Copper bullets: do I care?

[brewer12345]

I don't live in a state that requires them and I am not too worried about incidental lead exposure given that I am careful about trimming meat and do my own processing. Given all that, I am wondering if I am missing something obvious about the copper offerings I see on the market for a couple of cartridges I am fooling with, namely 6.5 Grendel and 350 Legend. In the Grendel my goal is a long range (300+ yards) deer cartridge that doesn't kick and will reliably bring down deer. The copper bullets all seem to have lower ballistic coefficients than the lead offerings (working with Hornady 123 grain SST) and they start to run out of gas right about where I need them to perform. In 350L things are less extreme. The new Barnes 170 grain TSX is the right weight and size, the BC is modestly lower than the lead offerings (170 grain Hornady interlocks), and it looks like to 150 or 175 yards everything will work. The only issue is that the Barnes offering is about a buck a bullet and there is scant load data.

Assuming you aren't afraid of lead bullets or required not to hunt with them, I guess I don't see the attraction. Am I missing something?

 

[n2omike]

300+ yards... doesn't kick... and reliably brings down deer. There's the crux of things.

The longer a bullet is, the better its ballistic coefficient. Long and skinny... High BC. Short and fat... Low BC.
Copper is less dense than lead, so the bullets must be longer in order to have the same weight. However, in order for the overall length to be in short enough, the longer bullets need to be seated deeper... so there's less powder capacity. Copper bullets cannot always use the same load data of lead bullets of the same weight... especially in more compact cases.

Kick is based off momentum. Momentum is directly proportional to mass and velocity. Double either, and momentum doubles.
Kinetic Energy varies with the square of velocity... It's why velocity matters more than mass when it comes to energy.

If you want a lot of energy downrange with little kick, you want to reduce bullet weight and increase velocity. Something around 6mm, or a .243 is in the sweet spot in energy vs. kick. With your calibers of choice, I'm assuming you are into the AR 15 platform? If you are HUNTING past 300 yards, I'd consider a bolt gun in .243 Winchester, or something similar. It also helps to use lead core BONDED bullets. Bullets of sufficient weight in copper are often too long to stabilize with production rifling twist weights... and higher 3100+ fps velocities often tear conventional bullets apart. But, if your shots are at 300+ yards, the bullet will be slow enough when it gets there.

Good Luck

 

[.308 Norma]

Assuming you aren't afraid of lead bullets or required not to hunt with them, I guess I don't see the attraction. Am I missing something?

Maybe one little thing - I have enough lead hunting bullets stashed away to last me the rest of my life and more. Of course, I'm 74 and doubt I'll be around long enough to see it if my state ever does ban lead bullets for hunting.

 

[brewer12345]

300+ yards... doesn't kick... and reliably brings down deer. There's the crux of things.

The longer a bullet is, the better its ballistic coefficient. Long and skinny... High BC. Short and fat... Low BC.
Copper is less dense than lead, so the bullets must be longer in order to have the same weight. However, in order for the overall length to be in short enough, the longer bullets need to be seated deeper... so there's less powder capacity. Copper bullets cannot always use the same load data of lead bullets of the same weight... especially in more compact cases.

Kick is based off momentum. Momentum is directly proportional to mass and velocity. Double either, and momentum doubles.
Kinetic Energy varies with the square of velocity... It's why velocity matters more than mass when it comes to energy.

If you want a lot of energy downrange with little kick, you want to reduce bullet weight and increase velocity. Something around 6mm, or a .243 is in the sweet spot in energy vs. kick. With your calibers of choice, I'm assuming you are into the AR 15 platform? If you are HUNTING past 300 yards, I'd consider a bolt gun in .243 Winchester, or something similar. It also helps to use lead core BONDED bullets. Bullets of sufficient weight in copper are often too long to stabilize with production rifling twist weights... and higher 3100+ fps velocities often tear conventional bullets apart. But, if your shots are at 300+ yards, the bullet will be slow enough when it gets there.

Good Luck

I picked 6.5 Grendel because it can do what I want and recoil is very modest. Went through a frozen shoulder and 6 months of physical therapy last year, so there are relatively few shots I want to be firing out of something like a 30-06 at the moment. The 6.5 properly loaded will do 350 to 400 yards on does where I will be hunting them, and that will suffice. With appropriate bullet construction, I don't anticipate problems cleanly taking deer at those ranges, at least with the high BC SST and its tendency to open up even at lower speeds.

 

[AJC1]

Copper bullets for the most part are velocity snobs. They perform best at very high velocity. Your case is optimized for platform not ultra high speeds. Recoil is the result of trying to go fast... unless it's required I don't believe monos are going to make you happy.

 

[n2omike]

Recoil is the result of trying to go fast...

Recoil has a LOT more to do with bullet mass/weight than speed. The action/reaction formula is based upon momentum... which is based on mass more than velocity. It's why a slow moving shotgun slug will kick a lot harder than a 22-250 or 220 swift.

It's why I recommended a .243 shooting 100 grain bullets really fast over something shooting heavier bullets more slowly. All the energy with less recoil. Of course a 6.5 Grendel is small enough to fit in an AR15, so there's less powder... but we're also talking 300+ yards.

He must already have the 6.5 Grendel... which is going to be pushed to its practical limit on game at 300+ yards.

 

[brewer12345]

Recoil has a LOT more to do with bullet mass/weight than speed. The action/reaction formula is based upon momentum... which is based on mass more than velocity. It's why a slow moving shotgun slug will kick a lot harder than a 22-250 or 220 swift.

It's why I recommended a .243 shooting 100 grain bullets really fast over something shooting heavier bullets more slowly. All the energy with less recoil. Of course a 6.5 Grendel is small enough to fit in an AR15, so there's less powder... but we're also talking 300+ yards.

He must already have the 6.5 Grendel... which is going to be pushed to its practical limit on game at 300+ yards.

Ballistic tables and many real world reports suggest otherwise, but I suppose I will find out soon enough. Always possible I will bump into deer closer, but 300+ is needed in case I can't get any closer.

 

[AJC1]

Recoil has a LOT more to do with bullet mass/weight than speed. The action/reaction formula is based upon momentum... which is based on mass more than velocity. It's why a slow moving shotgun slug will kick a lot harder than a 22-250 or 220 swift.

It's why I recommended a .243 shooting 100 grain bullets really fast over something shooting heavier bullets more slowly. All the energy with less recoil. Of course a 6.5 Grendel is small enough to fit in an AR15, so there's less powder... but we're also talking 300+ yards.

He must already have the 6.5 Grendel... which is going to be pushed to its practical limit on game at 300+ yards.

When your dealing with a fixed cartridge, 6.5 Grendel in this case more powder for more speed means more recoil. I have no idea how 22-250 applies and the op never said he was gun shopping or looking for a different cartridge.... a 257 Weatherby has a relatively lite bullet but powder volume and speed gives plenty recoil.

 

[AJC1]

Ballistic tables and many real world reports suggest otherwise, but I suppose I will find out soon enough. Always possible I will bump into deer closer, but 300+ is needed in case I can't get any closer.

Have you run the numbers on the eldx, it might be your huckleberry. It's supposed to have a very wide band for functional terminal velosity.

 

[n2omike]

Ballistic tables and many real world reports suggest otherwise, but I suppose I will find out soon enough. Always possible I will bump into deer closer, but 300+ is needed in case I can't get any closer.

At those distances, you're definitely going to need a range finder, as the bullet will be dropping fast. Will require a good skill set and technique for reliable, successful hits. Good Luck

 

[brewer12345]

When your dealing with a fixed cartridge, 6.5 Grendel in this case more powder for more speed means more recoil. I have no idea how 22-250 applies and the op never said he was gun shopping or looking for a different cartridge.... a 257 Weatherby has a relatively lite bullet but powder volume and speed gives plenty recoil.

In this case, I deliberately opted for a 20" stainless heavy barrel for my Grendel. With a scope and 5 rounds in the mag, the rifle tips the scale at a little over 10 pounds. Not only does it take several shots for the barrel to heat up, but the recoil from such a monster is pretty negligible. Not exactly a peach to carry, but at this point the trade off is worth it for me for the hunts I intend to do with this thing. Basically this is my deer/pronghorn rig for a property with little cover aside from some gullies and wide open spaces (we navigate back to the truck via "the tree" so named because it is about the only one). I know the property well enough that I can get where I need to be to head off the game in their usual travels and I am not going to be hiking endlessly with this thing.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

In this case, I deliberately opted for a 20" stainless heavy barrel for my Grendel. With a scope and 5 rounds in the mag, the rifle tips the scale at a little over 10 pounds. Not only does it take several shots for the barrel to heat up, but the recoil from such a monster is pretty negligible. Not exactly a peach to carry, but at this point the trade off is worth it for me for the hunts I intend to do with this thing. Basically this is my deer/pronghorn rig for a property with little cover aside from some gullies and wide open spaces (we navigate back to the truck via "the tree" so named because it is about the only one). I know the property well enough that I can get where I need to be to head off the game in their usual travels and I am not going to be hiking endlessly with this thing.

Yup, this here's wide open space in Florida. Can you guess which one is "the tree"?

Unless it's over fresh clear-cut, 100 yards is a long shot in the swamplands.

I've seen rigs like you're talking about but mostly for use on bipods and carried with chest slings to distribute the weight a little better. I don't know about copper solids, not my kind of thing, but I have observed how heat and humidity can change the game when it comes to long-distance shooting. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[.38 Special]

I think @AJC1 has it about right. Copper monolithics really shine in "fast and light" scenarios. In particular, the Weatherby cartridges which earned a reputation as erratic performers with cup-and-core bullets really put their best foot forward with something like the Barnes TSX. I wouldn't use the .257 Weatherby on much more than coyotes or maybe pronghorn with a light cup-and-core, but with a 100 grain TSX at 3600 FPS, I'd be confident about pointing it at just about anything in the lower 48.

For more traditional cartridges, though, I wouldn't bother if I didn't have to. Here in California, I have used copper monolithics in things like the .30-'06, and I'd say that at best, they don't take anything away from performance.

 

[brewer12345]

Yup, this here's wide open space in Florida. Can you guess which one is "the tree"?

Unless it's over fresh clear-cut, 100 yards is a long shot in the swamplands.

I've seen rigs like you're talking about but mostly for use on bipods and carried with chest slings to distribute the weight a little better. I don't know about copper solids, not my kind of thing, but I have observed how heat and humidity can change the game when it comes to long-distance shooting. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

I hunt a river bottom with a muzzleloader every year and you really lose nothing with an open sights round ball gun vs. a modern scoped rifle because I doubt I could find a place to take a shot over 100 yards. The last 3 deer I took there were at 50, 60, and 70 yards. The wide open space is a whole nother matter. humidity isn't an issue there, but wind can be. That is another reason to prefer a high BC bullet.

 

[gila_dog1]

One advantage of copper bullets is that they should hold together better and not come apart at high velocities. This means better penetration. On a big critter like an elk this is pretty important. For me the perfect hit on an elk is broadside in the chest, and the bullet should go all the way thru so a good blood trail is made. I've read that for a Barnes TSX bullet to open up properly it needs to be going at least 1800 fps. So out to 450 yds a 180 gr TSX from a 30-06 is still going about 1800 fps. Would they penetrate all the way thru an elk? I don't know. And I would never try a 450 yd shot at an elk. My max is about 200 yds.
I've not shot any elk with TSX bullets, but I have killed some using old fashioned 180 gr Hornady Interlock bullets. They killed the elk, but they blew up inside the chest cavity, and almost no blood trail was made. I was lucky to find those elk.

 

[horsemen61]

Look at the line of hammer bullets for the Grendel

 

[Kaldor]

I don't live in a state that requires them and I am not too worried about incidental lead exposure given that I am careful about trimming meat and do my own processing. Given all that, I am wondering if I am missing something obvious about the copper offerings I see on the market for a couple of cartridges I am fooling with, namely 6.5 Grendel and 350 Legend. In the Grendel my goal is a long range (300+ yards) deer cartridge that doesn't kick and will reliably bring down deer. The copper bullets all seem to have lower ballistic coefficients than the lead offerings (working with Hornady 123 grain SST) and they start to run out of gas right about where I need them to perform. In 350L things are less extreme. The new Barnes 170 grain TSX is the right weight and size, the BC is modestly lower than the lead offerings (170 grain Hornady interlocks), and it looks like to 150 or 175 yards everything will work. The only issue is that the Barnes offering is about a buck a bullet and there is scant load data.

Assuming you aren't afraid of lead bullets or required not to hunt with them, I guess I don't see the attraction. Am I missing something?

I dont feel the monolithic full copper bullets are worth it unless your state forces you to do it. As mentioned, they need velocity, but they load and have velocities like a bullet that is generally a little bit heavier. Example: 168ish coppers use 175ish load data in 308 and get the 175ish velocities. This is due to long bearing surface of the copper bullet. I also have never found them to be as accurate as a cup and core bullet either.
The Hornady 123 SST is an excellent bullet (part number 26173) that has proven to expand at 1500 fps and is about as heavy as you can go in a Grendel. Hornady predicts 1930fps with that 123 at 300 yards with an easy to obtain 2400fps muzzle velocity. That is more than enough for a deer.
Look at the 125 SST from a 300 Blackout, guys are making 150 yard shots on hogs all the time, and the hits are nasty. I used that bullet on Wisconsin deer (i.e. big deer) and have had no issues at 100 yards. I cant imagine the 6.5mm version would be that much different.
The ELD-M might get is done there as well, but Im always leery about a target bullet on game so your mileage may vary. I would assume Sierra/Berger/Nosler have an offering that would work as well.

 

[.45Coltguy]

Being in Ca., I was getting towards the end of "big game" hunting when Ca mandated lead free for all hunting. Still do for upland birds now and then, just really didn't care for the non lead bullets/loads. Still wish we could use lead here, but........ Now, it's just desert plinking when temps aren't too high.

 

[brewer12345]

I dont feel the monolithic full copper bullets are worth it unless your state forces you to do it. As mentioned, they need velocity, but they load and have velocities like a bullet that is generally a little bit heavier. Example: 168ish coppers use 175ish load data in 308 and get the 175ish velocities. This is due to long bearing surface of the copper bullet. I also have never found them to be as accurate as a cup and core bullet either.
The Hornady 123 SST is an excellent bullet (part number 26173) that has proven to expand at 1500 fps and is about as heavy as you can go in a Grendel. Hornady predicts 1930fps with that 123 at 300 yards with an easy to obtain 2400fps muzzle velocity. That is more than enough for a deer.
Look at the 125 SST from a 300 Blackout, guys are making 150 yard shots on hogs all the time, and the hits are nasty. I used that bullet on Wisconsin deer (i.e. big deer) and have had no issues at 100 yards. I cant imagine the 6.5mm version would be that much different.
The ELD-M might get is done there as well, but Im always leery about a target bullet on game so your mileage may vary. I would assume Sierra/Berger/Nosler have an offering that would work as well.

I am thinking about 125 grain partitions as another option. Harder/heavier bullet construction and should be able to get good velocity.

 

[Kaldor]

I am thinking about 125 grain partitions as another option. Harder/heavier bullet construction and should be able to get good velocity.

My only worry about the Partitions is that they built to be driven hard which with the moderate velocity of the Grendel might be an issue. We run them in a 257 Weatherby Magnum and they are fan-freaking-tastic.

 

[brewer12345]

My only worry about the Partitions is that they built to be driven hard which with the moderate velocity of the Grendel might be an issue. We run them in a 257 Weatherby Magnum and they are fan-freaking-tastic.

I use them in 30-06 and they are extremely effective.

 

[Bearded Phil]

The longer a bullet is, the better its ballistic coefficient. Long and skinny... High BC. Short and fat... Low BC.

This isn't strictly true. G1 BC has everything bearing on form factor (nose shape) and sectional density (weight in relation to diameter of projectile).

Bullets that are heavier typically end up being longer but the length of the body has nothing to do with the G1 BC.

 

[n2omike]

This isn't strictly true. G1 BC has everything bearing on form factor (nose shape) and sectional density (weight in relation to diameter of projectile).

Bullets that are heavier typically end up being longer but the length of the body has nothing to do with the G1 BC.

I said, The longer a bullet is, the better its ballistic coefficient. Long and skinny... High BC. Short and fat... Low BC.
This is a generalization. Once you make the generalization to get the point across, you can add the ifs and buts.
I was getting the point across...

On a fairly related note, the 6.5 Grendel is fairly low velocity, but there are lots of good bullets made to work with it. Zero need for a Nosler Partition, bonded bullet or solid copper bullet. These are designed to stay together at magnum velocities that tear standard bullets apart on impact. The challenge with the 6.5 Grendel is trying to hit the target at the intended 300+ yard range, as it will be dropping very quickly that far out. Will need to have a range finder and know how to dope the shot.

Good Luck

 

[brewer12345]

I said, The longer a bullet is, the better its ballistic coefficient. Long and skinny... High BC. Short and fat... Low BC.
This is a generalization. Once you make the generalization to get the point across, you can add the ifs and buts.
I was getting the point across...

On a fairly related note, the 6.5 Grendel is fairly low velocity, but there are lots of good bullets made to work with it. Zero need for a Nosler Partition, bonded bullet or solid copper bullet. These are designed to stay together at magnum velocities that tear standard bullets apart on impact. The challenge with the 6.5 Grendel is trying to hit the target at the intended 300+ yard range, as it will be dropping very quickly that far out. Will need to have a range finder and know how to dope the shot.

Good Luck

Drop is less than I would have guessed. Factory ammo chronod just over 2500 and the riffle is zeroed at 200. High bc bullets shoot flat surprisingly far. This is an ambush hunt, so I will be set up with shooting sticks, a rangefinder and a drop table.

 

[AJC1]

I dont feel the monolithic full copper bullets are worth it unless your state forces you to do it. As mentioned, they need velocity, but they load and have velocities like a bullet that is generally a little bit heavier. Example: 168ish coppers use 175ish load data in 308 and get the 175ish velocities. This is due to long bearing surface of the copper bullet. I also have never found them to be as accurate as a cup and core bullet either.
The Hornady 123 SST is an excellent bullet (part number 26173) that has proven to expand at 1500 fps and is about as heavy as you can go in a Grendel. Hornady predicts 1930fps with that 123 at 300 yards with an easy to obtain 2400fps muzzle velocity. That is more than enough for a deer.
Look at the 125 SST from a 300 Blackout, guys are making 150 yard shots on hogs all the time, and the hits are nasty. I used that bullet on Wisconsin deer (i.e. big deer) and have had no issues at 100 yards. I cant imagine the 6.5mm version would be that much different.
The ELD-M might get is done there as well, but Im always leery about a target bullet on game so your mileage may vary. I would assume Sierra/Berger/Nosler have an offering that would work as well.

Eldx is the hunting version and would be more appropriate imo. I would also give the tsgk a try. I really like the accuracy of both of those bullets and the standard game king is no slough either. I shoot them in 30 caliber and we're loaded by the pile for shooting in 30-06 during military bolt matches with my dad. He admitted the smk was probably more accurate but in an old war horse not worth the additional money.