as a misdemeanor murder.

The suspect was invariably of the same societal value as the victim, and, we generally caught them. So, it was a double win for the community as a whole. One dead, one in prison.

 

[CraigC]

It’s actually a non legal term we used back in the day for someone winding up getting killed that needed killing.

If we found one of our crack dealers, robbers, car jackers, whatever, shot to death somewhere. We referred to it as a misdemeanor murder.

The suspect was invariably of the same societal value as the victim, and, we generally caught them. So, it was a double win for the community as a whole. One dead, one in prison.

That's what happened to the scumbag that broke into our house in 2011, two weeks before our wedding. A year to the day after breaking into ours, he was caught breaking into 9 businesses in one night. Few years later one of his buddies shot him.

 

[Old Dog]

Yes, I believe in the right to bear arms. I also don't want to be shot by an idiot that didn't take time to be trained.

I'm torn on the idea of "allowing" people to carry without any form of training, because I think we're all better off if there is at least some training.

When I initially moved up to my current state of residence, I was concerned that the state has never had any training requirements whatsoever to obtain a CPL. After 30 years up here, what I have learned is that there have been remarkably few instances (such as the one in the OP) compared to the states that have mandatory training requirements. Public negligent discharges are rare, criminal malfeasance by CPL holders is rare, and I can't remember hearing of a tragedy such as the account in the OP, though we recently saw a woman charged for leaving her loaded pistol out in her kitchen which her 12-year-old son accessed and used to commit suicide.

Somewhat strange to those that view Washington state as an anti-gun liberal cesspool, the state actually has a rich history of gun ownership and there's still a vibrant shooting culture here, gun shops in every city (except Seattle, of course), tons of indoor ranges, gun clubs and accessible public land for recreational shooting. Which in turn displays the fact that there is a lot of training available (every range and gun club I know of offers some version of basic intro to shooting and concealed carry course) of which that many folks avail themselves.

Now WA has mandated training (which can be done online) prior to purchasing any firearm (and we've had safe storage laws for a few years now). My point is that, even without required training to obtain a concealed pistol (handgun) license, this state has done pretty well, with regard to not seeing any incidents such as detailed in the OP. A similar state, Indiana, also seems to have done pretty well in this arena.

However, I watch the Hodge twins on YouTube and while it's usually funny and entertaining, every time the discussion turns to what people should and shouldn't be able to do, one of them always says, "you either believe in freedom or you don't".

And nowhere have we ever heard from anyone who matters that freedom and liberty are supposed to come without risks.

If we found one of our crack dealers, robbers, car jackers, whatever, shot to death somewhere. We referred to it as a misdemeanor murder.

One of the nation's largest PDs with a very high profile, came under scrutiny when it was learned its officers called these cases "NHI," for "no humans involved."

 

[CraigC]

And nowhere have we ever heard from anyone who matters that freedom and liberty are supposed to come without risks.

There's a whole lot of folks who believe the two concepts are mutually exclusive. People w ho falsely believe you can be free but also made to "feel" safe. IMHO, we are being enslaved by safety culture. Note in any given day how many times you hear the word "safe" or "safety".

 

[Old Dog]

There's a whole lot of folks who believe the two concepts are mutually exclusive. People w ho falsely believe you can be free but also made to "feel" safe. IMHO, we are being enslaved by safety culture. Note in any given day how many times you hear the word "safe" or "safety".

Agreed. Why I noted, "people who matter" -- can't say more without making the thread political.

And in my state, what I find totally hypocritical is that the politicians haven't addressed the shocking truancy rates in our public schools, the out-of-control homeless "encampments," our fentanyl overdose deaths (we're up in the top two states in the country, I believe) nor the numbers of folks dying daily -- on our dangerous roads (did I mention the restrictions our state put on police pursuits?). But yet, with an incredible low rate (compared to states with similar population) of firearms "accidents," and "gun violence," the politicians go for more gun regulation. The legal pot shops are far less regulated than our gun shops now.

 

[Styx]

I pocket carry a revolver in my pocket without a holster, but I'd never throw a loaded semiauto into a large compartment with other items. If the firearm is in a somewhat fitted padded or rigid compartment in a purse WITHOUT a holster, then I see no problem with it.

Other than that, whose to say the woman's gun wasn't originally in a pocket holster? I can see how a gun could fall out of a pocket holster that's loose in a large purse compartment.

 

[Kleanbore]

I pocket carry a revolver in my pocket without a holster,

Last year, a freed of mine who carries a Chief's Special in a pocket in a holster took it out to check it. The cylinder would not open and the hammer would not cock.

The fix required a special tool. Videos abound on this.

The problem was lint.

 

[Styx]

Last year, a freed of mine who carries a Chief's Special in a pocket in a holster took it out to check it. The cylinder would not open and the hammer would not cock.

The fix required a special tool. Videos abound on this.

The problem was lint.

As someone who has carried for well over a decade, lint can and always has worked its way into my carry guns whether I'm OWB, IWB, or pocket carrying. My pocket is basically acting as the holster, and in my experience, I've had less lint, skin cells, flaked off deodorant, sweat, and other debris when I pocket carry vs IWB and OWB carry. IWB always seemed to be the worse, followed concealed with an untucked shirt OWB carry.

I can't imagine how lint from carrying in the pocket of clean pants or jacket for 8 to 12 hours would build up to the point of causes a major malfunction with a properly cared for and maintainenced revolver, which required special tools to fix. The revolver I carry has a concealed hammer (Ruger LCR).