Cheney shoots hunting buddy (multiple threads merged)

[Ironbarr]

...though it would not have blown up to this degree if Cheney had issued a statement immediately.

I wouldn't put money on that.

If we logged in all the "static" about this now and could roll back the clock and have him report "earlier" and log in that static, it might just show that it's close to the same level.

All:

There has been a [strong] tendency to denigrate this administration, particularly Bush and Cheney, since the very beginning - their first run for the top job.

I believe there wouldn't be much, if any difference.

BTW: I also believe that, if they were brow-beaten, put down, cartooned, called names, threatened, targeted, and every day for the past five years generally pushed around, most folks - especially Americans - would be reacting to all that in a "somewhat antagonistic manner".

I know that if I were "the administration" for the past five years the distractions (war, storms, political wrangling, etc.) keeping me from working toward my campaign goals would be more than frustrating.

But then - this is for another forum/thread.

-AndyB

 

[Camp David]

In the interview Cheney took full responsibility for his actions. He did the right thing....

So you would agree that this story is now finished? That the media are using it now for partisan purposes rather than a legitimate news source?

 

[JohnBT]

"It is what it is, an accident that was handled very poorly by Cheney and or his staff."

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

John

 

[Ironbarr]

As for the idea that this wouldn't have blown up as much if he had spoken about it immediately, I think it would have. The media would have found some other area to focus on, but there would still have been some kind of criticism and outcry. That's what people do when they don't like someone.

Thanks, Calamity. You said it so much more plainer than I did.

-AndyB

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

So you would agree that this story is now finished? That the media are using it now for partisan purposes rather than a legitimate news source?

I wouldn't say it's finished--we will continue to be made aware of Whittington's condition and any future developments, which is proper. We will probably also continue to see the story used for partisan purposes, but you are correct in assuming that any future sensationalistic reporting will be purely partisan.

As for my opinion, I've given countless examples, some statistical and empirical, others purely anecdotal, illustrating why I hold that opinion. Unsupported statements like:

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Remind me of the character of "The Dude" in "The Big Lewbowski," who, when befuddled in the face of the obvious, would make statements like "Well, that's your opinion."

 

[Biker]

The Dude Abides...
Biker

 

[22-rimfire]

Shooter said "Why did Cheney have to go and get the story straight with the rancher before reporting it to the police? It is the job of the police to get the facts straight and not Cheney or his staff."

To even say this indicates you did not read the interview. He didn't get it "straight" with Katerine Armstrong first.... you show your colors quite clearly concerning your view of VP Cheney. Cheney followed the law as best he understood it. It was a mistake he made and a personal matter. His first concern was toward the victim and his family, not the national press.

No matter how Cheney would have handled it, the national press would have made a very big deal about it. Waiting for things to settle down a bit was exactly the right approach to take in terms of any interviews or press conferences with Cheney directly. As Cheney said, the reporter who first reported the story needed some basic understanding of hunting, shotguns, lethality, and reporting it fairly and completely. You can bet that the White House Press corp as a group would not have done this.

 

[#shooter]

disgusting?

This is the most disgusting thread I have ever seen on THR much less a RKBA web site. It is oozing of stupidity and partisian politics. It is sad and I am surprised. I have noticed the tendency for many on this board to be holier than thou with their "gun expertise" but this is awful. No wonder the 2nd amendment is in shreads. To some their political pick-nicking is the most important thing in their lives. For all who want any hunting accident to be tried in criminal court you are cutting your own throats. Our society is sick. BLAME< BLAME<BLAME> I hope someday I have the means to stay at home,turn off the TV, get off the inter-net and forget this society we live in even exists. That is how disgusted I am tonight. I 'm going hunting tomorrow and will try to enjoy myself knowing that if an acccident occurs there are people like many here who will think I am the devil incarnated. Some sound like a bunch of "Fundie" gun owners who I do not wish to ever know.

Please! This site has always had partisain politics, it's just the politics were a little heavy on Republican or Right side. This thread is "Fair and Balanced"

Yes you’re right about the blaming nature of society, which is why this thread has legs. The RKBA crowd criticizes the antis for blaming the guns and not the criminal’s actions for the crime. The RKBA bunch believes (rightly so I may add) that the blame should rest with whoever was responsible for the crime, namely the criminal. Yet, our pro-RKBA VP does not adhere to this principle of responsibility when it counted and essentially blames the victim directly or indirectly. Many pro-RKBA and pro-2A folks are very disappointed that Cheney did not adhere to these principles of personal responsibility that we the RKBA/2A community stands for.

Should this be tried in a criminal court? I don't know, it depends on state laws I guess. Personally, I think a hunting or shooting accident involving injury should be treated like any other accident (car, sports, work) that involves injury. It should be investigated accordingly based on the merits of the case. I think that is the right thing to do. If I am out hunting with my kid and he/she gets shot and injured I want to know if it gross negligence (shooter was drunk randomly shooting) or truly an accident (my kid was calling in a turkey). The courts should only be involved if the police or game warden determines it was negligent.

 

[CalamityJane]

Yet, our pro-RKBA VP does not adhere to this principle of responsibility when it counted and essentially blames the victim directly or indirectly. Many pro-RKBA and pro-2A folks are very disappointed that Cheney did not adhere to these principles of personal responsibility that we the RKBA/2A community stands for.

Not to be disagreeable, but I listened to the VP's interview last evening, and I could swear I heard him say that he took full responsibility, that it wasn't Harry's fault, that he (Cheney) was the one who pulled the trigger. (I'm paraphrasing) Again, not trying to be argumentative, but I haven't heard the VP say anything that "blames the victim", or seen anything that looks as if "Cheney did not adhere to these principles of personal responsibility....".

If I missed something please point me to it, because I am a stickler for taking personal responsibility.

Thanks.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Not to be disagreeable, but I listened to the VP's interview last evening, and I could swear I heard him say that he took full responsibility, that it wasn't Harry's fault, that he (Cheney) was the one who pulled the trigger. (I'm paraphrasing) Again, not trying to be argumentative, but I haven't heard the VP say anything that "blames the victim", or seen anything that looks as if "Cheney did not adhere to these principles of personal responsibility....".

I heard the same thing, and I was pleased to hear him say this. It appears the only people who took the low road of blaming the victim were the spin doctors in the Whitehouse and hear on THR. Cheney's admission was honorable.

 

[#shooter]

What are you talking about?

To even say this indicates you did not read the interview. He didn't get it "straight" with Katerine Armstrong first.... you show your colors quite clearly concerning your view of VP Cheney. Cheney followed the law as best he understood it. It was a mistake he made and a personal matter. His first concern was toward the victim and his family, not the national press.

Criticizing the VP’s actions and asking questions does not mean “I am showing my true colors.” You don’t have to dogmatically defend everything the Cheney does. I wasn’t aware Cheney could do no wrong. Sorry.

I did not say anything about informing the press. Unless you’re reading an interview we don’t know about, no where in the interview does Cheney mention reporting the incident it to the authorities? Cheney shot Whittington, Whittington went to the hospital, and Cheney went back to the ranch to inform Whittington’s family what had happened, then Cheney and Armstrong start working on their story. The interview then goes into who and how to disclose this to the media. When Cheney and Armstrong got back to the ranch they discussed how and who was going to tell the story, right. Don’t you think they should have reported the incident to police or the game wardens somewhere between the shooting and telling the media? Or can the VP just shoot people and not report it to the police. I can tell you this much, if we shot someone and told our local newspaper 12 hrs after it happened without calling the police, we are going to jail. To be fair, Cheney may have reported it to police before having Armstrong go to the media, he just did not mention it, nor was asked about it in the interview. So I ask again, has anyone read or heard when Cheney reported this to the police?

 

[scbair]

Well, VP Cheney did go "public." Now, CNN is criticizing him for giving the interview on Fox News!!!

Nah, no media spin here!

 

[22-rimfire]

From the Fox News Interview:

"HUME: Right, and so you know all the procedures and how to maintain the proper line and distance between you and other hunters, and all that. So how, in your judgment, did this happen? Who — what caused this? What was the responsibility here?

CHENEY: Well, ultimately, I'm the guy who pulled the trigger that fired the round that hit Harry. And you can talk about all of the other conditions that existed at the time, but that's the bottom line. And there's no — it was not Harry's fault. You can't blame anybody else. I'm the guy who pulled the trigger and shot my friend. And I say that is something I'll never forget."

Does this look like a guy who didn't take responsibility or tried to blame the event on other factors?

I personally find it gratifying that Cheney chose to have the exclusive interview with Fox news and in particular Brit Hume. CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC>> in your face. You can report what others have reported.

Shooter said "...then Cheney and Armstrong start working on their story. "

Didn't you see the report filed by the Texas DNR or whatever it's called. The police were there. The question was never posed during the interview about the authorites other than the business about the stamp he didn't have. You interpret that Cheney and Armstrong got together to get their "story straight" like they are hiding something. You weren't just asking questions, you were making judgements like most of us do when voicing our opinions.

 

[#shooter]

yes he did

Not to be disagreeable, but I listened to the VP's interview last evening, and I could swear I heard him say that he took full responsibility, that it wasn't Harry's fault, that he (Cheney) was the one who pulled the trigger. (I'm paraphrasing) Again, not trying to be argumentative, but I haven't heard the VP say anything that "blames the victim", or seen anything that looks as if "Cheney did not adhere to these principles of personal responsibility....".

If I missed something please point me to it, because I am a stickler for taking personal responsibility.

Thanks.

Yes he did. It's just the Whitehouse spin machine (Bush's and Cheney's staff) and Armstrong to a degree tried to place the blame elsewhere. Armstrong said "this happens all the time." Maybe on her ranch, but hunting accidents have been on the decline nationally and in Texas for some time.
I am glad Cheney did own up to it, too bad it took this long. Many percieve that Cheney was pressured by the Republican leadership to do this interview. In the end he did the right thing and that is all that matters.

 

[#shooter]

He picked a nice friendly new outlet.

From the Fox News Interview:

"HUME: Right, and so you know all the procedures and how to maintain the proper line and distance between you and other hunters, and all that. So how, in your judgment, did this happen? Who — what caused this? What was the responsibility here?

CHENEY: Well, ultimately, I'm the guy who pulled the trigger that fired the round that hit Harry. And you can talk about all of the other conditions that existed at the time, but that's the bottom line. And there's no — it was not Harry's fault. You can't blame anybody else. I'm the guy who pulled the trigger and shot my friend. And I say that is something I'll never forget."

Does this look like a guy who didn't take responsibility or tried to blame the event on other factors?

I personally find it gratifying that Cheney chose to have the exclusive interview with Fox news and in particular Brit Hume. CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC>> in your face. You can report what others have reported.

Shooter said "...then Cheney and Armstrong start working on their story. "

Didn't you see the report filed by the Texas DNR or whatever it's called. The police were there. The question was never posed during the interview about the authorites. You interpret that Cheney and Armstrong got together to get their "story straight" like they are hiding something. You weren't just asking questions, you were making judgements like most of us do when voicing our opinions.

Can't fault him for that.

 

[Maxwell]

It was an accident. There are car accidents, there are accidents in sports, and this was a hunting accident. The VP got on stage for an interview to say "I was an accident".
I dont see how someone falling off a scooter, tripping at the golf course, or being involved with any other kind of accident is now responsable for holding a press conference just to say they had an accident.

Move along, nothing to see here.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

What bothers me is that they tried every trick in the book to pass the buck... to first cover it up, then blame the victim before Cheney finally taking blame on a partisan show where he would not have to face tough questions. It is pretty clear they only did this because of the negative backlash they received by blaming the victim. I would not be suprised to find out that the NRA even took a stance and applied some pressure. I even hear now that Rove was meeting with the ranch owner within a couple hours of the shooting. Cheney should have held a press conference to deal with the situation. Something that he has not done since 2002. The founding fathers where pretty clear that transparency in govt is pretty vital and Cheney is the antithesis of this.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

What bothers me is that they tried every trick in the book to pass the buck.

I never thought I'd be defending Dick Cheney, even in part, but though I agree with everything you say about this administration, in all fairness we don't know if Cheney himself tried to pass the buck. He may have just been in shock and feeling terrible--I know that's how I'd feel if I were him. While he tried to collect his thoughts the White House spin doctors immediately launched into their sleazy trade, just as you describe, but that doesn't necessarily reflect on Cheney, at least not in this case (he did hire the scum in the first place).

Like I said, I am no Cheney supporter, but in this case, because of his honest admission of responsibility, I think we have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[#shooter]

I agree

I never thought I'd be defending Dick Cheney, even in part, but though I agree with everything you say about this administration, in all fairness we don't know if Cheney himself tried to pass the buck. He may have just been in shock and feeling terrible--I know that's how I'd feel if I were him. While he tried to collect his thoughts the White House spin doctors immediately launched into their sleazy trade, just as you describe, but that doesn't necessarily reflect on Cheney, at least not in this case (he did hire the scum in the first place).

Like I said, I am no Cheney supporter, but in this case, because of his honest admission of responsibility, I think we have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

We don't know if Cheney was responsible for the all, some, or none of the spin the administration started cranking out. The interview did correct the administration spin that was starting to getting out of control. Now if we could only control the Media spin.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Now if we could only control the Media spin.

If we could control the media spin, we would be living in a country very much like modern China.

 

[#shooter]

Well...Not that much control.

If we could control the media spin, we would be living in a country very much like modern China.

Good point. Allow me to rephrase it. I would like the media to report more facts as facts and less opinion as facts.

 

[Specialized]

You said you have facts. That you won't share them raises doubts.

LOL! Really? Doubts of what? Doubts that I'm dumb enough to sit here and reel off the dozens of supporting FACTS so that you can sit back in your easy chair and skeet-shoot your own spin at each one? Grip Thyself, Pal! Again, nice try. But you're slipping.

Did you do your homework and look up the reference I provided? It's pretty good stuff...

Enjoy your day!

 

[Camp David]

If we could control the media spin, we would be living in a country very much like modern China.

Lobotomy Boy: Nobody wishes to deny First Amendment and Freedom of the Press rules; but this Cheney incident seems to have backfired on the White House Press Corps. From what I am reading on numerous blogs (both Dem and Rep) the White House media's objection to the delay in incident announcement was soley based on their unhappiness with being scooped! The media's behavior in the press briefing however, needs to be addressed.

As I mentioned earlier, it bears repetition for Scott McClellan to remind the media, particular the White House pool reporters, that they are allowed in the White House as guests. The media is a private, for profit entity, and as such gets their news from the White House at taxpayer expense. Further animalistic behavior from the White House pool reporters should be dealt with by wholesale eviction of such reporters and the revocation of their White House pass...

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

The media's behavior in the press briefing however, needs to be addressed.

Address away. That's why we have a free press.

As I mentioned earlier, it bears repetition for Scott McClellan to remind the media, particular the White House pool reporters, that they are allowed in the White House as guests. The media is a private, for profit entity, and as such gets their news from the White House at taxpayer expense. Further animalistic behavior from the White House pool reporters should be dealt with by wholesale eviction of such reporters and the revocation of their White House pass.

Go for it. If you think people are torqued at the Bush administration now, eject the press corps from the Whitehouse and watch what support there remains wither into oblivion. Doing this would play right into the hands of those who are calling the president "King George," but it would be typical of the arrogant, hubris-ridden, ham-fisted way in which this administration has handled everything else from the moment it took control of the executive branch.

 

[Specialized]

I finally got to see the recorded interview Cheney did with FauxNews this morning, and I have to say I'm gratified that he set the record straight. There is no room for equivocation in his declaration of culpability, and I'm very glad to hear that come from him. As an aside, it was also the most heartfelt words I've ever heard him speak. It was a very good interview, and he scored big points with me -- I have more respect for him now because of what he said. I'm happy that the shooter's commandments that we all work hard to live by have been vindicated, too, and not sullied by White House, VP, and press spin that blames the victim.

Upon reflection, I've come to realize that the big issues in this incident for me personally were the lack of personal responsibility (which Cheney admirably rectified), and the fact that others were running roughshod over the cardinal rules that earnest and responsible shooters live by and take very seriously. I'd like to see someone in the press challenge Spin-Boy on the latter in the next WHPB, but I'll bet it doesn't happen.

Another aside -- anybody else notice that the NRA hasn't made a peep throughout this little episode? I would have expected some sort of missive from them by now. I know it's a big supporter that's involved, but still...