CCW Blackpowder pistol?

[dickydalton]

I have started carrying my new Uberti '62 Police. At 1 1/2 lbs, 5 1/2" barrel and 20 grs. of DuPont FFFg it is a pocket pistol with a punch .
I have shot it enough to have it feel like an extension of my hand. Then this is "woods carry" CCW

I did NOT say that BP guns were under powered. I posted this last march about shooting one of my 1862 Colt Pocket Navys: "As an aside, I shot a bit more and the slug on the left in this picture is a Buffalo Bullet Company 125 grain conical that I shot out of my 1862 Colt Pocket Navy today. It clocked 880 FPS over the chrono and lost 2 grains of weight after recovery from a gravel bank at 45 yards. That's out of a 5.5" barrel guys. (18 grains of 3F Swiss)."

The pocket Pistols are great woods carry guns. They are just too big for CCW.

 

[dickydalton]

Even a ball used with weak powder is formidable as seen in this old military testing with an 1860 Army. The ball gloes clean through the bone and gel block despite traveling at just 600 and so fps. But then it acts like a FMJ which isn't exactly the best projectile, which is why I prefer a WFN known to create a much better wound channel even if it doesn't expand.

All you gotta show me now is a snub that shoots a ball at 600 FPS or a Dragoon that fits in your pocket. This thread started out as a "CCW" thread.

 

[rodwha]

All you gotta show me now is a snub that shoots a ball at 600 FPS or a Dragoon that fits in your pocket. This thread started out as a "CCW" thread.

600 fps shouldn't be hard to beat if you use an energetic powder.

You were the one who brought up the Dragoon...
My point was the misinformation. Far too many people told me my ROA was no more powerful than a .38 Spl and inhumane to use for hunting. As you can see it can produce about 500 ft/lbs in a stock cylinder which doesn't hold as much as a Dragoon. The .357 Mag with the 125 grn JHP has always been compared to the .45 ACP and shown to be about equal as far as stopping a bad guy.

I'm a bit curious why you'd say the Colt Pocket is too big for CCW when it's no longer used than a 5 shot .38. And if it's the barrel length, which can be 4.5" unless you buy the 3.5" aftermarket barrel, I'd say phooey as I carried a full size 1911 on my skinny frame. However I wanted a Safari Arms Enforcer with the compact grip and 4" barrel.

 

[rodwha]

Even if we use your 100 fps per inch theory we can see that the 5.5" ROA with the reduced load of 33 grns of T7 and a ball produced 1011 fps, which would give a 3.5" barrel no less than 800 fps with a ball. I can certainly get more than 33 grns into my Remington with a ball, but 30 is more accurate and what I'd use. So reduce it by 3 grns and there's no way that lost another 200 fps.

And Swiss and Olde Eynsford give very similar velocity when used in the same volume.

 

[dickydalton]

Even if we use your 100 fps per inch theory we can see that the 5.5" ROA with the reduced load of 33 grns of T7 and a ball produced 1011 fps, which would give a 3.5" barrel no less than 800 fps with a ball. I can certainly get more than 33 grns into my Remington with a ball, but 30 is more accurate and what I'd use. So reduce it by 3 grns and there's no way that lost another 200 fps.

And Swiss and Olde Eynsford give very similar velocity when used in the same volume.

Please remember that Black Powder doesn't produce pressure and velocity the same way smokeless powder cartridges do. When half of your black powder charge burns outside the barrel it is NOT speeding the bullet up! Think about it. The difference between 5 1/2" to 7 1/2" isn't the same as 5 1/2" down to 3 1/2" because the bullet has left the barrel before all the powder has burned. Think about it!

 

[rodwha]

No doubt about it. I'm at a loss for why you feel I thought burning powder outside of a barrel did.

However I'm not so sure that you are correct about the projectile being expelled before the powder could be fully consumed, and it doesn't seem to be so according to the fellow who tested his snub nose. Ultimately the only way to know is finding the point where there is no gain I'd suppose.

Now I feel 2" is rather short, and as the fellow who tested his claimed it took about 3.5" to completely burn the charge within the gun.

Having a heavier projectile and one more more bearing surface will help burn the powder more efficiently. There's another fellow I keep in contact with a fair bit who found a 180 grn bullet produced a higher velocity than a ball with the same powder charge.

But also we saw that with what was tested the maximum loss per inch was 43.5 fps and the minimum was 4.

But I've also seen that a revolver shot without the barrel produced about what you felt you got from your snub nose. It certainly isn't linear.

 

[dickydalton]

Here are 6 of my smaller BP revolvers. I love them all and sometimes carry a Pocket Navy in a shoulder holster in coat weather (as a Backup) just to feel cool. Even the angel is too big for pocket carry and underpowered. One of the best loads in a Pocket Colt is a 125 conical that goes 880 FPS. My LCP has 8 rounds (instead of 5) of 1000 FPS Underwood XTPs in it and takes seconds to load another 7. The LCP is a backup to either an LC9S or Officers ACP Enhanced with 8 more rounds.
Do any of the BP guns go to town as protection against some idiot that wants to shoot the mall up? NO, Not Ever. You all can do as you please.


P.S.
The 5 1/2" ROA in my avatar is loaded with 240 Kaido bullets and is very impressive. It is never carried to town for defense either. Woods? Maybe.

 

[rodwha]

Precisely how I see it. A BP gun just isn't as good as a modern pistol at all. But it's not because I figure they aren't adequate in the horse power department. And it's not because I am concerned mine aren't reliable enough.

As I had begun to state much earlier the main problem with putting someone down is the mindset it seems. A determined attacker may not quit despite taking a full magazine of .45 ACP, which is something I read about with a cop maybe a dozen years ago, and the hits were all good ones.

Anything less than a high powered rifle that turns your insides into jelly or buckshot can be less than stellar with a determined attacker.

As I don't deal with the mafia or gang members and don't have much of a reason to be targeted by such I feel my risk is minimal. But then I'm not championing using a BP gun as a CCW. I've only stated that they are more than capable with the right powders and projectiles. However I'd trust mine under these circumstances and treat them as viable weapons, which they are as long as a shoot out isn't a real possibility. Most typical criminals who'd break into a home would run at just the thought of a firearm being pointed at them. Druggies would be the one major wild card.

 

[Dog Soldier]

When will we be able to prove that a BP revolver is an adequate defensive weapon? I suspect the last time that happened was in the 1870s? Well if some one hauls out a "Smoke Wagon" and shuts down a Hi Cap 9MM it will make the evening news. Merry Christmas to all.

 

[rodwha]

There was an instance I read about from maybe a score or so years back. Worked quite well.

I've never tried nor been put in a situation to see how I'd do using a single action system (other than the 1911, a Colt .380 Government, and AMT Automag II). But a single action revolver takes a bit more to operate. Having tried a few double action revolvers quickly I found I wasn't very accurate overall. Nothing like with the .45 or .22 Mag mentioned. I could dot your eye at 15 yds with most of the magazine with those as fast as I could pull the trigger.

No way I could shoot a single action revolver like that, especially quickly.

 

[Dog Soldier]

Damn rodwa if you could shoot my eye out if you missed my brow.

 

[rodwha]

I know, I know...

I actually began to think of an older fellow who's a citizen from Britain who spent time in the military and claims he just doesn't have the funds (pension) for modern arms and carries a Remington or two (5.5" model) and says if his skinny little frame can carry them concealed you can too.

I thought it a bit bizarre as I'm guessing he doesn't have a criminal record prohibiting him and yet this is his choice, though he lives in the south west and says he wears a vest, which would kill me. I live in Texas and won't wear a shirt if I don't need to, but won't wear a vest regardless. Maybe he's just made of tougher stuff than most of us.

His load is 5 grns of Goex 3F under a 30 grn Pyrodex pellet with a ball known to produce just under 1000 fps.

 

[Stormson]

Dicky, if you have a chance of being caught up with some idiot shooting up the mall then the very FIRST defensive move you should make is to get the heck OUT of Democrat controlled areas where malls are most apt to get shot up! Im serious here...No sidearm of any kind can protect you from a governmental form that depends on victims in order to function.

Out here in coal country youd be really hard pressed to find anyone not proficient in firearms... And almost as hard pressed to find anyone not in easy reach of one. Lucky thing is the thugs out here are the exception... welfare doesnt buy their drugs for them and as a result if the ever do get hold of a weapon it is quickly sold. The idea of using it to forcefully take money is, quite simply, a death sentence and they know it... Petty crime is rampant... drugs as well... but MAJOR crime? No.. the major crime rate is VERY low.

Also... we only HAVE one mall within an hour in any direction... and that one mall? Yeah.. its the site of the largest gun shop in the area as well... Needless to say, we havent had any mall shootings yet! LOL

Back to the firearm itself... Did you know that Ayob (I forget how to spell his name?) used to champion the short barreled, single action, .45LC for hostage rescue??? His reasoning was that it had plenty of power for one shot kills at the distances involved in airplanes, school rooms, etc that such hostage situations would probably take place (the same distance as SD issues), yet would not have over travel through the bad guys and on into innocents... Or the fuselage or a pressurized cabin. The single action further encouraging accuracy and safety.

I can load this thing ALMOST to .45 levels... Not quite, but almost. As for it only being a 5 shot (6 if I so choose) well.. if I need more then that for self defense, then it really isnt defense any longer... I am in a state of war, and NO sidearm should be my first choice.

 

[webrx]

just watched this:



Trying to chronograph a custom 4-inch barreled 1858 remington. First two cylinders loaded with a 200 grain conical over 35 grains of pyrodex P. Last cylinder first three shots 200 grain conicals over 40 grains of pyrodex P, and the last three chambers were loaded with a 137 grain round ball and 37 grains pyrodex P. The wind kept on knocking over the camera recording the chrono results, so only the first two velocities were recorded. The first result was 922.4 FPS and the second was 900 FPS. All velocities were in the low 900s. [email protected] fps=377.94foot pounds and 200gr.@900=359.80 foot pounds

 

[dickydalton]

just watched this:



Trying to chronograph a custom 4-inch barreled 1858 remington. First two cylinders loaded with a 200 grain conical over 35 grains of pyrodex P. Last cylinder first three shots 200 grain conicals over 40 grains of pyrodex P, and the last three chambers were loaded with a 137 grain round ball and 37 grains pyrodex P. The wind kept on knocking over the camera recording the chrono results, so only the first two velocities were recorded. The first result was 922.4 FPS and the second was 900 FPS. All velocities were in the low 900s. [email protected] fps=377.94foot pounds and 200gr.@900=359.80 foot pounds

Yes Sir, but how about Black Powder? Real Black?

 

[jeepnik]

I do carry a short barreled Colt 1860 (replica) concealed from time to time. When called on it I usually respond that up close and personal the 1860 can not only put lead into your adversary, it can also light them on fire. And, if six aren't enough I can escape in the smoke screen.

Seriously, is it the absolute best, no. Is it more than adequate, yes.

 

[rodwha]

Yes Sir, but how about Black Powder? Real Black?

What does that have to do with anything? Pyrodex is a substitute powder used in place of real black powder. But if you, for whatever odd reason, find it so detestable you could use Swiss or Olde Eynsford powders and likely increase the velocity. Or you could use Triple 7 substitute powder. It's all about the same and made for these types of guns. But then you know that...

It seems you want to keep coming back to using the weaker more common powders I'm guessing. If you want to skew the results with such a judgement that's your problem. But that doesn't make you right. It just makes you bullheaded.

 

[dickydalton]

What does that have to do with anything? Pyrodex is a substitute powder used in place of real black powder. But if you, for whatever odd reason, find it so detestable you could use Swiss or Olde Eynsford powders and likely increase the velocity. Or you could use Triple 7 substitute powder. It's all about the same and made for these types of guns. But then you know that...

It seems you want to keep coming back to using the weaker more common powders I'm guessing. If you want to skew the results with such a judgement that's your problem. But that doesn't make you right. It just makes you bullheaded.

Well whoop de do to you. Calling me bullheaded isn't the THR way, I thought. First of all, Pyrodex may burn faster when compressed than 3F Black. Second of all, please tell me how a 4' diameter fireball proves that the powder burned in a 2" barrel. I go back to CCW? If you want decent power, remember Power Recommended by Experts in defensive carry, then show me a cap n ball revolver that hides well enough to walk around the Wal-Mart or Target without showing that you are armed.
Open Carry? BIG Difference! How's that for bullheaded? I didn't even call you names as you did me. Merry Christmas.

 

[rodwha]

To continually go back to an unidentified weak true black powder as your only option, the only one you seem to want to compare, is bullheaded. There's no way around that when there are many options available that are also a true black powder.

As I said the only real way to know where the barrier between used or unused powder would be with a chronograph. It's actually no different from your side in that you can't honestly say that you only used 10 grns of the 30 loaded, which I find unbelievable anyway.

I'm lost with what your intentions were stating, "I go back to CCW?"

There's a fellow, the one I mentioned, who's on the 1858 Remington forum that carries no less than one 5.5" Remington NMA as his carry piece(s). He has a rig to carry one on each side. However he lives in the SW and wears a vest to do this, which I wouldn't do.

You can conceal just about anything if you really want to. It just depends on what length you are willing to go.

You could see the fellow with a 4" Remington was getting over 900 fps with a 200 grn bullet. That's more than plenty of power. Whacking off another 1/2" as the Avenging Angels wouldn't change that much at all. These are a little large when you compare it to many modern options of similar power for sure. But it's ultimately just the cylinder that's a little wider than your compact .357 sitting there.

Next would have to be the Uberti Colt Police/Navy which is similar enough to a .380 ACP with a bullet. Not exactly bursting with power, but it's certainly done the job plenty of times.

There are people who carry a .22, a .25, or a .32. This can be equalled by a .31 pocket model or the NAA Mini. What people choose to carry is varied just as why they carry. For most instances just producing a firearm disarms the situation. For the times it doesn't just being shot at scatters the criminals. And being shot is taken differently by different people. Having an auto pistol with a dozen rounds and a few spare magazines are hardly warranted for the average person.

To reiterate I've not disagreed with you that a modern firearm isn't a better choice in most instances. I just confronted the inaccurate stance that these BP arms are powerless providing only up to 800 fps from an 8" barrel and maybe 300 fps from a snub nosed pistol. Those figures are only true with weak powders and a ball. But you've stood your ground despite evidence to the contrary, which is bullheaded by definition.

 

[rodwha]

The thing I don't understand is why you stated such and hold your ground as I'm pretty certain you know there are much more powerful powders than standard Goex and the others that will only produce the 7-800 fps with a ball from an 8" barrel.

 

[midland man]

thank god for 4f goex and my two Naa companion and super companion revolvers! I bet no one will stand infront of these little 22 cap-n-ball revolvers... anyone wanna try standing infront of them??

 

[rodwha]

Might even want to try out 4F Swiss.

I'm not really sure how standard Goex 4F would compare to 3F Goex Olde Eynsford or Swiss, or T7, but I'd venture to guess those would be a bit better.

 

[webrx]

not my preference for CCW as stated earlier, but I have a holster for it if I ever decide to I could (the front sight has been cut down since the pic above was taken so it does not snag any longer is is pretty accurate at 7 yards).

I have modern SemiAutos and Revolvers that I do carry so i dont need to carry this one.

I also have an SAA in .357 that is just as heavy and the barrel is 1.5 inches longer (the snub above is 3.25 barrel) that I carry on occasion (mostly open carry, but in winter it could be CCW) so the weight is tolerable.

The above was an experiment, in building a $150 Snub nose (got it on sale at cabelas) and was tempted by guys like dickydalton and johnnycremains. Since it is brass, I have not shot it with more than 25 grains, but, if I dropped that short barrel on a steel frame I could step that up a bit to probably 35 I dont own a chrono so I dont know what speed it will shoot, but it will put a hole through a pine 2x4.

CCW with a BP revolver like this or the snubs Mike and Dicky Daltons posted is indeed possible, again, I dont think that is the best choice, but with the right powder and lead it could be done and I sure would not want to look down the business end of someone intent on shooting me with it.

And like I stated earlier, if you have a steel frame, and stick a conversion cylinder in it, it could be done pretty handily with modern cartridges or BP cartridges - I have a conversion cylinder for my pietta 1858s with a 5.5 inch barrel, maybe I will go shoot some of those at a 2x4 and see what it will do with a 200 or 250 grains of lead.

If I find an 1858 cheap, I may cut one down like in the video, now I think that would be fun with a conversion cylinder and maybe I would carry it.

I had a friend once who unzipped his carhart jacket and pulled a full length .44 caliber 1851 fantasy revolver out of a shoulder holster to show us he had a bigger carry pistol then us (it was a joke, but we didnt know he had it on him until he pulled it).

d

 

[Crawdad1]

thank god for 4f goex and my two Naa companion and super companion revolvers! I bet no one will stand infront of these little 22 cap-n-ball revolvers... anyone wanna try standing infront of them??

Nope.

We'll take your word for it.

 

[HexHead]

I am not trying to be a prick, but there is NO cap and ball gun worthy of carry as in ccw today.. NONE. CCW and BP isn't a home defence weapon choice, and no one who can own a gun in the home needs a ccw permit period.

So if some mug who deserves to be shot and stopped in your home, I suppose use what ever suits you so long as a jury won't consider it cruel and unusal, which any sheeple jury is probably going to convict anyone foolish enough to use a BP pistol, because there is no doubt the jury will find the weapon IS cruel and unusal.

As a carry gun, this thinking is totally of the wall. First off that jury will have the same findings as above, and if your life is really at threat, then you are way under gunned.

You can only safely carry 5 rounds with the hammer down on an empty, and the bad guy is going to be using a semi auto gun.

My head would be Is it going to go bang if I need it too. Did a cap just fall off? Did that bead of sweat get on the caps? Is the grease leaking on my shirt? Can anyone see tha stain? Do they know I am a fool packing a BP heater? Is belly button lint going to jam the action. Oh crap it's raining so I can't go out. Oh crap I just got a flat in the rain. Oh crap I just put the gun on the seat and the nice police man is giving me a queer look.

Oh this is bad the nice policeman just shot himself in the act of confiscating my gun because he didn't know a thing about it!

If you live in New York City and pull this stunt, it is illegal to be in possesion of the weapon and have on hand powder and ball....

About the only thing you can do with a cp and ball pistol unde terms of selfdefence is shoot some alley cat and even then the jury will convict you of cruelty.

What a load of crap. I guess nobody should carry a J-frame either with just those 5 shots?