cultural carry

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labnoti

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For a lot of us, the idea of "keep and bear arms" is inextricably associated with the carry of handguns. For us, there's probably no greater expression of this right than to keep a handgun and carry it on our person practically at all times and in all places.

Although I lived longer in the 20th century than I have in this one, I don't have a perfect recollection of everything about that century and since a good portion of it consisted of my childhood, I wasn't particularly concerned with this issue throughout my time in it. My sensibilities which are liberal in the true sense of liberality with respect to liberty and individual freedoms cause me to want to believe that a great portion of my fellow Americans indulged routinely in this freedom of ours. On the other hand, there's disturbing evidence that carry was irregular, relegated to certain isolated places and elsewhere stigmatic. One of the evidences of this in the manufacture and marketing of handguns throughout the 20th century. Colt and Smith & Wesson made "cop" guns, but what gun was marketing to private citizens and residents that wasn't a "hunting" gun or a competition pistol? Of course we cannot deny the generous portion of the market for "Saturday night specials," but wasn't that just the sort of unseemliness that carried with it a social stigma? There seems to be scant evidence the manufacturers were making an effort to address a demand to arm a big portion of the citizenry with firearms for concealed carry. Or were they doing this with all the Colt Troopers and Model 19's they were making for cops and citizens alike? Why does it seem virtually all the design influence was cop-influence or from the Army?

I'm not asserting that carry was only an obscure practice that should be disregarded with respect to any justification of present proposals for things like "constitutional carry," but it might seem as if more recent efforts to "permit" and "license" carry has served more to legitimize and promote concealed carry than it has encumbered a previously free practice.

Regardless of whether more people carried when licensing was unusual or fewer, the people that did carry were "invisible." With "constitutional carry" there's no record of people's application for permission to carry, so absent a clearly visible demand for guns to be used in this practice, it might go unnoticed to the point where the necessity of it is doubted. In contrast, where "permitting" is required, far more people apply for permits than those who actually carry. This would seem to have the effect of magnifying the practice, further legitimizing it, and maintaining clear visibility to the demand for it.

There is even evidence of an increase in demand for concealed carry guns as a result of permitting. The wikipedia page for the Ruger SR series claims, "Starting in the early 2000s, the rapid growth of legislation and regulations allowing concealed carry by law-abiding citizens in various jurisdictions created a large market for handguns manufactured specifically for such use," and suggests the SR series product was marketed to meet such demand. I don't think the Ruger is the only gun brought to market to meet this demand, but the sales leadership of the LCP is probably ample evidence that there's a substantial market for guns other than those models like the Glock, Sig, and M&P that could be sustained by military and law enforcement sales alone.

I certainly hope that my own state and all states soon recognize "constitutional carry," but I also hope that firearms manufacturers respond to what is almost certainly an increasing demand for carry guns for more and more people finding this is a responsibility they need to take for themselves, and that those people don't continue to be left only with product options originally designed and traditionally intended for law enforcement. On the other hand, I only have limited hope for as long as we're stuck with serialized production of a limited number of finite products in a regulated market.

Do you think unrestricted carry was popular and widespread throughout the 20th century compared to today?

Do you think that explicit permitting of carry has increased its practice?

What can be done to preserve the awareness of the need for carry if it goes "invisible," without the need for license and permit?

What influences do you see on growing demand for citizen-carried handguns on firearm's design?
 
I’m not sure how old you are, but I was born in the mid 60s so the late 20th Century is when I went to HS and college and grew up.

I remember the stigma of those who carried. I was fearful of guns but always supported the Second Amendment. I do remember though when Oliver North became the first person in Fairfax Va to get a conceal carry permit. Being near DC his role in Inran/Contra made him despised by many and he was a target hence his justification for carrying.

At the time I remember the same rhetoric from the antis. Crime will rise, it’ll be the Old West. Blood will pour in the streets. Instead what we saw was those things were true in DC who outlawed all guns except for police and the chosen few. In Va our crime actually dropped (until Northern Va became like Maryland and DC but that’s a separate tangent)

My views have obviously evolved and I’m not afraid of guns. I simply have a healthy respect for their power and what they can do. I also have become a very outspoken 2nd Amendment supporter. Having almost died in a gun free classroom I want anyone with a conceal carry permit to be able to carry at a school or college.

Sadly our enemies lie, they spread false info and they play on emotion. To me it’s a shame we don’t get more involved and find ways to show the good that relaxed conceal carry laws and more truly sane gun laws have. Not the “sane” ones the antis want which aren’t sane or effective.
 
Depends on the time period. Prior to the First World War, concealed carry wasn’t regulated...and there were quite a few guns like the Colt 1903 designed for it. This shifted in the ‘20s and ‘30s, but after the Second World War things went hard against concealed carry. Not only were there laws, there were cops who would zealously enforce them.

Matters changed in our favor in the late 1980s. Florida went shall-issue after research showed permits went to those who were connected politically, not those who had the most need. Once that proved shall-issue worked, things changed.
 
When I attended my 1st CCW class the instructor introduced himself and then said "I have been carrying, legally and illegally, for XX years." Most of us nodded knowingly in agreement with him.

I turned 21 in 1977, and except for the time I served in uniform I have carried consistently. Some of these were pretty sketchy weapons, and chosen for deep concealment, but I was armed. I also knew that many of my otherwise law abiding associates were also carrying.
 
Manufacturers like Smith & Wesson and Colt were definitely making small guns for concealed carry. There were Detective Special and J frames being made as well as short barreled K frames .in the 80s and 90s, S&W made the CS9 , CS40 & CS45 which were Shield sized guns more or less
 
Depends on the time period. Prior to the First World War, concealed carry wasn’t regulated...

Maybe not on a basis of State law, but certainly it was. The gunfight at the OK Corral (or rather on Fremont Street) was initiated on the premise that the Cowboys were violating Tombstone's anti-carry law.
 
For us, there's probably no greater expression of this right than to keep a handgun and carry it on our person practically at all times and in all places.
I don't think the litmus test for gun rights is carrying concealed "practically at all times and in all places." Concealed carriers are just one subset of the gun world, and those that carry routinely all the time are even fewer.
Do you think unrestricted carry was popular and widespread throughout the 20th century compared to today?
Growing up in the 50's and 60's, in Texas, concealed carrying was a rare thing. I was somewhat plugged into the gun scene, and I personally didn't know anyone who carried.
Do you think that explicit permitting of carry has increased its practice?
No doubt about it. The "shall issue" movement was the watershed.
What can be done to preserve the awareness of the need for carry if it goes "invisible," without the need for license and permit?
I personally, as a 73-year-old retiree, don't feel the need to carry. It has to do with lifestyle. I'm happy that in Virginia, a concealed-carry permit is easy to get (and open carry is legal without a permit), should the need arise. "Constitutional carry" would be preferable, but that doesn't mean I would necessarily take advantage of it.
 
Florida's landmark state-controlled pre-emption of all gun laws within the state, coupled with a "shall-issue" stance, opened a lot of eyes. I, too, remember the news reporters and all their hand-wringing as they lamented the upcoming "streets running red, awash in the blood of the innocents as pistol-packin' folks shoot it out Old-Western style over everything from girls to parking spaces." This was in the year 1987, the year I was sworn in onto "the job." I had a badge, so I didn't go for the carry license back then.

Prior to the law's passing, gun rights were regulated by each of the state's 67 counties, by the sheriff (or other lead LE authority) or the county commission in each. Some had some provision for carry, whether or not they required a permit, while others did not. Those counties that issued licenses or otherwise permitted going armed had no authority to have those permissions be valid in any other county (though some counties may have honored those permissions granted by others.)

I never knew anyone lawfully permitted to carry before the law went into effect. My county was Palm Beach, even then governed by a heavily-liberal commission (one of its members was a landlady of mine for a little while.) Their "may-issue" stance was very closely guarded and extended to few beyond themselves.

The predicted carnage, of course, never materialized, and I don't think I knew a cop on the streets that had a problem with the new law set, or with a private citizen exercising their rights within its limits (maybe even beyond if they were otherwise law-abiding.) Many studies of the "clean" lifestyle of license-holders have been conducted using Florida's armed population as an example because of the duration of the law set, and the significant population of the state.
 
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Do you think unrestricted carry was popular and widespread throughout the 20th century compared to today?

No. History has proven it wasn't.

Do you think that explicit permitting of carry has increased its practice?

Obviously, though not as high as some wish, nor as high as some fear.

What can be done to preserve the awareness of the need for carry if it goes "invisible," without the need for license and permit?

Does this awkwardly worded sentence mean "if constitutional carry should pass"? Don't worry, it won't, nor should it.

What influences do you see on growing demand for citizen-carried handguns on firearm's design?

Well, obviously, the market for .380's and small 9's has exploded. Snub revolvers retain their share of the market. Barring a paradigm shift in ammunition, I don't see a whole lot of change coming.
 
Do you think unrestricted carry was popular and widespread throughout the 20th century compared to today?
Good heavens, no, not at all.
Do you think that explicit permitting of carry has increased its practice?
Absolutely; the data's been in for a long time: more persons nationwide are availing themselves of lawful concealed carry than ever.
What can be done to preserve the awareness of the need for carry if it goes "invisible," without the need for license and permit?
If violent crime continues at anywhere near the same rate, what with the widespread, instant media dissemination of information, we shan't have to worry about this.
What influences do you see on growing demand for citizen-carried handguns on firearm's design?
Regrettably, manufacturers are now acceding to consumers' desire to carry smaller and lighter handguns, in far less effective calibers, which are typically far more difficult platforms to master and shoot effectively. One wishes that with the relative freedom to carry handguns, especially in states where one does not have to worry about "printing," that folks would figure out they should be carrying the largest, most effective size and caliber handgun-- with the biggest capacity --they can conceal.

Florida's landmark state-controlled pre-emption of all gun laws within the state, coupled with a "shall-issue" stance, opened a lot of eyes. I, too, remember the news reporters and all their hand-wringing as they lamented the upcoming "streets running red, awash in the blood of the innocents as pistol-packin' folks shoot it out Old-Western style over everything from girls to parking spaces." This was in the year 1987, the year I was sworn in onto "the job." I had a badge, so I didn't go for the carry license back then.

Prior to the law's passing, gun rights were regulated by each of the state's 67 counties, by the sheriff (or other lead LE authority) or the county commission in each. Some had some provision for carry, whether or not they required a permit, while others did not. Those counties that issued licenses or otherwise permitted going armed had no authority to have those permissions be valid in any other county (though some counties may have honored those permissions granted by others.)
Well, hate to break it to you, but Washington state beat out Florida by a few years with regard to a strong state preemption of gun laws. Additionally, Washington is (arguably) the state with the first de-facto shall-issue (Indiana residents may disagree), since this state has concealed carry laws dating back to the 1930s, and it's confirmation in the RCWs of shall-issue handily pre-dates every other state in the union.
 
Old Dog writes:

but Washington state beat out Florida by a few years with regard to a strong state preemption of gun laws. Additionally, Washington is (arguably) the state with the first de-facto shall-issue (Indiana residents may disagree), since this state has concealed carry laws dating back to the 1930s, and it's confirmation in the RCWs of shall-issue handily pre-dates every other state in the union.

I wasn't meaning to say Florida was the first. I knew it wasn't. It was just the one that "made the news", and continues to be held up frequently as an example. I'm assuming it's because of the state's "political popularity"; it seems Florida gets followed, perhaps even "picked on", more than Washington, for its gun-rights stance (as well as for many other issues.) I don't even recall Washington's stance coming up in the arguments for or against Florida's law.
 
Once we get phasers or plasma weapons everything will change.

As I've said elsewhere, we should be more intentionally thoughtful about this inevitable change on the horizon. I wouldn't be surprised if solid propellant fixed cartridge arms have vanished from commerce in 100 years, just like crank telephones and vacuum tubes.
 
The history of concealed carry laws in the US is a history of those in power attempting to disarm "THEM"

Here in Florida during the 20th century the State supreme court once ruled that such laws were never intended to disarm WHITE people.

Even NY's Sullivan Law was an attempt to keep guns out of the hands of the "wrong" people, same with their switchblade laws,

Folks have been carrying concealed since clothes were developed.

If you read your new testament there is good evidence that at least a few of Christ's disciples carried, at least they suddenly produced a sword and two daggers that were previously not seen before going to the garden with Jesus.

Just because all of us alive today grew up in a time when carry, concealed or otherwise is not "common" does not mean that was a natural historical state.

-kBob
 
I was born in the early 80’s, so I didn’t start becoming aware of gun rights and gun issues until the mid 90’s. But my take is the current popularity of handguns and conceal carry is directly because of the push for handgun control during the Clinton era. Time and time again American’s have proven that they DO NOT like being told what to do. There is evidence that alcohol consumption was higher during prohibition than it was prior. Marijuana is illegal in most states still, including my own, but if I wanted some I could have it in my hands in under an hour. And in spite of the AR15 being around since the 60’s, it wasn’t a popular firearm for everyday citizens to own until after the AWB expired. It’s popularity literally exploded after renewed talks of an AWB after Sandy Hook.

So with handguns in particular, political talks of bans and registrations made more people aware of the issue. They then decided they wanted the ability to legally carry in public, so they demanded laws from their state legislatures that would allow them to do so. Next consumer demand for better conceal carry guns drove manufacturers to develop smaller and smaller handguns. I think gun manufacturers actually dropped the ball on understanding how popular conceal carry would be, and it took them a surprisingly long time to start offering single stack micro-nines.

I firmly believe that gun control proponents do more harm than good for their cause whenever they call for gun control. Left alone, most folks have kind of an apathy for conceal carry and the 2nd Amendment in general. But whenever politicians start threatening new gun laws or even bans, sales spike and more and more people get their conceal carry permits.
 
When I attended my 1st CCW class the instructor introduced himself and then said "I have been carrying, legally and illegally, for XX years." Most of us nodded knowingly in agreement with him.

Yep.

While small pocket guns were likely marketed to police as back up guns, plenty of non-police legally bought the same small pocket guns for themselves. I'm sure most of the people that bought these small guns kept them at home and only took them out for a plinking or target session. Some of those owners certainly carried concealed in public when they felt the need, they just didn't tell anyone. They certainly didn't have internet forums to talk about it back then.
 
For me, the right to keep and bear has morphed from what it used to mean to me. I got a concealed carry permit and carried regularly during the Obama administration. I have now moved, and had some major changes in life. My purposes for a firearm have shifted, and as such my mindset has also changed. I now keep a firearm on the property, but not on the body. I know that if it is needed then it is likely too far away, but that’s a risk I’m willing to take based on the fact that there is no reasonable threat which will come find me. That is shifting back to where I will be carrying on the body again soon, but still, the whole thought process is that “stuff” happens and it is my right to be prepared. Whether “stuff” be an attack on me personally (unlikely) or a situation where I may need to fend off or finish off a critter, or even to be stranded and need to put a rabbit on the fire for dinner. To me, the 2a is my right to be prepared to deal with stuff. I don’t expect to fight off the Russian invasion, I don’t expect to fight off an entire gang. I expect to wear the gun out riding in the truck, but that means I’m prepared. But if I’m prepared I’m truly prepared. AR15 pistol sighted in with good shooting reloads with 300 rds on hand. If I break down I the mountains and have to live there til a search party finds me...I’m prepared. If I get invited to go shoot at a buddy’s farm after work, I’m prepared there too.
 
Do you think unrestricted carry was popular and widespread throughout the 20th century compared to today?

Historically, concealed carry bans began as early as 1813 in Kentucky and Louisiana and continued to increase throughout the 19th century and into the 20th.. In many towns in 19th century America, even in the Old West, the carry laws were often more restrictive back then than they are today... Usually the restrictive carry laws were enacted by local municipalities. By the end of the 19th Century most states had enacted some type of concealed carry bans... Open carry was generally allowed in many places but concealing a handgun was considered by many to be something that criminals did...... Many of the popular handguns in the early 20th century that were purchased by civilians were small, often inexpensive, pocket guns because many people simply chose to carry illegally... By the 1950s legal concealed carry by civilians was very uncommon.
 
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I recall a popular holster of the times, the 'Forties or so, was a hip pocket holster that consisted of a stiff leather backing with a softer pouch. The holster was carried in the hip pocket with a button holed tab to button to the button on the hip pocket. Men in those days usually wore three piece suits routinely, especially in the presence of ladies. Suit material was rather heavy and generously cut, so a pretty fair sized revolver could be carried very easily without notice. Carry permits were non-existant in those days. Legally, a man could tell the sheriff that he usually carried a large amount of money, and the sheriff would deputize the man. If the man were prominent enough, even a deputy's commission wasn't required. The law enforcement officers just looked "the other way." Carrying was against the law if "intent to go armed" was ruled. But if a shooting was ruled justified, the "no crime has occurred."

All of which reminds me of an old story from the Old South: A reporter was assigned to cover a political rally in a small nearby town. He took the noon train and arrived just after the appointed time of the meeting. But there was evidence that a meeting had occurred but few men were around. The reporter asked one of the men what happened to the meeting.
"Feller made a motion that was out of order," responded the lingerer.

"What kind of motion was that?" asked the reporter.

The reply: "Toward his hip pocket."

As a youngster in Memphis, I often had a .38 top break or a .45 New Service. But I wasn't carrying "with intent to go armed."


Bob Wright
 
I think concealed carry was more prevalent than we know. Men carried pocket pistols as a matter of course, but it wasn't discussed or a big deal.
Think Colt and Remington and Browning pocket pistols in .25, .32, and .380 acp. Fashions of the day allowed a gun to be easily concealed and pretty much forgotten about.
As a kid I saw side arms on mail men, brand inspectors, a few store owners, but it didn't have the social ramifications it does today.

One proof of the change is we are discussing it here.

A gun ain't a hood ornament.View attachment 801223
 
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The law enforcement officers just looked "the other way." Carrying was against the law if "intent to go armed" was ruled. But if a shooting was ruled justified, the "no crime has occurred."
Very true. A couple of years prior to CCW being introduced in NM a man in my neighborhood was accosted while jogging. He pulled out his concealed pistol and shot his attacker dead. Since it was a justified shooting he did not face any charges for illegally carrying a weapon.

That is the same way that it was in my youth in West Texas and all throughout this part of the country.
 
Back in the 70's I carried a rifle and a .357magnum revolver openly in Maryland almost every day. I did live on a large farm and hunted the neighboring farms with permission and no one made any kind of deal about it. Just came back from a trip to Maryland and checked the laws before I went and found out you can't even carry a gun in your car unless you can prove you are just traveling through ,coming from and going to another state. Much less carry on your person. Times have changed for sure.
 
Interesting that folks should bring up police.

Before the American Civil War most metropolitan police forces in the US were based on the police of the UK The vast majority of city police in the US were not issued a firearm and forbidden to carry one by their agencies. Like the Bobby's (yes in this case I did spell that right even if it is not so today) US police were usually armed with a club and a whistle. They were to use the club in immediate self defense but depend on the whistle to summon the aid of good citizens. This was and until recently continued to be the case in the UK.

Also there were those in the US that felt that arming police forces was contrary to the ideals of the founding fathers who wanted no standing army to threaten the populace. This was the reason as well that police in the UK were unarmed at the time.

Something to think about next time you see and armored guy in uniform with a high cap pistol at his side and having easy access to a long arm much like militaries all over the world use and not even pretending to look like Officer Friendly.

But back on topic. Needless to say the police of the 1850s were human beings, and that peculiar bread that calls it self "Americans"

Many decided to heck with what the Captain, commissioner, mayor or city commission thinks, I need a freaking gun. Needless to say they could not get away with open carry.

Oh, come on, guess what they did!

Individual US police officers were a noticable chunk of Colt Firearms' business. Not agencies. Individual officers. They bought the 1849 .31 caliber revolver in such numbers that Colt saw the need to go them one better and up the caliber to .36 in the later Police model, the last revolver design he had a hand in.

Now some claim the 1849 and its varients sold more than any other Colts revolvers, even the military contracts, and most of them in .31 caliber. Still most went to "civilians" and one wonders what those non uniformed non badge toting folks did with all those relatively small and slim pistols.

Would any of you be surprised if you found out that all those S&W, H&R, I&J and numerous other small .32 and .38 top breaks did not spend their entire lives in Granny's nickers drawer?

Think all the cute little collectable 1903 to 1940 .25 autos that we lovingly post photos of in the semi auto sections were build for police?

Does anyone think Smith & Wesson and Colt would have made so many snubbies just for the police?

People think what they are taught to think. The innocent are blissfully unaware.

Concealed carry by individuals that are not agents of the state has not been that uncommon in history.... but has been made to seem so whenever the state wants total control of all arms. Folks that oppose such tyranny are demonized for a reason.

Not a very good one.

-kBob
 
bassjam

About the time you were born I was editing a couple of gun mags, awful ones and briefly, but gun mags. I was also very active politically.

While AR and such types were not as popular as today they were far from uncommon. That is why there was a move to ban "assault weapons".

The 1984 Dun Digest had four pages of semi auto high cap rifles listed including the AKM, FN FAL match, HK 91, the Bushmaster rifle, FNC, Galil, and a gaggle of 9mm and .30 "carbines" besides Colts Listings that included a 16 incher with collapsing stock.

I absolutely agree with you that bans and threats of bans lead to increased interest and sales. Such sales were not going bad before and it was a growth business and scaried the anti's silly. Thus all the assault weapons bills.

My three closest buds and I in 1978 all had AR-180s and one already had fallen to the AR15 fetish and had a rifle and a carbine at that time besides his Cosa Mesa AR-180.

Folks eyes did not fall out when we showed up on the range from the strangeness of our arms in those dim recesses of time I assure you.

-kBob
 
Once we get phasers or plasma weapons everything will change.
As I've said elsewhere, we should be more intentionally thoughtful about this inevitable change on the horizon. I wouldn't be surprised if solid propellant fixed cartridge arms have vanished from commerce in 100 years, just like crank telephones and vacuum tubes.

At the moment, it seems more likely that "aiming" will become obsolete before smokeless-propellant metallic cartridges. Just like we'll have "self-driving" cars before internal combustion engines are totally replaced, we'll likely see a mass transition to "smart" guns before we see the widespead adoption of energy weapons. I can't say I know exactly what to anticipate, but I suppose we'll see something like killer drones that will dispense lethal force so the subscriber doesn't need to get involved with the mechanics of shooting anyone. Essentially, they'll just need to call for their "flying monkeys."

Even if phasers or laserguns were here now, only a few of us would care to make any effort to gain skill with their use. Most people would prefer to let "someone else" do it for them. Not only will they willingly pay for such a service rather than to own a gadget they've got to make work themselves, but they will invest a substantial portion of their wealth in the enterprise of providing it to their fellow man for profit.
 
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