"custom!"

[denton]

Several years ago, I bought a Zastava commercial Mauser action, and started looking around for a barrel for it. Back before eBay banned such things, I did find an unused barrel in 7x57..... made by Zastava. So with a nice walnut stock, I have a custom Zastava rifle.... or do I? Barrel and action both say Zastava, but it sure never saw the inside of the Zastava plant.

Point is, what counts is function and to a lesser extent, appearance, not the brand that is on it.

 

[danez71]

well by that logic nothing is custom, since no one who works at any of the part production factories, also mines the ore from the earth.

If I remember right, that was the very next conclusion they came to.


This question is a hard one.

For me, at some point, modifying blurs into custom. But at what point is that?

I couldn't tell you in less than about foretyeleven thousand words.

 

[barnbwt]

You know, with clothiers you have "tailored" and "bespoke;" the former meaning 'altered from a commercial pattern' and the latter 'made to order according to the customer's desire' --pretty easy to guess which costs more, though the end result may not necessarily be significantly different.

10 out of 10 times, anyone seeking to draw a distinction between the two is trying show off their own gun through puffery

TCB

 

[Leanwolf]

This is what a custom gun is to me.

In 1978 I had Frank Packmayr at Packmayr's Gun Works in Los Angeles, build this custom rifle for me to my specs.




.280 Remington.
1909 Argentine Mauser action.
Winchester 70 style safety.
Jeweled bolt.
Canjar trigger.
English walnut stock, 26 LPI checkering classic style.
14½" LOP, with English style butt pad.
Recessed sling swivel inserts.
Gold engraved pistol grip cap with my initials.
Ebony fore end.
22" Apex match barrel, with Remington Express iron sights, ivory bead front.

That's what "custom" means to me.

L.W.

 

[susieqz]

nuts. if i go thru all the pain n suffering of putting a new sear in my 22/45, i get a better trigger than ruger supplies.
my gun has been customized to fit my desires.
further it's better than a factory gun, so as far as i'm concerned, it's a custom gun.

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

nuts. if i go thru all the pain n suffering of putting a new sear in my 22/45, i get a better trigger than ruger supplies.
my gun has been customized to fit my desires.
further it's better than a factory gun, so as far as i'm concerned, it's a custom gun.

Suzie, I installed the whole Volquartzen trigger kit, as well as the bolt kit, and also took your advice and put a Burris fast-fire on top. I still don't feel like the gun is custom. There's nothing special about it, Ive merely dropped 400 dollars worth of parts into it.

 

[susieqz]

i don't get that, jim. nothing special?
can you now not out shoot anyone in the entire world who's using one out of the box?
sounds special to me.
do you enjoy the burris?
i'm doing stuff with this pistol that i thot could only be done with a rifle.
that's so special i practically have an .........while shooting.
giggle.

 

[Sam1911]

There is, perhaps, a slight disconnect between the perceptions of those who work with their hands (craftsmen/craftspeople) vs. folks whose talents lie in other areas and who tend to look at tools and objects as discrete commodities, a digital concept, either "is" or "isn't."

One person may buy a gun and it represents a known, fixed concept or value. Call it, "stock." They may buy a custom gun, and that's still a known quantity, a fixed idea, an SKU number -- it is just a more exclusive one. Sort of like going to a mass market home builder and buying a "custom" home ... from their catalog of "custom" homes. (Catch the humorous irony inherent in that?) This person might take their stock gun and bolt some add-on stuff to it like a new stock or scope. That's not "customizing" to them, that's just bolting-on parts to their still discrete commodity. If they buy the gun with those parts bolted on, well then it's probably "custom." If they buy it with the stock already shortened to fit their body, or the barrel threaded to take their suppressor, or the trigger pull lightened, then it certainly IS custom. The fact that there are only process differences (minor or major) between replacing things and cutting and reshaping things, or making things from scratch doesn't resonate in their minds.

Another person may buy a gun and look at it as a fluid object of potential, of form, and of craft. They might buy or make some parts to add to its functionality. They may cut parts of it off, reshape metal, refinish portions, might apply skills to alter the gun in both reversible ways and non-reversible ways. To that person, anything they do to is is customization to suit their needs and tastes. Bolting on, cutting off, milling away, grinding, filing, checkering ... all just relatively minor matters of degree.

So part of this question is in how one conceptualizes firearms and workmanship. Can one only PURCHASE "custom"? Or can one perform customization for themselves?

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

There is, perhaps, a slight disconnect between the perceptions of those who work with their hands (craftsmen/craftspeople) vs. folks whose talents lie in other areas and who tend to look at tools and objects as discrete commodities, a digital concept, either "is" or "isn't."

One person may buy a gun and it represents a known, fixed concept or value. Call it, "stock." They may buy a custom gun, and that's still a known quantity, a fixed idea, an SKU number -- it is just a more exclusive one. Sort of like going to a mass market home builder and buying a "custom" home ... from their catalog of "custom" homes. (Catch the humorous irony inherent in that?) This person might take their stock gun and bolt some add-on stuff to it like a new stock or scope. That's not "customizing" to them, that's just bolting-on parts to their still discrete commodity. If they buy the gun with those parts bolted on, well then it's probably "custom." If they buy it with the stock already shortened to fit their body, or the barrel threaded to take their suppressor, or the trigger pull lightened, then it certainly IS custom. The fact that there are only process differences (minor or major) between replacing things and cutting and reshaping things, or making things from scratch doesn't resonate in their minds.

Another person may buy a gun and look at it as a fluid object of potential, of form, and of craft. They might buy or make some parts to add to its functionality. They may cut parts of it off, reshape metal, refinish portions, might apply skills to alter the gun in both reversible ways and non-reversible ways. To that person, anything they do to is is customization to suit their needs and tastes. Bolting on, cutting off, milling away, grinding, filing, checkering ... all just relatively minor matters of degree.

So part of this question is in how one conceptualizes firearms and workmanship. Can one only PURCHASE "custom"? Or can one perform customization for themselves?

Great question Sam. In my opinion something "custom" would come from the hands of a true professional. If bubba just so happens to be a real craftsman, it will likely show in the work. At which point we could call that custom. Anything outside of that, in my opnion, would have to be done by the factory, or a smith to be called custom. This would not include anything I could take off, and pin/bolt on. Its too easy to call it custom.

 

[Sam1911]

Its too easy to call it custom.

But why would that matter?

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

i don't get that, jim. nothing special?
can you now not out shoot anyone in the entire world who's using one out of the box?
sounds special to me.
do you enjoy the burris?
i'm doing stuff with this pistol that i thot could only be done with a rifle.
that's so special i practically have an .........while shooting.
giggle.

I do love the way it shoots. I'm not super impressed with the Fastfire. I was assuming it would have a perfectly circular dot. Mine does not. I'm going to inquire with Burris to have them make it right.

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

But why would that matter?

In my brain, it just does. Why use the word if its not going to infer something unique, and special?

 

[Sam1911]

Looked at another way, you could easily build a gun like no other in the whole world by picking bolt-on parts. How would that not be custom? It isn't the stock, catalog item.

You could cut off an inch from the barrel of a rifle with a hacksaw or a lathe. I could do it. You could do it. Jim the gunsmith could do it. The machine at the factory could do it. What does it matter? Is the item the sum of its molecules, or is there something in whose hands did the work? Is it "custom"? Why does it matter?

What is it in the word "custom" that somehow MUST be defined in this impossible-to-isolate way?

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

Looked at another way, you could easily build a gun like no other in the whole world by picking bolt-on parts. How would that not be custom? It isn't the stock, catalog item.

You could cut off an inch from the barrel of a rifle with a hacksaw or a lathe. I could do it. You could do it. Jim the gunsmith could do it. The machine at the factory could do it. What does it matter? Is the item the sum of its molecules, or is there something in whose hands did the work? Is it "custom"? Why does it matter?

What is it in the word "custom" that somehow MUST be defined in this impossible-to-isolate way?

Its not the word itself, Its how its used in the world we live in. Its a buzz word, used to attract attention, and command higher prices.

So let me break it down. I guess I never clearly articulated my actual gripe on the matter. What really grinds my gears is the pigheaded attitude folks acquire when then start to put the "custom" label on their guns. The prices they demand, and their actions would be justified if the gun in question actually had some custom (hand worked, professional quality) upgrades. Otherwise what they have is just a little buzzer bell on their handlebars.

 

[bannockburn]

Sam1911
xxjumbojimboxx

I would say "both"; you can purchase "custom" by having it built to your specifications or you can do it yourself. It may be a mass produced item but once you add or change something on it, it's now personalized to you and to my way of thinking "customized".

As far as guns go, this is what factory custom work is to me. Granted I didn't order it from the factory this way but it was produced in very limited numbers by Colt's Custom Shop and has all of the custom features I would want on it. Only things I added were the Pachmayr grips (further customized by removing the center grip portion), mainspring housing, and magazine. Looks and handles like a Combat Commander and shoots like a Gold Cup.

 

[OpticsPlanet]

To me, IMHO...

custom is one of a kind (could be from factory or individual, although factory would need to be limited edition or some type of exclusivity) and most of the time custom involves a unique finish

Modified is when you swap out stock parts for other commonly available parts

custom or modified can add value to the right buyer, but its not a given and more often than not it does nothing to increase value

-Matt S.

 

[Ed Ames]

Y'all are over thinking this.

If it was made to the intended user (usually buyer's) specifications it is custom. If it is built on speculation of meeting a market's needs (usually, what the business thinks will sell) it is not.

E.g. if I go to the USMC and say, "I can build rifles exactly the way you want them. Here are the options I offer and if you want something else there is an area for write-in requirements. Tell me what you want, I'll quote a price, and if you approve I'll start delivering your custom rifles." That's custom.

If I instead say, "This is our Model 37 MkIII, we have 120,000 of them in inventory and will sell them to you for $63,782 per unit. How many do you want?" Not custom.

If the USMC then has their armorers remove the barrels and replace them with lengths of PVC because they want to use PVC barrels, at that point they are customized by the USMC. Not improved (necessarily), but customized. If on the other hand the PVC barrels are because the USMC wants to sell them and think PVC barrels are what their potential customers probably want, it is not custom.

Of course that works for single units as well.

If it is built or changed to meet the requirements a specific buyer/user, it is custom whether the change was good or bad.

 

[Sam1911]

Its not the word itself, Its how its used in the world we live in. Its a buzz word, used to attract attention, and command higher prices.

Ok, well sure, when used to advertise an item for sale it is a "buzzword." Like "vintage," or "rare," or "Arnold Palmer and Dave Mustaine Collaborative Limited Edition!"... or "factory original?" Unless you're actually dealing in commodities, you look for ways to make your item stand out from all the others for sale. Value is whatever someone will pay -- not a penny more or a penny less. You've got to get someone to choose yours. Not all sales jargon is equally effective, of course.

So let me break it down. I guess I never clearly articulated my actual gripe on the matter. What really grinds my gears is the pigheaded attitude folks acquire when then start to put the "custom" label on their guns.

Well, the job of every seller is to convince someone to pay the most possible for his item. The job of every buyer is to negotiate the lowest price for the highest value. That does make sales inherently adversarial, no matter how cordial.

The prices they demand

Fortunately, no one can demand you pay a penny for anything. Likewise, you can't demand they part with it for a penny less than they want for it. But it does make some folks angry to see things offered for sale at more than they would pay for them, and it makes some folks very angry to be told that someone doesn't value their sale items as highly as they do themselves. Lots of anger in the world. Outrage where it isn't actually appropriate. You don't like the changes I've made? You don't agree that this is "customized?" You (ah HA...the true root of the matter) don't want to pay what I want to be paid to part with it? Fine. No sale takes place, peace be upon you, good luck in your search!

, and their actions would be justified if the gun in question actually had some custom (hand worked, professional quality) upgrades. Otherwise what they have is just a little buzzer bell on their handlebars.

All judgment calls with no actual grounding in fact. Opinion is a fine reason to decide not to buy something. But a little buzzer bell on the handlebar makes some riders pretty happy. It's all good!

 

[Hookeye]

I think parts swapping to not be customizing.

If something is built by the factory, substantially outside the production norm (by customer order)

or built by substantial rework outside of the factory

I'd call that custom.

 

[Hookeye]

Bannockburn,

I thought about getting a GC Commander, and while it comes from the Colt Custom shop...........I really don't consider it a custom.

Pic from the web

View attachment 724877

 

[Hookeye]

Now, I used to shoot a reg frame opened up for a GC trigger, built by Don Nygord, that had a Kart slide on top..........mean little squirrel rig.

Since Mr. Nygord was of some note I'd almost call that gun custom

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

Ok, well sure, when used to advertise an item for sale it is a "buzzword." Like "vintage," or "rare," or "Arnold Palmer and Dave Mustaine Collaborative Limited Edition!"... or "factory original?" Unless you're actually dealing in commodities, you look for ways to make your item stand out from all the others for sale. Value is whatever someone will pay -- not a penny more or a penny less. You've got to get someone to choose yours. Not all sales jargon is equally effective, of course.

Well, the job of every seller is to convince someone to pay the most possible for his item. The job of every buyer is to negotiate the lowest price for the highest value. That does make sales inherently adversarial, no matter how cordial.

Fortunately, no one can demand you pay a penny for anything. Likewise, you can't demand they part with it for a penny less than they want for it. But it does make some folks angry to see things offered for sale at more than they would pay for them, and it makes some folks very angry to be told that someone doesn't value their sale items as highly as they do themselves. Lots of anger in the world. Outrage where it isn't actually appropriate. You don't like the changes I've made? You don't agree that this is "customized?" You (ah HA...the true root of the matter) don't want to pay what I want to be paid to part with it? Fine. No sale takes place, peace be upon you, good luck in your search!

All judgment calls with no actual grounding in fact. Opinion is a fine reason to decide not to buy something. But a little buzzer bell on the handlebar makes some riders pretty happy. It's all good!

Are you a robot sam? Im just curious, because everything you post is always so literal, and logical.

LOL... I jest.

People's idea of whats custom is trash, and you know it.

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

Sam, would you buy this?

Granted he didnt use the word "custom" but its along the same lines. I only posted it because it popped up on my facebook while we were talking about it.

 

[bannockburn]

Hookeye

I think just the opposite. I would consider something like that Gold Cup Commander as being custom, whether it was a limited run from the factory or from Colt's Custom Shop. To each their own.

 

[Sam1911]

Yeah, his asking price is higher than the market will probably bear. In which case he won't sell it.

The value of leaving him negative feedback is probably pretty slight. He'll figure out soon enough whether his price is good by whether he finds a buyer. If he wants to sell soon, he'll lower the price.

They say everything's for sale for a price. I can see putting stuff up for sale just to see if someone wants it more than you do.

I do the same thing with work. I really don't want to go through the hassle to go far out of town to do a job and deal with travel costs and grumpy crews. If you want us to work on your job 500 miles away, we WILL, but it's going to be at such a high price that it offsets the discomfort of the extra hassle. "That price is ridiculous!!!"? Don't get mad that the price is high. We don't owe you the work and we aren't forcing you to hire us. If you really, really want us to do it, fine, make it super worth our while to do so.

Same basic idea. That guy might be asking a little much for his Glock, but he's not in desperate need to sell it. If you happen to really like the extras, that price might be acceptable to you. I'd certainly say it has been customized. But it isn't a factory custom gun...whatever that might mean to folks.