Caution when selling your guns on GB, GA, etc

[the count]

I started selling off some of my guns to add other to my collection. Have been using Gunbroker and Gunsamerica. While most guys are legit, I have already run into a couple fellows that are obviously up to no good. Here some of the approaches I have experienced. Maybe other can add theirs to help unsuspecting seller from getting in trouble.

One guy who claimed that he was a private detective tried to convince me that in NC its OK to do a sale face to face with the buyer not needing a permit of concealed carry permit. Total nonsense of course.

Several guys asked if I could meet them to show them a gun that is up for auction. Great way to get mugged, robbed, followed home for a break in later, etc. Always decline to do this.

Watch for guys who will try to get you to ship to places where residents are not allowed to have handguns at all, like NYC. They will send you some fake ID and fake permits.

 

[Tipro]

Deals in NC

I also live in NC, and was hoping you could give me a little advice. I am planning on buying a shotgun face to face with a guy who posted on Armslist. Now, we need to go to an FFL right, and have them transfer it over to me? Or can I just give him the cash, get the gun, and be on my way? I've seen people do this last at gun shows, but I have doubts as to its legality. And, how much will an FFL charge for their services, if that's the route I need to go?

 

[gc70]

Or can I just give him the cash, get the gun, and be on my way? I've seen people do this last at gun shows, but I've have doubts as to its legality.

Handgun transactions require a NC Pistol Purchase Permit or a NC Concealed Handgun License; no permits or licenses are required for rifles and shotguns. Person-to-person firearms transactions can be done without going through a FFL.

North Carolina Firearms Laws is published by the Attorney General and the North Carolina Department of Justice. Page 3 discusses permit and license requirements.

Under North Carolina law, it is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation to sell, give away, transfer, purchase, or receive, at any place in the state, any pistol, unless the purchaser or receiver has first obtained a license or permit to receive such a pistol by the sheriff of the county where the purchaser or receiver resides, or the purchaser or receiver possesses a valid North Carolina-issued concealed carry permit. This requirement to obtain a permit prior to the transfer of a pistol applies not only to a commercial transaction, typically at a sporting goods store, but also between private individuals or companies throughout North Carolina. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-402(a)

 

[Mainsail]

One guy who claimed that he was a private detective tried to convince me that in NC its OK to do a sale face to face with the buyer not needing a permit of concealed carry permit. Total nonsense of course.

That is illegal in NC? I can't speak for NC, but in WA and most other states the private sale of firearms doesn't require a permit from the buyer or seller. It's a good idea, and I always require a Washington CPL and DL from the buyer, but no law requires it. EDIT: Thanks gc70 for the info. Handguns require permit, long guns do not. I like the free west more every day...

Several guys asked if I could meet them to show them a gun that is up for auction. Great way to get mugged, robbed, followed home for a break in later, etc. Always decline to do this.

I've sold several of my privately owned guns, and never had a problem meeting someone face to face. I have never heard of a single incident where someone selling a gun on one of the firearms forums had a problem.

 

[Bubbles]

Probably a Bloomburg setup:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=638329

 

[NavyLCDR]

Watch for guys who will try to get you to ship to places where residents are not allowed to have handguns at all, like NYC. They will send you some fake ID and fake permits.

Any firearm sold out-of-state must go to an FFL. So what difference does it make if the purchaser is in NYC? They send you an FFL number, you look up the license number on the BATFE EZ Check system, and send the gun to the FFL. Nothing shady about that at all. There are people in NYC who are allowed to possess firearms.

 

[the count]

Any firearm sold out-of-state must go to an FFL. So what difference does it make if the purchaser is in NYC? They send you an FFL number, you look up the license number on the BATFE EZ Check system, and send the gun to the FFL. Nothing shady about that at all. There are people in NYC who are allowed to possess firearms.

Take a look at the ship rules of all major online gun stores like Buds, CheaperThanDirt etc. None of these ship handguns to (FFL or otherwise) NYC, New Jersey, Chicago, Cook County and so forth. I assume these guys know what they are doing and they probably like to sell as many guns as possible too. I for my part have no desire to put my ass on the line by second guessing the law.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Take a look at the ship rules of all major online gun stores like Buds, CheaperThanDirt etc. None of these ship handguns to (FFL or otherwise) NYC, New Jersey, Chicago, Cook County and so forth. I assume these guys know what they are doing and they probably like to sell as many guns as possible too. I for my part have no desire to put my ass on the line by second guessing the law.

Did you list your restrictions in the ad for the gun? No sales to NY, NJ, etc...no face to face sales without a concealed carry permit, no personal inspections?

 

[the count]

Did you list your restrictions in the ad for the gun? No sales to NY, NJ, etc...no face to face sales without a concealed carry permit, no personal inspections?

You betcha, some will still try to weasel a gun out of you.

 

[Canuck-IL]

Take a look at the ship rules of all major online gun stores like Buds, CheaperThanDirt etc. None of these ship handguns to (FFL or otherwise) NYC, New Jersey, Chicago, Cook County and so forth. I assume these guys know what they are doing and they probably like to sell as many guns as possible too. I for my part have no desire to put my ass on the line by second guessing the law.

You confuse "law" with a company's policies. Many ammo/powder/primer vendors similarly refuse to ship to Cook County and other locales; some will but only if the buyer's FOID (state gun owner's card) is on file; others will but only if the shipping address is the same as the address on the foid; etc. ... those are all policy choices made by the vendor's lawyers ... not law.

While gun distributors would undoubtedly like to sell as many guns as possible, some make the policy decision that the potential hassles of being targeted by an over zealous ass't DA, even on a case that the seller WILL NOT lose, are not worth the potential sales. Even if you win, there's substantial expense and time involved in being sued by the likes of Cook County or the City of New York.

Similarly, it's often just too much headache to attempt to keep up on all the specific, local regulations, ie. what is legal to sell, for all jurisdictions...Cook County again being a good example of a tortured list of gun "features" and types that are prohibited. Some sellers attempt to shift the burden by asserting "gun/mags/whatever must be legal where you reside." As far as I know, the validity of shifting the burden of compliance to the buyer has not been definitively resolved in a court.
/Bryan

 

[the count]

You confuse "law" with a company's policies. Many ammo/powder/primer vendors similarly refuse to ship to Cook County and other locales; some will but only if the buyer's FOID (state gun owner's card) is on file; others will but only if the shipping address is the same as the address on the foid; etc. ... those are all policy choices made by the vendor's lawyers ... not law.

While gun distributors would undoubtedly like to sell as many guns as possible, some make the policy decision that the potential hassles of being targeted by an over zealous ass't DA, even on a case that the seller WILL NOT lose, are not worth the potential sales. Even if you win, there's substantial expense and time involved in being sued by the likes of Cook County or the City of New York.

Similarly, it's often just too much headache to attempt to keep up on all the specific, local regulations, ie. what is legal to sell, for all jurisdictions...Cook County again being a good example of a tortured list of gun "features" and types that are prohibited. Some sellers attempt to shift the burden by asserting "gun/mags/whatever must be legal where you reside." As far as I know, the validity of shifting the burden of compliance to the buyer has not been definitively resolved in a court.
/Bryan

I was informed that residents of Chicago & Cook county are banned from buying hand guns, period. Same as New York City. Like you said, most gun stores (and me) really don't want to go out on a limb testing local laws. Better solution, vote the anti gun idiots out of office.

 

[BSA1]

Handgun transactions require a NC Pistol Purchase Permit or a NC Concealed Handgun License; no permits or licenses are required for rifles and shotguns. Person-to-person firearms transactions can be done without going through a FFL.

Wow that sucks. Do you have to obtain a Pistol Purchase Permit each time you buy or sale a gun? Is the model and Serial # reported to police?

 

[gc70]

Do you have to obtain a Pistol Purchase Permit each tiem you buy or sale a gun? Is the model and Serial # reported to police?

NC requires the buyer of a handgun to obtain a separate Pistol Purchase Permit for each handgun purchased (except if the buyer has a NC Concealed Handgun License - more on that later). The permit application process is a pain, involving background information, criminal and mental background checks, and references. The permits are good for 5 years, most sheriffs will issue multiple permits at one time, and I think the permits cost $5 each. Getting additional permits within 5 years of the initial application usually involves calling the sheriff's office a day in advance so they can refresh the NICS check.

A Concealed Handgun License qualifies as a substitute for a Pistol Purchase Permit.

Nothing is reported to local or state authorities when a Pistol Purchase Permit or Concealed Handgun License is used to buy a handgun. All that happens is that the buyer gives a Pistol Purchase Permit to the seller or the buyer allows the seller to see (and copy information from) a Concealed Handgun License.

 

[Tom488]

Take a look at the ship rules of all major online gun stores like Buds, CheaperThanDirt etc. None of these ship handguns to (FFL or otherwise) NYC, New Jersey, Chicago, Cook County and so forth.

<sigh>

Why do people INSIST on continuing to spread false information, and/or opine on issues they don't fully understand? :banghead:

There is NO issue with shipping handguns to an FFL in NJ, for transfer to an NJ resident (who possesses a permit to purchase a handgun). Looking at Bud's Gun Shop, their only restriction for NJ is no magazines over 15 rounds (which is legally correct). I'm also not aware of CTD refusing to ship to NJ. My local FFL has done many transfers from Bud's.

Yes, NJ sucks for gun rights - no argument. However, please don't make us out to be worse than we are.

 

[bikemutt]

This is interesting to me since I have a shotgun listed on gunbroker.com with at least one bid as of now, so the deal presumably will go down.

Once the auction has ended, assuming I get paid and the funds are good, and the buyer provides me a valid copy of the FFL he/she wishes it shipped to, why would I care if the either a) the buyer's State and/or municipality doesn't permit transfers of this gun, b) the buyer is somehow prohibited from receiving this gun, or c) the buyer is a loser scam artist?

The way I see it is I got paid and lawfully shipped the gun to a FFL. Furthermore, I state in my auction that I place the onus on the buyer if a) or b) happens.

Help me out if I missed something, I'd just as soon sell this shotgun and move on to enjoying the proceeds of the sale, and my freedom.

 

[Canuck-IL]

I was informed that residents of Chicago & Cook county are banned from buying hand guns, period.

Not so ... Cook County has never had that restriction and Chicago's ban was voided in the McDonald case (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._Chicago ).

There are restrictions such as a mandatory safety class, etc. still in place - and some of those are being challenged as unreasonable in court. Notwithstanding those pending cases, private citizens can today buy and own a handgun in Chicago, as long as they jump through a few hoops.

Cook has a few often ignored "assault rifle features" bans ... too many evil features classifies a gun as a no-no, similar to what CA has in place now. There are private gun shops as well as chains like Cabela's located within Cook and selling ARs and AKs.

/B

 

[hogshead]

gc70 I would never give my pistol permit to an indivual. Who's to say that he couldn't use it again.

 

[WardenWolf]

I did a face to face transfer on a Gunbroker auction ONCE. The buyer was local, and we met in the parking lot of a gun shop, and I was, of course, armed. And I took a photograph of his driver's license with my phone. That way (1) there would be witnesses and other armed people within a stone's throw, and (2) if I felt sketchy about the buyer I could insist it be processed through the FFL.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Why do people INSIST on continuing to spread false information, and/or opine on issues they don't fully understand?

There is NO issue with shipping handguns to an FFL in NJ

Once the auction has ended, assuming I get paid and the funds are good, and the buyer provides me a valid copy of the FFL he/she wishes it shipped to, why would I care if the either a) the buyer's State and/or municipality doesn't permit transfers of this gun, b) the buyer is somehow prohibited from receiving this gun, or c) the buyer is a loser scam artist?

The way I see it is I got paid and lawfully shipped the gun to a FFL. Furthermore, I state in my auction that I place the onus on the buyer if a) or b) happens.

^^^EXACTLY!^^^ There is no issue with a seller living in a free state shipping a firearm to an FFL in any state. A private seller is only obligated to comply with the laws of the state they are located in and Federal law. If the seller's state law does not prohibit shipping the gun, Federal law allows shipping a firearm to an FFL in any state - the state laws of the buyer have absolutely no bearing on the transaction on the seller's end. Once the firearm arrives at the FFL in the buyer's state, it is up to the FFL to comply with that state's law.

California, for example, cannot reach out and prosecute a Texas resident for selling an AR-15 that is illegal in California and shipping that AR-15 to a California FFL. The Texas resident broke no laws of the jurisdiction that they were in.

When we and companies refuse to do business to anyone in a restrictive state the only thing we are doing, IMHO, is cooperating with that states' government to disarm the residents of that state. We aren't hurting that state, we are hurting the resident.

Send the gun to the FFL complying with your own state's law and Federal law and let the receiving FFL worry about their own laws.

 

[N003k]

The only reason that some companies even bother refusing to ship to state XY or Z, is because they don't want to have to deal with the irate customer complaining because their FFL couldn't transfer the gun to them.

If you're a private seller and get cash or a postal money order, and say that the responsibility is on the buyer to be sure it's legal, then they're SOL if they can't accept it. They can't for example do a charge back, etc. The burden isn't on you.

For a large company, it might be financially prudent. For a small seller, saying that it's on the buyer, it just gives you more potential customers.

 

[gc70]

gc70 I would never give my pistol permit to an indivual. Who's to say that he couldn't use it again.

Good question, but who's to say that a buyer who keeps a permit wouldn't illegally use it again? It is sometimes difficult to protect both buyer and seller.

Would you buy -or sell- a pistol without getting a bill of sale that identified the parties? Would you insist on confirming the other party's identity? Having documentation of a transaction would be a lot different than just exchanging money and a permit for a pistol with Mr. Anonymous.

So the seller might get the permit or the buyer might keep it. The only middle ground I see is if the seller was willing to let the buyer keep the permit after writing something like "This permit was used on X date to buy Y pistol from Z" on the face of the permit.

 

[Diamondback6]

Here in WA where we don't have Purchase Permit bull, I have a standard contract that I use whether buying or selling private-sale, along with ID and CCW and WAC badge, since most of my transactions are at WAC meets. Language like...

"Seller certifies under penalty of perjury that he/she is the lawful owner of this weapon at time of sale. Buyer certifies under penalty of perjury that he/she is not prohibited from owning firearms under Federal and/or State law. Buyer is purchasing this firearm in As Is condition with no warranties of fitness for any purpose. Seller assumes NO liability for buyer's post-purchase activities." Things like that, along with names, ID and CPL numbers, and weapon description.

 

[CoRoMo]

Wow. I can't agree with much of what the OP has stated.

Other than the "detective" story.

I roughly count up some 21 handguns that I've sold on GunBroker over the years. Some locally face to face, many shipped out of state to places like New York. Not to mention the long guns that I've sold.

It's quite a benign thing to do actually. No need to be paranoid IMHO.

Now, selling miscellaneous junk on CraigsList can be a little scary.

 

[NavyLCDR]

pre-purchase permit = "guilty, until proven innocent".

Think about it.

Aren't carry permits the same way?

 

[raz-0]

Take a look at the ship rules of all major online gun stores like Buds, CheaperThanDirt etc. None of these ship handguns to (FFL or otherwise) NYC, New Jersey, Chicago, Cook County and so forth. I assume these guys know what they are doing and they probably like to sell as many guns as possible too. I for my part have no desire to put my ass on the line by second guessing the law.

Living in NJ, and having bought several firearms form buds, and knowing several others who have as well. You are just simply wrong. I also know people form NYC who own guns and shoot competitively. It's a HUGE PITA, and there are VERY, VERY few FFLs to do the transfer with, but you can indeed ship to them. What they probably won't do is sell >15 round capacity SKUs to NJ and > 10 round capacity SKUs to NYC. (jsut checked buds, they only list NY and CA on some of the guns, even though they should be flagged for HI as well at least, and some of them for NJ).