NavyLCDR
member
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Convincing my Mom that it's okay for me to OC
- Thread starter Skribs
- Start date
- Status
Just a thought for those in the thread who infer that OC is simply an attempt to be provocative.
What about those of us who have no intentions of purchasing a permission slip for an enumerated right and happen to not live in a Constitutional carry state? Or those of us, who for whatever reason do not yet qualify for said permission slip?
Are we being provocative, or do we OC for the same reason many people CC, for personal protection for ourselves and loved ones? I can't speak for everyone, but personally, I OC for the latter.
To those who claim OC calls attention to yourself, have you ever OC'd? I find that when I am out and about, most people are too oblivious to their surroundings to even notice that I'm carrying a full-size handgun on my hip. Generally, the only people who notice are children who happen to be at eye level with my hip.
What about those of us who have no intentions of purchasing a permission slip for an enumerated right and happen to not live in a Constitutional carry state? Or those of us, who for whatever reason do not yet qualify for said permission slip?
Are we being provocative, or do we OC for the same reason many people CC, for personal protection for ourselves and loved ones? I can't speak for everyone, but personally, I OC for the latter.
To those who claim OC calls attention to yourself, have you ever OC'd? I find that when I am out and about, most people are too oblivious to their surroundings to even notice that I'm carrying a full-size handgun on my hip. Generally, the only people who notice are children who happen to be at eye level with my hip.
Ringolevio
Member
Hey, I got your "open carry" right HERE!
Skribs:
'Sorry, Skribs, but it appears to me that you have only thought this through to the point of rationalizing what you have already made up your mind to do.
You probably don't walk down any really mean streets. OC can be fine, and can be a fine deterrent, when the areas you frequent are populated largely by civilized, polite people.
But there are parts of most American cities where you will routinely encounter folks who, all day long, are preoccupied with establishing or keeping their place in the pecking order, and who will see a challenge in something as simple as a look, or the way you walk down "their" street. And these are folks who would have no interest in bothering you if you were just another dork and didn't draw attention to yourself.
I grew up in a neighborhood where the graffiti announced whose "turf" it was and admonished "No bopping allowed". And, since then, I've had to operate in many neighborhoods just like that, and worse.
In such situations, you have far more options if you can blend in, be unobtrusive, stay under the radar and not get anybody's hackles up.
You can think of yourself as an "E&E type", but OC will severely limit your E&E options, if not take them off the table altogether. It all but ensures that E&E, or any other tactic short of gunplay, will fail; you will be challenged, tested and pushed into gunplay.
On those mean streets, OC doesn't say "Leave me alone"; it says, "Don't permit me to pass unchallenged".
I know that none of this is going to convince you, especially since you are getting some very unwise advice from others here (who are, like you, desperately reaching for rationalizations). But trust me on this, you will always be far better served by CAMOUFLAGE & STEALTH.
Skribs:
'Sorry, Skribs, but it appears to me that you have only thought this through to the point of rationalizing what you have already made up your mind to do.
You probably don't walk down any really mean streets. OC can be fine, and can be a fine deterrent, when the areas you frequent are populated largely by civilized, polite people.
But there are parts of most American cities where you will routinely encounter folks who, all day long, are preoccupied with establishing or keeping their place in the pecking order, and who will see a challenge in something as simple as a look, or the way you walk down "their" street. And these are folks who would have no interest in bothering you if you were just another dork and didn't draw attention to yourself.
I grew up in a neighborhood where the graffiti announced whose "turf" it was and admonished "No bopping allowed". And, since then, I've had to operate in many neighborhoods just like that, and worse.
In such situations, you have far more options if you can blend in, be unobtrusive, stay under the radar and not get anybody's hackles up.
You can think of yourself as an "E&E type", but OC will severely limit your E&E options, if not take them off the table altogether. It all but ensures that E&E, or any other tactic short of gunplay, will fail; you will be challenged, tested and pushed into gunplay.
On those mean streets, OC doesn't say "Leave me alone"; it says, "Don't permit me to pass unchallenged".
I know that none of this is going to convince you, especially since you are getting some very unwise advice from others here (who are, like you, desperately reaching for rationalizations). But trust me on this, you will always be far better served by CAMOUFLAGE & STEALTH.
That may very well apply in those mean streets, but I don't frequent those areas, and I can always CC if I'm in one of those areas where I think OC is more likely to lead to someone accosting me.
I wouldn't say that we're grasping for rationalizations, though. Technically, anything used to explain something can be called a "rationalization", but deterrence is a very valid point. I know if I was prowling the streets and I see two people - one who has a gun on his hip and one who doesn't, I would be more likely to mug the person who doesn't. Not that I would, but if I put myself in that situation, then that's what I'd do.
I wouldn't say that we're grasping for rationalizations, though. Technically, anything used to explain something can be called a "rationalization", but deterrence is a very valid point. I know if I was prowling the streets and I see two people - one who has a gun on his hip and one who doesn't, I would be more likely to mug the person who doesn't. Not that I would, but if I put myself in that situation, then that's what I'd do.
Skribs,
You've already decided to OC. Decision is made.
I love and respect my Mother however she is not on my radar regarding personal carry/purchase decisions. Take "Mommy" out of the equation, be a full grown man, standing on your hind legs and remember, when you bouce these kinds-of ideas off of her, she changed your diapers and remembers you as that baby-boy she bore and nurtured, first.
Doing what you decide to do and love/respect for your Mom are not mutually exclusive.
You show no disrespect if you do not put yourself in the adversarial position by bringing it up in the first place. I just show-up at my folks, as expected, cc, oc, it's not a bone of contention because it's a done deal when I visit.
Mike
You've already decided to OC. Decision is made.
I love and respect my Mother however she is not on my radar regarding personal carry/purchase decisions. Take "Mommy" out of the equation, be a full grown man, standing on your hind legs and remember, when you bouce these kinds-of ideas off of her, she changed your diapers and remembers you as that baby-boy she bore and nurtured, first.
Doing what you decide to do and love/respect for your Mom are not mutually exclusive.
You show no disrespect if you do not put yourself in the adversarial position by bringing it up in the first place. I just show-up at my folks, as expected, cc, oc, it's not a bone of contention because it's a done deal when I visit.
Mike
Ringolevio
Member
An exercise in futility
Well, Skribs, I can see that any attempt by me, or the few other voices of reason here, to make you reconsider your decision about OC constitutes an exercise in futility, especially when you are getting so much unwise advice here supporting your decision.
I guess I will never be as wise as a 23 yr. old whose mind is made up. If even your own mother (who is not anti-gun) can't sway you, how can a faceless voice on an internet forum do so (especially some hairbag old enough to be your grandfather)?
So, go do what you're gonna do, and good luck to you. I give up. I won't bother you about this again. I hope you survive and don't cause any needless harm.
I am compelled to comment on this, however:
You have no idea who Johnny Cash was! Incredible!
'Ever see a scene like this in an old war movie?
Let's say you were trying to get back inside the wire of an American position in the dark, and you were suspected of being a hostile who had learned to speak English with an American accent, and you were asked a question about Johnny Cash, and you didn't have a clue who Johnny Cash was...what do you reckon would happen to you?
Well, Skribs, I can see that any attempt by me, or the few other voices of reason here, to make you reconsider your decision about OC constitutes an exercise in futility, especially when you are getting so much unwise advice here supporting your decision.
I guess I will never be as wise as a 23 yr. old whose mind is made up. If even your own mother (who is not anti-gun) can't sway you, how can a faceless voice on an internet forum do so (especially some hairbag old enough to be your grandfather)?
So, go do what you're gonna do, and good luck to you. I give up. I won't bother you about this again. I hope you survive and don't cause any needless harm.
I am compelled to comment on this, however:
You have no idea who Johnny Cash was! Incredible!
'Ever see a scene like this in an old war movie?
Let's say you were trying to get back inside the wire of an American position in the dark, and you were suspected of being a hostile who had learned to speak English with an American accent, and you were asked a question about Johnny Cash, and you didn't have a clue who Johnny Cash was...what do you reckon would happen to you?
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I don't like open carry and never have.
There are too many jerks that love to demonstrate they have a weapon for sheer intimidation purposes (ever seen the Black Panthers in action?). In fact, while I have only met two people that open carry, they did seem very much like the jerk type that didn't just happen to open carry, but seemed to do so expressly so everyone knew to respect them and both had very adversarial attitudes IMO. *rolleyes*
It also makes some people uncomfortable, and while that is their problem, that does nothing to help gun advocacy to constantly throw it in their face with a big .454 Casul dangling inches away from some protective parent's five year old son in the bleachers at a school game. They get pissed, and guess what, their vote come election time counts just as much as mine or yours.
The beauty of concealed carry is that:
1) Eliminates the jerk factor
2) Allows for the element of surprise
3) Deters criminals as they never know which civilians are or are not armed
4) Doesn't create a scene or bother sensitive types, out of sight is out of mind.
There are too many jerks that love to demonstrate they have a weapon for sheer intimidation purposes (ever seen the Black Panthers in action?). In fact, while I have only met two people that open carry, they did seem very much like the jerk type that didn't just happen to open carry, but seemed to do so expressly so everyone knew to respect them and both had very adversarial attitudes IMO. *rolleyes*
It also makes some people uncomfortable, and while that is their problem, that does nothing to help gun advocacy to constantly throw it in their face with a big .454 Casul dangling inches away from some protective parent's five year old son in the bleachers at a school game. They get pissed, and guess what, their vote come election time counts just as much as mine or yours.
The beauty of concealed carry is that:
1) Eliminates the jerk factor
2) Allows for the element of surprise
3) Deters criminals as they never know which civilians are or are not armed
4) Doesn't create a scene or bother sensitive types, out of sight is out of mind.
PreMod70
Member
Skribs, your Mom can't be more right. What are you going to do when a tuff guy confronts you and tells you that he's going to take your gun away from you; dancing ain't an option buddy and using the gun ain't either but I bet you are thinking that you can, don't. It is obvious that you have the age but not the maturity to own a gun. Take the money for the gun and spend it on some S/D classes, you'll be safer, wiser and will add a few more years to your poor mothers life. When you old and a geezer like me you can thank me for the advice but I will be dead by then, hopefully you won't.
zfk55
Member
Ok, OP.....so I'm going to give you just a part of soemthing my Dad wrote quite a few years ago. I'll cut out all of the procedure and leave just the part that I think you really should read.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Requirements for a CC Permit by Sheriff Departments, City Police and States vary widely and wildly. Wildly because in some venues there seems to be little connection between self defence and a field hunting course to obtain a CC.
In the field, never carry a rifle with a chambered round. Always keep the muzzle down. Never crawl through a fence with your rifle. Congratulations. You passed.
Responsibility for being fully qualified to obtain a permit and carry a sidearm rests solely with you, the applicant. You are responsible for the depth and pertinence of the course, after all, the choice of a teaching methodolgy is something upon which you must decide. Its not only your right, but its more importanly your duty to seek the proper teacher and course methodlogy to ensure your own safety both in real life and in the courts should that be your misfortune. Selecting the right course is the first and probably most important step you'll take in your quest for a CC Permit.
There are many approaches to teaching self defence employing the use of a firearm, be it pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle. There are most certainly more than one good approach, but the end result should always be the same. A knowlegeable, competent and aware CC candidate, well schooled in every aspect of firearm and personal responsibility. You should most certainly interview your prospective teacher as if he/she were a job applicant. Interviewing a self defence instructor is by far more important than interviewing a salesman, waitress or a structural engineer. Upon that interview and acceptance of an instructor will potentially hang the rest of your life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cut out about 2/3rds of it here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
By this time we've already covered (with the applicant) why the applicant should avail him/herself of every opportunity to avoid the confrontation. Walking, talking, running away (if practicable), being constantly aware of surroundings, keeping clear of unusual secluded areas and late night individuals in low light, little trafficked areas and doing anything within reason to avoid drawing their firearm.
The applicant is urged to never discuss the firearm, show the firearm, make carrying obvious or the fact that they are indeed carrying. Not friends, not family (if applicable), not fellow workers, not even your Priest, Pastor or Rabbi. Nobody.
Its very important that the applicant learn to assume the weight of the firearm as natural, something not noticed, not consciously aware of the weight or the fact that its even there. Its equally importatnt to not be suspicious of every stranger, every situation of daily life, every sudden noise, every quick movement around you. The firearm should simply be another part of your body, not a conscious part but one to be called upon in the gravest extreme.
A successful applicant will not be constantly watching and waiting, expecting the worst. Carrying in itself typically makes the carrier more relaxed, more secure feeling, more responsible and far less likely to react violently or overreact.
Regular range time is strongly encouraged.
There are far more aspects to my course than can easily be presented here considering the typist has the will of a youngster and the fingers of an OldGuy. Push, step back, brace and draw etc. Many little and bigger things are presented in the course of the live classes. Bear in mind that this is not a Practical Pistol course but a base for self defense shooting. Other instructors may broaden the base of their courses and expand into related shooting excercises and events.
Its only important to remember that the final judge of the prospective course is you, the applicant. The responsibility for everything that occurs after the issuing of your CC with your firearm is your responsibilty, and yours alone. There will be no instructor to stand by your side in a courtroom testifying as to the validity of the shoot. No instructor should ever present scenarios to a student. Its not remotely possible to present them all and the student's first confromtation would most likely be something never considered. Don't dwell on "what if"s. Ayoob's books present rational confrontation responses. I can only answer what I might do, not what the candidate should do.
Choose your teacher carefully and remember that if something doesn't sound reasonable and rational, it probably isnt.
Shoot straight, think carefully as quickly as you can and..........
....stay low.
zfk55/sr
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Requirements for a CC Permit by Sheriff Departments, City Police and States vary widely and wildly. Wildly because in some venues there seems to be little connection between self defence and a field hunting course to obtain a CC.
In the field, never carry a rifle with a chambered round. Always keep the muzzle down. Never crawl through a fence with your rifle. Congratulations. You passed.
Responsibility for being fully qualified to obtain a permit and carry a sidearm rests solely with you, the applicant. You are responsible for the depth and pertinence of the course, after all, the choice of a teaching methodolgy is something upon which you must decide. Its not only your right, but its more importanly your duty to seek the proper teacher and course methodlogy to ensure your own safety both in real life and in the courts should that be your misfortune. Selecting the right course is the first and probably most important step you'll take in your quest for a CC Permit.
There are many approaches to teaching self defence employing the use of a firearm, be it pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle. There are most certainly more than one good approach, but the end result should always be the same. A knowlegeable, competent and aware CC candidate, well schooled in every aspect of firearm and personal responsibility. You should most certainly interview your prospective teacher as if he/she were a job applicant. Interviewing a self defence instructor is by far more important than interviewing a salesman, waitress or a structural engineer. Upon that interview and acceptance of an instructor will potentially hang the rest of your life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cut out about 2/3rds of it here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
By this time we've already covered (with the applicant) why the applicant should avail him/herself of every opportunity to avoid the confrontation. Walking, talking, running away (if practicable), being constantly aware of surroundings, keeping clear of unusual secluded areas and late night individuals in low light, little trafficked areas and doing anything within reason to avoid drawing their firearm.
The applicant is urged to never discuss the firearm, show the firearm, make carrying obvious or the fact that they are indeed carrying. Not friends, not family (if applicable), not fellow workers, not even your Priest, Pastor or Rabbi. Nobody.
Its very important that the applicant learn to assume the weight of the firearm as natural, something not noticed, not consciously aware of the weight or the fact that its even there. Its equally importatnt to not be suspicious of every stranger, every situation of daily life, every sudden noise, every quick movement around you. The firearm should simply be another part of your body, not a conscious part but one to be called upon in the gravest extreme.
A successful applicant will not be constantly watching and waiting, expecting the worst. Carrying in itself typically makes the carrier more relaxed, more secure feeling, more responsible and far less likely to react violently or overreact.
Regular range time is strongly encouraged.
There are far more aspects to my course than can easily be presented here considering the typist has the will of a youngster and the fingers of an OldGuy. Push, step back, brace and draw etc. Many little and bigger things are presented in the course of the live classes. Bear in mind that this is not a Practical Pistol course but a base for self defense shooting. Other instructors may broaden the base of their courses and expand into related shooting excercises and events.
Its only important to remember that the final judge of the prospective course is you, the applicant. The responsibility for everything that occurs after the issuing of your CC with your firearm is your responsibilty, and yours alone. There will be no instructor to stand by your side in a courtroom testifying as to the validity of the shoot. No instructor should ever present scenarios to a student. Its not remotely possible to present them all and the student's first confromtation would most likely be something never considered. Don't dwell on "what if"s. Ayoob's books present rational confrontation responses. I can only answer what I might do, not what the candidate should do.
Choose your teacher carefully and remember that if something doesn't sound reasonable and rational, it probably isnt.
Shoot straight, think carefully as quickly as you can and..........
....stay low.
zfk55/sr
Sam Cade
Member
...honestly now. That is pretty ridiculous.
I've OCed pretty much everyday for 10 years and have had maybe a dozen or so people notice.
SSN Vet
Member
CC vs. OC....
Pro's and cons either way. I live in a state that allows both, but chose to CC. Not surprised when I see someone OC every now and again, but I do take a second look.
While you live under her roof, abide by her wishes.
When you're on your own, tell her that you're and adult and need to make your own decisions.
Pro's and cons either way. I live in a state that allows both, but chose to CC. Not surprised when I see someone OC every now and again, but I do take a second look.
While you live under her roof, abide by her wishes.
When you're on your own, tell her that you're and adult and need to make your own decisions.
FIVETWOSEVEN
Member
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2009
- Messages
- 5,146
1. People will be jerks whether they have a gun open on their hip or not.
2. Element AFTER they have already started an attack that you will actually have to use it.
3. You look unarmed, criminals like unarmed targets, what determent exsists when you carry? That you may or may not be armed? Open carry shows that you are armed and they will just choose another target.
4. Most people don't notice, if they do then they just see you conducting whatever business with a gun. I've only open carried 3 times and each time I watched people, I've only seen two people notice and they didn't say anything or look scared. When I was waiting in line to check out, a kid walked about 2 feet away from me and was just above eye level with my gun and he didn't even look at it. People tend to avoid looking at other people.
PreMod70
Member
Post to Sam Cade;
Sorry partner, but most people are not surrounded by Amish but rather live were there are some pretty rough characters that will take a dare and back it up. I ask you if affronted by a tuffy what would be your course of action?
Sorry partner, but most people are not surrounded by Amish but rather live were there are some pretty rough characters that will take a dare and back it up. I ask you if affronted by a tuffy what would be your course of action?
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
My observation is that open carry requires a very high-level of situational awareness - not only in maintaining security and safety of the firearm; but also in observing how the presence of the firearm may be affecting your interactions with other people. Something as simple as "Excuse me" and pushing past someone on a sidewalk has a few more elements involved when open-carrying: Do they perceive me as a threat because of the gun? Can I secure the gun if someone tries to grab it?
Personally, I wouldn't want to open carry because I don't want to process the extra issues on top of the normal concerns for safety and security; but if you are going to do it; understand that you need to be even more aware of your surroundings.
Personally, I wouldn't want to open carry because I don't want to process the extra issues on top of the normal concerns for safety and security; but if you are going to do it; understand that you need to be even more aware of your surroundings.
Sam Cade
Member
I do most of my work in Louisville and Nashville. Not the nice parts usually.
That is a question whose answer entirely situational.
The correct response to a valid physical threat does not depend on whether or not I have my sport coat on.
1) Of course people can be jerks. Its in the context of the previous statement; jerks that use open carry as a way to be "the big man" and intimidate people intentionally. That is why I mentioned the Black Panthers, as I've seen these guys in person before and the only reason they are open carrying is to be intimidating and you can see it in their posture and mannerisms. You don't get that with good concealed carry.
2) Better than no element, and with concealed carry you have the option to show that you have a weapon or not. You can comply and just give your wallet and watch up if you and a group are held up at a convenience store. If it escalates further, then at some point you can make a decision to engage or not. With open carry, such an option does not exist. If you didn't have the element of surprise, you may now have also just lost a $500 weapon that has now entered the black market and will be sold to some other thug after scratching off the serial number.
3) The deterrent as I mentioned is for society at large. When the people that carry are all concealed carrying, as almost everyone does, the criminals do not know who is and is not armed. And if you were to jump into a convenience store with a shotgun and a mask on, and you see some guy in line with a big old black gun contrasted mightily against light jeans and a white shirt, who is the first person you are going after?
4) If you don't think that people notice when you're walking around with a gun... you really shouldn't be open carrying, as that demonstrates a keen lack of awareness of one's surroundings. Not only is it noticed, but some people even call the police, as the average soccer mom may not even realize that is legal and just slink off frightened dialing 911. In my case it would be "some white skinhead just barged in with a gun, please send help!" Even just walking down a busy street, chances are good that at some point an LEO is going to question you.
Legally, I can walk around with a t-shirt with something very offensive against Christianity written on it and give everyone I meet the finger, but that doesn't necessarily mean its a great idea, heh. Concealed carry is just more socially friendly IMO.
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J-Bar
Member
Thank you for posting this. You were fortunate to have such a father.
Navy, I just read the majority of that article you linked in your first post in this thread (got 75% through and then skimmed the rest), very good stuff.
I'm also a little confused as to why everyone says "you don't sound mature enough", when none of you even know me beyond the post that I've made here. I hardly believe that I have given you folks enough evidence of my maturity level for you to comment on it from the small amount of words I have posted on this site, let alone in this thread.
If you are concerned about my maturity, fine, but say what you think I need to work on, instead of "you sound immature, try again later." It could be that it's just the way I worded something or the fact that I chose a lighter tone in my writing.
I'm also a little confused as to why everyone says "you don't sound mature enough", when none of you even know me beyond the post that I've made here. I hardly believe that I have given you folks enough evidence of my maturity level for you to comment on it from the small amount of words I have posted on this site, let alone in this thread.
If you are concerned about my maturity, fine, but say what you think I need to work on, instead of "you sound immature, try again later." It could be that it's just the way I worded something or the fact that I chose a lighter tone in my writing.
zfk55
Member
I'm certainly not going to pass any judgement as concerns your maturity level, but the presented scenarios and wording of your opening post is the very reason those responses came along.
FIVETWOSEVEN
Member
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2009
- Messages
- 5,146
1. Black Panthers did it solely to intimidate Police officers, they didn't do it to further our cause and did it for the opposite.
2. The element of determent is better than suprise. Its better to keep something from happening then try to change something after something has gone wrong. Would you rather keep the pipe from leaking before it starts or stop it when it starts pouring water out?
3. Criminals like to case their victim before they strike, they would wait till they are gone first. One robbery of a waffle shop was cancelled when two people went in to case the place and two of the patrons were open carrying 1911s. These guys where with a larger group and most if not all were armed with rifles. They aren't looking to murder someone, they are looking for easy targets where they just get money. They aren't savages, they know that murder is a serious thing and would add a major charge if they were caught, plus they are cowards.
4. I study people, I watch them all the time. Pretty much 95% of people when you make eye contact with them, instantly look in a different direction. I pay great attention to the people around me and this is what happens. People tend to walk around like they have blinders on in their own little world. When I was a cart pusher at a super market, alot of times I had pushed a entire set of carts up to someone, within a foot, and they still didn't notice until I called "Ma'am", or "Sir" about 3 times. This is people, this is the way they are.
USAF_Vet
Member
I open carry because I don't have my concealed permit yet. But I live in rural Michigan where the sight of guns only upsets the FIPs (Freakin' Illinois People) who come to the lake in the summer. It's funny, because I live near Gun Lake and the irony is lost on the FIPs who gather there.
Once I get my CC, OC will generally be a thing of the past except for hunting season and camping trips. I OC because 1) I can and 2) it would be illegal to CC without a permit unless I'm on my property. I don't do it to draw attention to myself, despite the fact that it sometimes does just that.
Once I get my CC, OC will generally be a thing of the past except for hunting season and camping trips. I OC because 1) I can and 2) it would be illegal to CC without a permit unless I'm on my property. I don't do it to draw attention to myself, despite the fact that it sometimes does just that.
zfk55
Member
Let us know what you do and how it progresses. I'd like to know anyway.
Best of success.
Best of success.
PreMod70
Member
Care to expound, I don't understand.
Sam Cade
Member
You might find this interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacons_for_Defense_and_Justice
Same tactics but possibly less ideologically offensive to you.
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