Congress reaches deal to fund gun violence research for first time in decades

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I think that one of the ivy league area medical journals issued a proclamation decades ago that a gun in the home will probably increase the incidence of homicide in the household. A branch of the CDC was involved in the study. It went nowhere because of a then-powerful opposition. It is going somewhere this time with a whole lot of money and no fear.
 
I think that one of the ivy league area medical journals issued a proclamation decades ago that a gun in the home will probably increase the incidence of homicide in the household. A branch of the CDC was involved in the study. It went nowhere because of a then-powerful opposition. It is going somewhere this time with a whole lot of money and no fear.


Thanks Thibault, I had forgotten that study.

What that research demonstrated was something demonstrating problems of cause and effect. The whole argument was that guns kill people rather than people chose to use guns to kill themselves. Japan, for some reason, has a very high suicide rate that has been higher than the U.S.for some time and also lacks any ordinary citizen access to firearms at all. Thus, if a person decides to commit suicide, they can and do demonstrate something called the substitution effect--that is, they will substitute alternative means if the primary preferred one is not available. Rope or something comparable, is apparently available even in Epstein's single occupancy maximum security cell. There is a suspicion that some vehicular deaths for example are in fact suicides as are probably some drug overdoses. Then, there are blades, shocks, drowning, and other morbid ways of suicide, even suicide by cop for example.

Thus, the will to die is primary and then the means is secondary to the original independent decision. Guns may be the primary use for males in this country simple because they are widespread among a particular demographic more likely to kill themselves-white adult males in rural areas.

There was a similar ecological fallacy used where the the incidences of suicides per state was tied to the accessibility of guns. That is they were using aggregate level data at the state level to predict individual decisions in a causative manner. It may well have been other reasons--poverty, illegal drug use, longterm joblessness, divorce, access to health care, and so on.
 
Guns do bad things. They some rust, others malfunction and the really evil ones throw your brass into the woods, thus not allowing it to be recycled.


The truly evil ones throw brass into your face.
 
@boom boom

My point regarding the potential of such research, is based upon my interest in seeing statistical breakdowns of the data, following the initial research findings.

For example: What percentage on non-suicide based "gun-violence" in the home is from homeowners defending themselves from intruders? What percentage, is from ex-cons in the form of domestic violence? Outside the home, what percentage is gang-on-gang "gun-violence"? What percentage is CCW holder self defense?

It seems to me that for the anti-gun crowd to come up with any meaningful "facts" about how bad guns are for society, they'd have to cherry pick to a large degree. And where there's cherry picking, there's a whole bunch more data that can tell a very different story.

Perhaps I'm being too optimistic. But I can't see any logical reason that gun-control advocates in goverment could so effectively influence such a study, whilst gun-rights advocates in goverment could not.

But I'm not here to argue. I'm just expressing my point of view. I think if such a study were done with comprehensive data sets, it might be quite illuminating.
 
Studied a few years ago and downplayed due to results not helping the gun control crowd. Scroll towards the bottom for findings.

https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/cdc-gun-research-backfires-on-obama/249799


I was going to bring this up but saw that you beat me to it. A couple interesting findings to me were the estimates of legit defensive gun use (anything from defensive display to lethal force) ranged into the millions annually, and those that used a gun in self defense suffered less-severe injuries than those who did not.
 
You can't get any more anti-gun than these two organizations. Results of this study: Guns are to blame for "gun violence", get rid of guns and no more violence. T
Well, actually, if you go grubbing through the reams of dead trees they generate, an amazing pattern emerges.
  • It turns out bad people do bad things, and bad people tend to not obey laws. Any laws.
  • Also, more guns does not equal more crime. Fewer guns does not equal less crime. Go figure.
  • Statistically speaking gun laws only make law abiding people into criminals, not turn criminals to the law-abiding.
About 2000 or so, they go tired of gettign the same answer no matter how they asked the question, so they stopped bothering.

Which is the "empty space" the EA penned by 44 was supposed to "fix" by doing "more research."

This will fare no better. When you start from a flawed premise you will not get the desired result. Except, perhaps in Gender Studies.
 
Thanks Thibault, I had forgotten that study.

What that research demonstrated was something demonstrating problems of cause and effect. The whole argument was that guns kill people rather than people chose to use guns to kill themselves. Japan, for some reason, has a very high suicide rate that has been higher than the U.S.for some time and also lacks any ordinary citizen access to firearms at all. Thus, if a person decides to commit suicide, they can and do demonstrate something called the substitution effect--that is, they will substitute alternative means if the primary preferred one is not available. Rope or something comparable, is apparently available even in Epstein's single occupancy maximum security cell. There is a suspicion that some vehicular deaths for example are in fact suicides as are probably some drug overdoses. Then, there are blades, shocks, drowning, and other morbid ways of suicide, even suicide by cop for example.

Japan has a high suicide rate because it isn't considered taboo like in the USA and Japanese insurance policies pay out for suicide. For someone that has run up a large debt it is considered honorable for the debtor to kill themselves so that their family can use the insurance payout to settle the debt.

The difference between guns and other substitutes is the effectiveness of a gun and the fact there is no chance to change one's mind once the trigger is pulled. Someone that attempts suicide by drug overdose has time to change their mind and summon help. That is one reason that rural white males have such high suicide rates. The most popular suicide method for men is shooting oneself with a firearm. 85% succeed in killing themselves. The most popular method for women is poisoning with pills. Pills have a 2% success rate.

If the USA wants to tackle death by firearms the number one target should be reducing firearm suicides. Some research on the topic may be useful.
 
I think they will find what they want to find and their solutions will be what we suspect they will be.

I wonder if any part of their studies will focus on the American psyche and the effects of constant bombardment of political correctness, false or manipulated news and information and the constant tearing down of traditions and American values.
Americans have always been and will always be “rebellious”. If you tell us that we can’t have something, even if we don’t want or need it we will want it because we are rebellious. Examples:
1980’s snd 1990’s - The media went on a frenzy about all things Pit Bull. People wanted to outright kill them all in some towns. What is America’s Dog today? They are everywhere.
Early 1990’s - Diane Feinstein and her ilk wanted to ban SUVs. What became the hottest selling vehicle?
1994 Assault weapons ban - Lookie what happened with this one. It sunsetted and sales soared.
2008 President Obama elected. Gun sales soared because of comments he made during his campaign.
2012 and beyond - Psycho shooters bring semi auto military looking rifles into the limelight again. Threats of bans and people that never wanted AR-15s or standard capacity handguns bought them in droves.
Another thing That everyone despises, not just Americans, are bureaucrats trying to influence people’s lives. People will rebel, some more than others.
This study will take years and in the end will galvanize us even more.
 
Japan has a high suicide rate because it isn't considered taboo like in the USA and Japanese insurance policies pay out for suicide. For someone that has run up a large debt it is considered honorable for the debtor to kill themselves so that their family can use the insurance payout to settle the debt.

The difference between guns and other substitutes is the effectiveness of a gun and the fact there is no chance to change one's mind once the trigger is pulled. Someone that attempts suicide by drug overdose has time to change their mind and summon help. That is one reason that rural white males have such high suicide rates. The most popular suicide method for men is shooting oneself with a firearm. 85% succeed in killing themselves. The most popular method for women is poisoning with pills. Pills have a 2% success rate.

If the USA wants to tackle death by firearms the number one target should be reducing firearm suicides. Some research on the topic may be useful.

I hate to say it like heck but more studies are not going to come up with a magic bullet that causes 30000k per year to stop trying to kill themselves unless you remove the underlying causes. Deaths by suicide and by crime have more or less devastated families and friends. Like war, causal factors in suicides have been known for centuries in the West since ancient Greece. And by and large, society at this time has more or less decided that we will ignore the underlying causes: the disintegration of family and friends, the move away from religion, the media and politicians preaching doom and end of the world statements, the lack of meaningful participation in society for a lot of folks, the scapegoating of those society deems not in favor with said media, academia, and politicians, the financial and health woes of individuals including terminal illness, and so on. The cause is that there is widespread hopelessness for various individuals in a large swath of the public in civilized countries which is also indicated by falling birth rates among the native populations. While historically compared with other times, as a society, we have never had it so good materially, a substantial number of people feel a void in their lives that leads to destructive behavior either to themselves or society. Ironically, the Roman Empire demonstrated a similar death wish when its standard of living would not be repeated for nearly two millennia.

Studies are the traditional placebo by the policy community uses to recommend policies that they like and conduct more studies which provide work to those doing them. It may also provide politicians with a few policy recommendations that for the most part will be buried and ignored unless quick and easy to implement (which are usually ineffective).

Unfortunately, laws regarding firearms are an easy reach for the medical community, ambitious politicians, and non-gun owners as it does not affect them and any policy failure can always be followed by if the laws were even tougher without "loopholes" that gun owners call constitutional rights. Rinse and repeat as needed until no guns are allowed but the problem persists which means that you go after other easy targets such as substance abuse. Substance abuse, both legal and illegal, increases the risk of suicide. But, substance abuse is similar to suicide as it has multiple causal factors which are difficult to fix by laws and studies.

It more or less made my point above in a post in that Japanese males, despite lack of firearms, somehow manage to kill themselves in large numbers because that to them is an acceptable option. Romans also did quite well figuring out ways to kill themselves without firearms with similar societal approval. Today, a rather repellent feature of the internet is finding easy ways of all sorts of self harm or committing mayhem. A favorite way among South Koreans is carbon monoxide poisoning and jumping from heights. In the U.S., the ready availability of Fentanyl or other street drugs offers an option. Belgium allows physician assisted suicide which apparently why it has a high levels of suicides. Chinese uses insecticides and other industrial poisons.

Suicide is a problem throughout the civilized and civilizing world (not that you would know it if you are informed by the media) and ironically some of the worst places to live apparently have low suicide rates such as Afghanistan. Here is the crux of the issue, if society banned and removed all firearms today, leaving aside the explosion of violent crime that would ensue, I predict that you would see little if no movement on suicide numbers but rather a shift in means of doing so.

Dealing with suicide as a policy area is like restoring function to our inner cities, everyone knows more or less what has to be done but society in general is unwilling to do so because sacred cows will have to be gored. For example, a group of about 2500 to 10000 gang members are driving most of the horrendous violent crime rate in Chicago. If they were eliminated via a harsh application of the death penalty (no outside replacements would be allowed) and everyone accepted that as a viable option, then deaths by homicide would drop tremendously in subsequent years. If you wish for a more humane solution, you ship them to Johnson's Atoll in the Pacific or incarcerate them in a new Super Max for belonging to a gang.

But, the center of dysfunction existing in Chicago would eventually spawn a replacement of these individuals because A) people still want to do illegal drugs and do illegal things, B) a certain percentage of people have nurture and nature issues that will predispose them toward violent behavior to others for power and pleasure, C) you will still have the dysfunctional schools, families of a sort, joblessness, and so on.

This is not to preach hopelessness but that politicians and bureaucracies (even voters) simply do not handle difficult multifaceted problems that will take years to resolve very well. The overwhelming incentive in our democracy is to do a policy, declare the problem solved for now, and move on.

Remember, Just Say No is an example--just how well did that work over time? Despite the derision that phrase gets today, the government through the political system tried its best along with academia, medical experts, media, the law, and so on to eliminate the use of harmful drugs in society.

Did it work? Well, it worked for those persuadable and heroin and cocaine consumption dropped but obviously the whole policy complex was blindsided by crack cocaine in the 1990's, The policy system adjusted to fight that and now we have the return of heroin and now fentanyl along with other illegal drugs and governments have given up essentially on marijuana. Thus, Kipling's God of the Copybook Headings returns more or less. The problem is human nature, not its tools, and the absence of love, kindness, and caring in society, including its "losers", is beyond the power of the policy establishment to fix.

In such a situation, I give a few gun related policy examples that will do little to resolve the issue for society. For example, take safe storage laws--this is not going to stop a determined person with a lot of time and an angle grinder or in some cases a crowbar. Another favorite, more mental health screenings--the incidence of mental illness has not demonstrated a surge in numbers that we see in suicide rates over recent years. Most people with mental health issues do not kill themselves. Ironically, diverting policy attention and money into screenings as a sorting mechanism for firearm ownership both discourages people from seeking help and work poorly with too many false positives. The result is that it takes away liberty from those with no intentions of hurting themselves without addressing the primary issue of suicide. In a satirical vein, maybe we should dose everyone with anti-depressants that have trauma and promote self esteem to children regardless of their behavior? More or less some psychologists have held that a majority of the population is mentally ill at one time or another so why not. Well, a fair number of anti-depressants warn of side effects including suicidal thoughts in some and self esteem raising seems to have backfired in creating brittle narcissists that cannot adjust to adverse opinions and circumstances. I can go on and on as I have done policy research in the past.

A favorite simple solution by policymakers, interest groups, and politicians are new laws to address complex problems. However, new laws that ignore individuals' free agency do little to drain the swamp so to speak. Laws are always tempting solutions to politicians, especially if they only impinge on freedom--not a person's money, because the politician can point to the law and argue that the problem was solved. Voters do not mind imposing on other people's liberty because they do not see themselves in the same light. In a few years, when the fact that the problem was not solved comes about, the politician can point to the failure as that the law unfortunately was not strict enough and more laws are needed. Far too many voters have swallowed this line time and again. That failure of a particular policy means that you need to double down on that policy rather than abandoning it. People simply cannot abide sunk costs on a mistake.

In this issue, doctors and medical researchers figure out medical ways to treat a condition which ignores why the condition exists in the first place. That is what their training and outlook is but being a physician to society versus an individual usually loses something in the translation. This approach also ignores that people contemplating suicide have agency, they have choice, and they can choose in some degree to not do it.
 
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Perhaps I'm being too optimistic. But I can't see any logical reason that gun-control advocates in goverment could so effectively influence such a study, whilst gun-rights advocates in goverment could not.

But I'm not here to argue. I'm just expressing my point of view. I think if such a study were done with comprehensive data sets, it might be quite illuminating.

I'm not here to "argue" either. But, unless you can identify who the "gun-rights" advocates in government are, being "too optimistic" is akin to professing a certain degree of naivety. If you can point to any government entity that has a history of advocating for gun rights, I am all ears and would find such information "quite illuminating".
 
This is par for the course for Democrats. They pay other liberal Democrats to produce a report that backs up their position. It is then published with little to no truth or facts. Then they 'say see we were right all along'. SOP.
 
“I think that one of the ivy league area medical journals issued a proclamation decades ago that a gun in the home will probably increase the incidence of homicide in the household.“
That’s because a can of gasoline and a match is much messier and you might burn yourself.
Suicide is a release from the pain. The victim is not looking to trade one pain for another.
Nor do they care if they leave a good looking corpse.
 
I'm not here to "argue" either. But, unless you can identify who the "gun-rights" advocates in government are, being "too optimistic" is akin to professing a certain degree of naivety. If you can point to any government entity that has a history of advocating for gun rights, I am all ears and would find such information "quite illuminating".

Well, I'm pretty sure most Republicans are pro gun-rights. They certainly campaign on it. I think there's a few of them in the government some place or another. There might even be one or two members of the Supreme Court that believe in the Constitution.

Of course there are some people who think that any member of Congress that isn't actively fighting to get them legal access to heavy artillery, isn't a supporter of the 2A. There's not much I can say to those individuals. If someone desperately wants to believe that the world is against them, I can do nothing to change their mind.
 
That's just $25 mill that could be spent on the wall. They are just looking for any reason to spend tax dollars at inflated rates to themselves. CDC already puts out an annual on gun deaths. They don't have to pay for it just look at it. The real question is where is that money going really.
 
Well, I'm pretty sure most Republicans are pro gun-rights. They certainly campaign on it. I think there's a few of them in the government some place or another. There might even be one or two members of the Supreme Court that believe in the Constitution.

Of course there are some people who think that any member of Congress that isn't actively fighting to get them legal access to heavy artillery, isn't a supporter of the 2A. There's not much I can say to those individuals. If someone desperately wants to believe that the world is against them, I can do nothing to change their mind.

It is not so much dealing with members of Congress as it is the public health bureaucracy. They are anti-gun and will have the control over the people they pick for the study and supervise the writing of it. Republicans created a rule to prevent pork barrel spending that prevents them from submitting earmarks which would bypass this issue. Unfortunately, it means that favorable representatives to gun rights cannot specify and control much in how the CDC and NIH pick the researchers and issue their reports regarding "gun safety" and "gun violence".
 
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That's just $25 mill that could be spent on the wall. They are just looking for any reason to spend tax dollars at inflated rates to themselves. CDC already puts out an annual on gun deaths. They don't have to pay for it just look at it. The real question is where is that money going really.

This is one of the easier graphical information sources. http://usa.v1.abalancingact.com/ Health care spending and Social Security are about half the budget and add in defense, and interest on the debt another 25-30 percent. The rest is discretionary spending .
 
This is one of the easier graphical information sources. http://usa.v1.abalancingact.com/ Health care spending and Social Security are about half the budget and add in defense, and interest on the debt another 25-30 percent. The rest is discretionary spending .
And that only fuels my point, $1.2 Trillion to Health Care. Center for Disease Control (CDC) is definitely in that category. We already give them the funds that this falls under. Sounds like more slush fund and kick back $$.
 
And that only fuels my point, $1.2 Trillion to Health Care. Center for Disease Control (CDC) is definitely in that category. We already give them the funds that this falls under. Sounds like more slush fund and kick back $$.
You have a skeptical mind and I wish there were more of people like you in the voter pool.
 
WrongHanded said:
Well, I'm pretty sure most Republicans are pro gun-rights. They certainly campaign on it. I think there's a few of them in the government some place or another. There might even be one or two members of the Supreme Court that believe in the Constitution.

Of course there are some people who think that any member of Congress that isn't actively fighting to get them legal access to heavy artillery, isn't a supporter of the 2A. There's not much I can say to those individuals. If someone desperately wants to believe that the world is against them, I can do nothing to change their mind.

boom boom said:
It is not so much that dealing with members of Congress as it is the public health bureaucracy that is anti-gun is the one that will have the control over the people they pick for the study and supervise the writing of it.

What boom boom said is what I've been saying: It's not Senators or Representatives, irrespective of party affiliation, that I'm referencing. It's the money that goes to government ideological "research" entities; in this case, to study the causes of gun violence and to offer supposed "remedies", but having only one purpose in mind: to give a pretext for bureaucrats to compromise your Second Amendment rights. Advocates of gun rights will be helping to pay for more gun control.
 
25 million $ to a U.S. government agency is like $1.36 to a citizen making 100k per year.

The only thing they will accomplish with this is to come up with a study as to why they need more money to study the issue.
 
I am curious if they will still accept the data when they find out that it goes against what they are wanting it to conclude. The last CDC study that was conducted on a large scale supported the finding that gun ownership didn't cause crime to increase, it actually had the opposite effect. They swept that study under the rug because it didn't support their claims. How convenient.
 
I've always been of the opinion that if you want to do damage to yourself or someone else badly enough you will find a way to make it happen. The mechanics of it wouldn't necessarily have to include a gun. I suppose having a gun handy could expedite the situation but the only solution to that scenario is unthinkable to me. I own a gun for self defense. Obviously, I felt the need. Perhaps they should direct their studies to why I felt that need.

Anyway, it will all have to be statistical. How else could it be? Further, it is a done deal so I am going to try and be as positive as I can about it until I see the underpinnings of the study. Unfortunately, the ridiculousness of the atmosphere surrounding some of our lawmakers at present does make me somewhat more than cautious.

I am a gun ownership advocate. Some people are not. I don't want the CDC study to be about the difference.
 
I am curious if they will still accept the data when they find out that it goes against what they are wanting it to conclude. The last CDC study that was conducted on a large scale supported the finding that gun ownership didn't cause crime to increase, it actually had the opposite effect. They swept that study under the rug because it didn't support their claims. How convenient.

That is a good point. It depends on the honesty of the journal and funding agency. Studies against the anti gun meme have appeared. Kleck's book Point Blank - won a national award. In a politicized world, data not supporting the view of the organization, can be suppressed. The right and left try to do that. Sad state of affairs.

Sometimes the situation is self-correcting in the long run. For example, Bellesiles' book Arming America which attempted to show the guns weren't a significant part of early America (which weakened the historical case for the 2nd Amendment) came out and won awards. It was on the cover of the NY Times book review and Chronicle of Higher Education as a wonderful exposition that attacked the foundation of gun rights. However, it was bogus as determined by both progun folks and some neutral but expert academics on the methodology. In fact, there was one prof who didn't like guns but didn't like bogus data. They vaporized his claim, the book awards were withdrawn with prominent stories in the Times and Chronicle of the debacle. His career was ruined.

So it is a mixed bag. Given a hot social issue, politicians and researchers can consciously and unconsciously be biased.
 
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