cultural carry

[roscoe]

In the post-reconstruction South, the concealed carry laws were pretty much only applied to black folks. That was the case up until the 1960s. The 14th Amendment definitely was written with an eye towards giving freed slaves all the rights of the Bill of Rights, and the 2nd was essentially incorporated as an individual right at that point. It just took folks a while to decide to test the courts. So I would say that plenty of people were carrying the whole time, and the laws were only selectively applied, as in Waton v. Stone, a 1941 Florida Supreme Court decision: "“The Act was passed for the purpose of disarming negro laborers. … [It] was never intended to be applied to the white population and in practice has never been so applied" (Concurring opinion by Justice Buford).

In the decision they estimate 80% of white Florida males were concealing handguns at least some of the time. There was definitely a market there. But I bet it was mostly cheap .32 revovers by Iver Johnson. Guns were expensive back then!

 

[kBob]

Thank you Rosco for the cite.

I will say and have said that in the late 50's and early 60's many of the 50 and up white men I knew carried a small handgun. Usually a top break in .32 or .38. Black men I knew seemed content with knives, including two that carried linoleum knives supposedly to be able to say it was work related. My Grandfather sort of carried in that he had a .32 Colt revolver he took to work at his service station and home in a cigar box that was his "money box" On occasion he would stuff it in a pocket or his belt. It was confiscated during a riot in about '68 after his car was attacked and someone entered the occupied car with evil intent, speaking ugly and demanding the cash box. Grandddaddy was in sight of police and when they saw the one guy exit the car in a hurry and herd cries of "He got a gun!" they dashed over and took away Grandaddy's revolver. Why they could not have rushed over when the car was blocked and several folks began trying to pull Granddaddy out the open driver's window I do not know. About two weeks later the department offered him a cheap top break in .32 claiming the only info they had said they had taken a .32. He never got his Colt back.

-kBob

 

[Varminterror]

One can simply look at the passages of Laws in the last 15-20yrs regarding concealed carry permitting, castle doctrine, stand your ground, criminal and civil liability absolution, state reciprocity, “constitutional” carry, universal preemption, etc to get an idea of how far we have come as a Nation during those decades. Without question, it’s better for law-abiding, firearm carrying citizens today than it was 25+ years ago in the vast majority of states. Even in anti-gun states, there have been some Federal victories, such as the ability to cross Illinois without unloading and locking up our pistols.

Despite this favorable tide, we cannot, however, let the chain fall slack and rest on our laurels in a good time, lest we lose what we have gained.

 

[roscoe]

Thank you Rosco for the cite.

I will say and have said that in the late 50's and early 60's many of the 50 and up white men I knew carried a small handgun. Usually a top break in .32 or .38. Black men I knew seemed content with knives, including two that carried linoleum knives supposedly to be able to say it was work related. My Grandfather sort of carried in that he had a .32 Colt revolver he took to work at his service station and home in a cigar box that was his "money box" On occasion he would stuff it in a pocket or his belt. It was confiscated during a riot in about '68 after his car was attacked and someone entered the occupied car with evil intent, speaking ugly and demanding the cash box. Grandddaddy was in sight of police and when they saw the one guy exit the car in a hurry and herd cries of "He got a gun!" they dashed over and took away Grandaddy's revolver. Why they could not have rushed over when the car was blocked and several folks began trying to pull Granddaddy out the open driver's window I do not know. About two weeks later the department offered him a cheap top break in .32 claiming the only info they had said they had taken a .32. He never got his Colt back.

-kBob

Unfortunately you can be fairly sure where that Colt ended up.

 

[Jim NE]

Do you think unrestricted carry was popular and widespread throughout the 20th century compared to today?

Depends on what region of the US, I suppose, but around here, definitely not. And I live in a so called "red state" that has been so for generations. I was born in the late 1950's, and respectable middle class/working class people in these parts rarely, if ever, carried back then, as far as I know. I remember in the 1970's my cousin and her husband from Chicago came to visit, and (according to my dad), a .38 revolver accidentally fell out of my cousin's husband's coat. My parents were horrified that he was carrying a concealed handgun, even though my dad was a gun owner (enthusiast, even.) The problem was that my parents couldn't understand or relate to what living and surviving in some parts of Chicago - or any other big city - was like. It wasn't until the violent crime rate started going up drastically in their own moderate sized city (and even immediate neighborhood) that they started to realize what was going on.

I personally don't believe that the concealed-carry movement that swept the country 20-30 years ago was motivated by the second amendment specifically among the general public, although the principal was certainly embedded in there somewhere. In other words, I don't think most Americans were as constitutionally minded as the NRA or other gun advocacy groups. I believe the movement was a result of a drastic rise in crime in major cities, as well as what you might call a "culture of lawlessness" among inner city gangs that were responsible for a significant amount of that crime. (As I recall, it was Miami where the CCW stuff started, and Miami was like the most violent place in the US back in the '80's.) Eventually, that sort of crime started spreading to a whole lot of other places (like where my parents lived), and most states and municipalities had to acknowledge the inability of state and local police departments to keep people safe.

So, like others who have posted on this thread, I was against CCW legislation at first because it wasn't part of my cultural experience; I didn't grow up that way, even as a conservative. But then, over the span of several years, three acquaintances of mine - and one neighbor who I never got to meet - were all murdered in separate instances by strangers who had no history with them. No "drug deals gone bad" or "domestic disputes"...these people were all just out in public minding their own business. One was a gang murder. Another may have been. This was all in my midwestern conservative state. That's when I started entertaining the notion that the Second Amendment also includes protecting one's self in public. If you can use guns to defend against a tyrannical power or government, as the Second implies, then why can't you use guns to defend yourself against tyrannical individuals? Makes perfect sense, and the legal scholars and judge's concur, thankfully, thanks to the NRA and other groups.

Do you think that explicit permitting of carry has increased its practice?

Around here, definitely yes. Even more so in nearby states.

 

[bluzman]

I personally don't believe that the concealed-carry movement that swept the country 20-30 years ago was motivated by the second amendment specifically among the general public, although the principal was certainly embedded in there somewhere. In other words, I don't think most Americans were as constitutionally minded as the NRA or other gun advocacy groups. I believe the movement was a result of a drastic rise in crime in major cities, as well as what you might call a "culture of lawlessness" among inner city gangs that were responsible for a significant amount of that crime. Eventually, that sort of crime started spreading to a whole lot of other places (like where my parents lived), and most states and municipalities had to acknowledge the inability of state and local police departments to keep people safe.

Jim NE, I certainly agree with the point you've made with this comment. Unfortunately, the reasons, groups, and locales you cite as causes for an increased number of people to carry concealed continue to spiral upward.

 

[Random 8]

I think a culture of carry is somewhat regional. Growing up in rural MN in the 80's, it was rare for somebody to admit that they were carrying, but if you walked out behind the barn where the old men were smoking cigarettes and sipping a whiskey where the wives couldn't see, comparing a .38, M1911, the occasional Hi-Power or automatic from the 20's or 30's was standard practice. I got to shoot a lot of cool old pistols at my uncles barbecues. These typically weren't carried on the person, but usually could be found in a glovebox, ready to be tucked in a coat pocket while walking in a shady neighborhood or carrying a few thousand cash from the bank to the tractor dealer. I think this practice dates to the 20's and 30's when this area was quite lawless. It was a hideout for bootleggers from the big city, and saw many armed robberies of local banks in the 20's and 30's, with the local folks being mobilized on short notice into a very effective posse. A shootout actually occurred just north of my uncles farm in the 20's where two robbers made the mistake of shooting it out with a posse armed with surplus Krag rifles from the local NG armoury and personal hunting rifles. The posse members were still shown in a picture standing over the bodies of the robbers like they were trophy deer until the picture was taken down by the historical society (understandably) as being unseemly. Grandma carried an archaic rimfire .32? in her purse even in the 1980s still. Although both glovebox and purse carry were illegal, I never heard of these laws being enforced in the area, although my uncle would always drop his .45 into a pistol rug before traveling on interstate highways.

 

[roscoe]

I personally don't believe that the concealed-carry movement that swept the country 20-30 years ago was motivated by the second amendment specifically among the general public, although the principal was certainly embedded in there somewhere. In other words, I don't think most Americans were as constitutionally minded as the NRA or other gun advocacy groups. I believe the movement was a result of a drastic rise in crime in major cities, as well as what you might call a "culture of lawlessness" among inner city gangs that were responsible for a significant amount of that crime. (As I recall, it was Miami where the CCW stuff started, and Miami was like the most violent place in the US back in the '80's.) Eventually, that sort of crime started spreading to a whole lot of other places (like where my parents lived), and most states and municipalities had to acknowledge the inability of state and local police departments to keep people safe.

So, like others who have posted on this thread, I was against CCW legislation at first because it wasn't part of my cultural experience; I didn't grow up that way, even as a conservative. But then, over the span of several years, three acquaintances of mine - and one neighbor who I never got to meet - were all murdered in separate instances by strangers who had no history with them. No "drug deals gone bad" or "domestic disputes"...these people were all just out in public minding their own business. One was a gang murder. Another may have been. This was all in my midwestern conservative state. That's when I started entertaining the notion that the Second Amendment also includes protecting one's self in public. If you can use guns to defend against a tyrannical power or government, as the Second implies, then why can't you use guns to defend yourself against tyrannical individuals? Makes perfect sense, and the legal scholars and judge's concur, thankfully, thanks to the NRA and other groups.



Around here, definitely yes. Even more so in nearby states.

I agree - most people are not too worried about overthrowing their government. They just want to get home from work across town safely or be able to prevent prowlers from having free reign. I suspect that the 1970s and 1980s were a wake-up call. Gun control had been increasing fairly unimpeded across the country up until then. But when your city is near bankruptcy and the police are on strike, you suddenly realize that you are on your own. I grew up in a big liberal East Coast city and, as violent as it was, the idea of a legally concealed fiream never even occurred to anybody. You took your chances either way - the chance of a violent mugging (which happened to us several times) or the chance of arrest for a weapon (my parents never would). It is hard to communicate to younger folks just how anarchic the late 1960s and 70s were - it really was a breakdown of society in many parts of the country, and it showed people that the Eisenhower years may have been an aberration.

For me, it took moving to the Southwest to realize that I had been looking at the relationship between the citizens and the government all wrong. I am not always the biggest fan of the latest moves by the NRA (Dana Loesch videos turn my stomach), but I will be forever thankful for their work the trend towards acceptance of civilian CCW. (But they need to stop preaching to the choir and recruit other folks to our side if we want to keep these rights for the next 100 years.) Nowadays I have a CCW permit from several states, and I have turned virtually every member of my family into a group of gun-toting CCW-supporting liberals. Now we all go shooting all the time and arguments are no longer about the politics of gun ownership, but about why Glocks are plastic , ugly, hard-shooting bricks.

 

[jar]

Grew up in the 40s and 50s and the idea of people carrying a gun was simply moot. It was quite common, even in pretty urban areas (read Big City) to find hand guns and rifles in most all my friends houses. Outside the city the shotgun by the back door was also near ubiquitous. Handgun carry was not common but also not so unusual that anyone would comment about it.

BUT, the rifle in the unlocked empty pickup parked with the windows rolled down was the norm.

 

[somethingbenign]

I don't have quite the history as most on here. What I do know is that when my mom first found out I carried she was less than enthusiastic. Upon hearing about the required class and qualifer she became much more receptive. Without any state requirements I have the feeling I'd be getting phone calls daily trying to talk me out of carrying. State requirements seem like a necessary evil right now with convincing the general public guns aren't just being given out to anyone. I also live in a shall issue state so I'm comfortable with how things are here, would like to see the fees lowered or waived entirely though.

As far as advancements go, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw even more radical projectile development. Watched a video of 32 ACP buffalo bore with Lehigh bullets in gel. Really impressive results and the demand for smaller and lighter is not going away. Just look at how the perception of 9mm has changed in the past few decades.

 

[Coyote3855]

One anecdote does not make a trend, but I'll tell this anyway. My Dad was a rancher in eastern Colorado until a few years before he passed away in 2007 at age 92. He was seldom out of reach of a Colt Woodsman and there was usually a long rifle of some sort in his vehicle. When I was a teenager, we stopped late at night to help a car load of folks with a flat tire and no jack. He handed me the Woodsman and said "Just in case..." when he got out to retrieve our jack and change the tire for them.

 

[Rock185]

Before all these states passed "Shall issue" legislation, concealed carry did not appear to be at all common to me, even out here in the "Wild West". In fact, I didn't know anybody who concealed carried in Arizona in the 50s-60s other than police detectives, and of course criminals, as reported in the news. Long as I can remember, I've been interested in firearms, and would have certainly have noticed if anybody I knew of carried a gun. Plenty of rifles and shotguns in Easy Rider rifle racks in pickup trucks, but I wasn't aware of people CCing handguns. If anyone within my extended family, or friends carried, they must have been very discreet about it. I definitely think shall issue CC legislation has increased concealed carry significantly, And, as an unintended consequence of Clinton's 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, many appropriate CC pistols of 10-rounds or less capacity were already in production when states started passing shall issue legislation. FWIW, no permit is required for adults who are not prohibited possessors to CC here in Arizona. I can't see that anything has yet changed in public perception, media, legislation,etc. since "Constitutional carry" became legal a few years ago.....

 

[armoredman]

I am born and raised in Arizona, and since AZ has had open unrestricted carry for over 100 years, it has always been normal. It's the visitors who freak out. Concealed was restricted to LEO for decades, but the letter of the law, "wholly or partially visible, weapon or holster", left a lot of wiggle room. When we got our first CCW permit in 1992 I was at the front of the line, and when we went Constitutional Carry in 2010 I was ecstatic. I understand correlation does not equal causation, but four years running after Constitutional Carry was introduced in AZ, the murders went down according to the UCR. I am a big supporter of CC, and believe that's the way it should be, as a right is a RIGHT, not a carefully graded privilege. Again, that is from growing up out here in the not so Wild West. Also check many of the gun makers ads for the last 100 years and you will see MANY ads for defensive pistols aimed at civilians, and designs specifically for them.

 

[JohnKSa]

Depends on the time period. Prior to the First World War, concealed carry wasn’t regulated...

Gun control, including the regulation of carry, especially in the south, really gained momentum after the Civil War. From what I can tell, it was selectively enforced to prevent the freed black population from carrying.

IMO, it was the fact that selective enforcement eventually became unworkable that led to the passage of shall-issue concealed carry laws.

Growing up in the 50's and 60's, in Texas, concealed carrying was a rare thing. I was somewhat plugged into the gun scene, and I personally didn't know anyone who carried.

That's because from the middle 1870s until 1995, there was no practical way to legally carry in TX. There were some precedents that made carrying legal in certain limited circumstances, but in general those would only help you after you had already been dragged into court. I'm not saying that people didn't carry before the CHL bill passed--but if they did and they were smart, they didn't talk about it.

 

[chicharrones]

That's because from the middle 1870s until 1995, there was no practical way to legally carry in TX. There were some precedents that made carrying legal in certain limited circumstances, but in general those would only help you after you had already been dragged into court. I'm not saying that people didn't carry before the CHL bill passed--but if they did and they were smart, they didn't talk about it.

Exactly. People didn't talk about it.

Usually stories I heard came from someone's relatives after their grandfather or father had passed away. That's about the only time I ever heard anyone talk about it to a small group of people. While the grandfather or father was alive, no one talked and probably because they didn't know.

Another scenario I knew of would be the "If I'm in an accident, and you're near me, would you take care of this?" comment to a highly trusted person.

 

[Sistema1927]

Before all these states passed "Shall issue" legislation, concealed carry did not appear to be at all common to me, even out here in the "Wild West".

"Did not appear" since most were like me, and making sure that no other individual knew we were carrying. It was against the law in many places, and even though there was a very high likelihood that otherwise law abiding citizens wouldn't be charged, even for a justifiable shoot, there was no need to advertise.

 

[roscoe]

I must say that I am always surprised that more Federal courts have not been pursuaded with the inherent potential for political cronyism, corruption, and racial/cultural/whatever bias in 'may issue'.

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

...I personally don't believe that the concealed-carry movement that swept the country 20-30 years ago was motivated by the second amendment specifically among the general public, although the principal was certainly embedded in there somewhere. In other words, I don't think most Americans were as constitutionally minded as the NRA or other gun advocacy groups. I believe the movement was a result of a drastic rise in crime in major cities, as well as what you might call a "culture of lawlessness" among inner city gangs that were responsible for a significant amount of that crime. (As I recall, it was Miami where the CCW stuff started, and Miami was like the most violent place in the US back in the '80's.) Eventually, that sort of crime started spreading to a whole lot of other places (like where my parents lived), and most states and municipalities had to acknowledge the inability of state and local police departments to keep people safe...

JIM NE beat me to the point regarding a “culture of lawlessness”, but I don’t believe it was “most states and municipalities had to acknowledge the inability of state and local police departments to keep people safe.” I believe it was simply the “average citizen” who finally acknowledged this fact and demanded the means to protect themselves...nationally starting in Florida.

I think someone n here has a signature line something like “When help is needed in seconds, the police are only minutes away.”

Sam

 

[kBob]

Before Marion Hammer pushed Concealed carry in Florida each county Sheriff had the ability to grant permits to Carry concealed and could charge up to $500 per year to do so. No set training standards, no set back ground check, no nothing but what ever the sheriff decided. Some cities and counties took it upon them selves to add various forms of gun control such as three day waits and some did not. It was passible to live across the road from another Floridian in another county that while you had a three day wait on a handgun purchase and basically absolutely no chance at legal CC your neighbor that grew up playing football with the Sheriff of his countiy' son had no wait and carried when he darn well pleased. With no standards for issue the Sheriff got to decide if he liked your skin color, hair style or political affiliation if he wanted to in deciding who legally carried.

Meanwhile Florida law allowed glove box carry in cars and in 1979 the Highway Patrol estimated as many as one in three cars and light trucks with Florida plates had a gun in the glove box. That is a lot more than the number of CWL permits even today. Road rage incidents were basically un heard of.

This came out during the debates on CWL and then the CWL numbers were well publisized. After the first year of CWL there were more "private citizens" with CWL than the total number of sworn law enforcement at local state or federal levels in Florida.

Bad folks took notice of all this and attacks on folks in rental cars(likely to be un armed) got so high the state changed to rental car tags to make them less identifable by thugs.



-kBob

 

[GEM]

They especially like to target the European tourists who were assumed to be naive and pliable when confronted. Specific flights feeding into the rental fires were noted and targeted.

 

[Lyle Wyatt]

I grew up in central California in the 60s and 70s. My dad, my uncles and most all of the other men I knew, almost all of them WW2 Vets, carried guns. Usually a 2" .38 or a .25 auto.

 

[NMPOPS]

Very true. A couple of years prior to CCW being introduced in NM a man in my neighborhood was accosted while jogging. He pulled out his concealed pistol and shot his attacker dead. Since it was a justified shooting he did not face any charges for illegally carrying a weapon.

That is the same way that it was in my youth in West Texas and all throughout this part of the country.

Don't forget, in Nm carrying a concealed,LOADED, handgun was merely a Petty Misdemeanor, and often the gun wasn't taken into evidence. Also in NM a Petty Misdemeanor must be witnessed by the police to be enforced.

 

[Speedo66]

Growing up in NYC, no regular citizen carried a gun. Cops and criminals plus a few VIPs and retired cops. I became a LEO in the city in 1969, if I saw a gun printing, I gave a quick evaluation. If the person didn’t appear to be of age to be a cop, older or younger, I demanded ID.

Not much has changed there, a tiny fraction of one percent have civilian unrestricted carry permits, about 4,000 in a city of 9 million. People like Trump pre-election, Di Nero, etc. still got theirs. Several big name liberal actors who don’t want you to have one.

Counties outside the city become more liberal with permits the farther away from the city you go. But those permits are no good in NYC. Whole different mind set re: guns and hunting upstate.

 

[Sistema1927]

Growing up in NYC, no regular citizen carried a gun

Thankfully, "New York Values" were limited mainly to New York. Most of the rest of the nation enjoyed the freedom of knowing that every police officer wasn't looking at them as a potential bust.

 

[Jim Watson]

Alabama used to be May Issue, permits issued by the county, valid statewide.
Jefferson county/Birmingham was very easy to deal with, I got a permit the first time I was home from college after my 21st birthday.
Gunwriter Jan Stevenson said that his sheriff was free with permits on the basis that anybody willing to ask permission to carry a gun was not going to abuse it, but the neighboring county gave out hardly any.

My Dad drove a city bus through a period of bus and taxi holdups. He, like many drivers, carried a pistol (also blackjack and knucks) to defend himself and his changebox. But it still got to the point that the sheriff made a public announcement warning the yeggs that many drivers were already armed and if holdups did not cease, he would deputize and arm ALL of them. Things calmed down considerably, robberies fell way off. The transit company later went to exact fares into the locked fareboxes, no loose change at all on a bus.