DA Revolvers: 6 For Sure. Really?

[1911Tuner]

Maybe not.

I took an unplanned, spur of the moment trip to the range today to shoot my single-actions and decided to run a few 90% top-end .357 loads through my 3-inch Model 13...the one that's been my more or less constant companion for the last 6 months. The ammunition was my own 160-grain cast SWC and 13.5 grains of 2400. Not a wimp load by any stretch, but neither is it a Grizzly killer. Perfect in my Blackhawk and 681. A pretty good handful in the 3 and 4-inch Model 13s.

Before I go any further, let me note that this little revolver has seen very little use in the 25 years that I've had it. Carried a lot and seldom shot...it's probably seen no more than 200 rounds, and only about half that with magnum-class ammunition.

It did something that I haven't seen a revolver do in a good many years. Used to see it a lot in 4-inch Model 29s firing "Keith" type ammunition. Occasionally in a well-used Super Blackhawk. A couple times in K-frame .357s that had a lot of rounds down the pipe.

I ripped off two fast rounds, and on the third pull, the hammer fell on a dead chamber.
I knew immediately what had happened, so I tried again. This time, it clicked on the second pull.

What occurred was that the heavy recoil compressed the bolt spring far enough to release the cylinder when the muzzle climbed skyward. When the gun torqued, the cylinder stood still and indexed the previous chamber...with an empty case...to move under the hammer on the next pull. Click.

Not a problem on the range. In an emergency...could be a big problem.

I switched to my normal range load for the K-frames consisting of the same bullet and 6.5 grains of Unique. It's plenty healthy, beating the pants off the vaunted .38 Special +P 158 LSWCHP...but not even close to the violence of the other one. Ripped off 6 rounds in about 3 seconds with nary a problem.

So....It looks like I'll be ordering a new bolt spring soon. I don't think I've got one out in the parts drawer, dagnabbit.

Lesson:

Ya might wanna run a few test rounds through that little revolver that almost never gets shot. It might hold an unpleasant surprise if it happens to be on hand for an Up to your Crotch in Crocodiles moment.

 

[1KPerDay]

Interesting. Thanks for the report.

 

[Cosmoline]

That's a good thing to keep in mind.

Over the years I've had a few recurrent issues with wheelguns, mostly with reloaded ammo. One I ran into a few weeks ago was some 180 casts in .357 that I didn't resize again. One bullet had bent some of the brass side, thereby wedging the round into the chamber without fully seating it. The result was a cylinder that would not turn. This was exacerbated by the .38 Special ring that had been developing from loads of .38 shot previously in the day.

I've also had heavy cast reloads come loose in recoil and jam up the works.

On Ruger sixes sometimes the ejector rod will unscrew and get wedged. You can still shoot your six but after that it's a bit of work to get it fixed.

I've also had that weird mainspring on a Colt DS snap. The hard part was finding and fitting a replacement.

 

[Guillermo]

great post John

thank you

 

[1911Tuner]

This is the sort of thing that we'll start to see more often as the trend toward stuffing more and more power into smaller and lighter revolvers continues. Eventually, it reaches the point that the physics just won't accommodate it unless spring rates go through the roof...and there's a price to pay for that, too.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

I think I heard of that elsewhere but it's rare. I ran a LOT of factory 125s through two Ruger DAs to the point where the forcing cones washed out and the barrels had to be replaced. (LEO instructor.) Recoil was significant but they weren't the same internals as S&W. I only saw one go down on the line, and that was from a (staked) thumbpiece screw that backed out and let the thumbpiece tie the gun up.

I made it a point to blue loc-tite the ejector rods on all revolvers and harangue people to keep the ejector star and recess under it bone dry and clean.

Anything can happen but my trust quotient for wheelguns is pretty high.

 

[Rexster]

I have fired enough sixguns, and been around others firing them, long enough, to know that several things can keep a revolver from firing as it should. Most can be remedied quickly and easily, but a gunfight is NOT the time to diagnose problems!

Indeed, thou shalt shoot thy guns, with all of thine loads. A sixgun may not require the wearing-in of parts, as some autos require, but sixguns and ammo DO require function-testing.

 

[Maple_City_Woodsman]

There are many ways in which a revolver can fail. Several of them are even more common that what the OP experienced.

A lead/primer/fowling fragment can jam one of the internal parts, jamming the gun - this happens somewhat frequently in old single action reproduction guns that aren't cleaned properly, but it can happen in newer double action guns as well.

Another very common revolver jam occurs when heavy recoiling rounds jump their crimp and prevent the cylinder from cycling.

Revolvers are certainly not '6 fer sure' - they are merely '6 most of the time'. This is not much different than how a 1911 is '8 most of the time', or a Glock is '17 most of the time'. I love my revolvers, but reality is a cruel mistress.

 

[PO2Hammer]

I've had more trouble by far with revolvers than with autos. I have two revolvers down right now. Still like them though.

 

[oldfool]

surely every wheelgun shooter ever was has had a malfunction every once in a relatively rare while, but so do the autoloader folks... there is a reason why they practice those FTF drills so religiously, you know

but be it 6 or 17, the great majority of such issues in either is due to ammo being used, leastways in any gun that the shooter has reasonable faith in, faith based on round count. Me, I would blame it (described incident) on the load, not the gun... or rather the load to weight ratio.

"This is the sort of thing that we'll start to see more often as the trend toward stuffing more and more power into smaller and lighter revolvers continues. Eventually, it reaches the point that the physics just won't accommodate it "

spot on

The unlimited enthusiasm for ever more power in ever smaller lighter handguns has already gone too far, and getting worse. You can learn to handle the felt recoil and still shoot well with any of them, simply by merit of enough practice, but you cannot beat the laws of physics. You give up a lot of reliability with any gun built too light for the load. Weight in a gun always was the shooter's best friend, but don't hold your breath waiting to hear that in the sales pitch.

"a man has got to know his limitations", as Dirty Harry might say
but a shooter needs to know the limitations of his gun as well

but I still think all that has had far more impact on the autoloader folks than wheelgun folks - "limp wristing" has practically reached epidemic proportions with the introduction of so many sub-compact autos in the marketplace; carry comfort can too easily lead to severe "discomfort" in a critically stressful moment.

for hot loads, make mine heavy, be it wheelgun or auto


PS
"I switched to my normal range load for the K-frames consisting of the same bullet and 6.5 grains of Unique. It's plenty healthy, beating the pants off the vaunted .38 Special +P 158 LSWCHP...but not even close to the violence of the other one."

OP has forgotten more about revolvers and autos than I will ever know, but me, I would do a whole lot more of that
run a whole lot higher round count on that other lesser load through the gun before labeling it unreliable or "fixing" the gun, and save that hotter for heavier
but that's just me, generic +P will do me ok with any 3" I shoot

 

[oldfool]

for the record, I can only think of four revolver malfunctions I have had

#1, ejector rod backed out, as someone else mentioned above,on a Taurus 96 rimfire
(a dab of loctite on the threads fixed that)

#2, same gun, coil mainspring tension nut backed itself off a tad, light strike misfires, (re-tighten and pin in place)

#3, newly bought k-17, took me longer than ought to notice that powder residue on cylinder face will cause cylinder drag with a 0.002 b/c gap
(cure, wipe off cylinder face every 5 or 6 dozen rounds when target shooting, smile at the tight groups it can shoot, and use your other k-17 for high round count rapid fire DA practice)

#4, cheap crappy ammo that sheds "jacket" rings in forcing cone of a k-66 (and did same in at least two other revolvers as well) will tie up your gun
(cure, don't shoot crappy ammo)

but, I don't think I own an autoloader that hasn't jammed on some occasion
so, for a CCW auto, make doggone sure it really, really likes the ammo you feed it

 

[hardluk1]

1911 Tuner See you found the limits for your sw13 . Frame torque is an interesting problem with early smiths. Not just springs. Wonder if your revolver has been hurt more than it might show even with standard loads.
Keep an eye out for a DW 15-2. With the combo of grips and barrels avalable you can still have a mid sized 6 shooter that can handle the hot loads with no worries of the early smiths.

 

[Dogguy]

I've never had an autoloader hang up to the point it wouldn't shoot at all. I have had this happen with three high-end revolvers--all during range sessions, thankfully.

 

[1911Tuner]

The gun isn't all that old. It's not a pinned/recessed model. I can't find any other problems. As I said...it hasn't been fired more than 200 times and only about half that with magnum-level handloads. It looks like it's been through the wringer, but it's just been carried a lot.

I went back today with Pachmayr Compac (tm) grips on it, and the problem didn't resurface...so part of it was my being unable to keep it from riding up in my hand when the muzzle flipped hard...and I have large, fairly strong hands. The OEM "Magna" stocks are just a little too slippery, I guess.

I still intend to replace the bolt spring, though. Cheap insurance, and a 10-minute task.

There just ain't any reason not to.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Another very common revolver jam occurs when heavy recoiling rounds jump their crimp and prevent the cylinder from cycling.

That's bound up my SRH .454 a few times.

I had a friend's K-frame ejector rod unscrew; As said, fired off the cylinder with no problem, but reloading......well, it cost me a big chunk of skin on my right thumb.

My Security six cracked the forcing cone, and it bound the cylinder up bad. couldn't fire the last two, took a mallet to open it.

 

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff is confused... Which is a common condition.

Do you mean the cylinder bolt spring, or the cylinder stop spring?

Anyway, in pre-war advertisments, Colt pointed out that when shooting with the thumb resting against the S&W "push forward to release" thumbpiece the recoil could cause the cylinder to unlatch (and they had hi-speed movie footage to prove it). This they said, couldn't happen with a Colt, where the thumbpiece was pulled backwards.

At best, the little bolt spring is weak, and replacing it with a stronger one is a good idea. Also be sure the hole isn't packed with grease, and the plunger isn't missing.

So far as cylinder stop is concerned, In the "good ol' days" it was tensioned with a heavy coil spring & plunger, until after World War Two when they went to the current weak-sister mousetrap style.

Always look at the various cost-cutting changes to see if they might cause some unintended consequences.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Yet another reason to shoot what you carry periodically.

 

[1911Tuner]

Fuff...It's the stop bolt...not the cylinder release. Some call it the cylinder stop. I call it the stop bolt or the bolt. Under recoil, the spring compresses and lets the cylinder turn. In a Smith, it indexes the last chamber for next up and the hammer falls on a fired case.

 

[18DAI]

In almost forty three years of shooting revolvers - both for police qualification and competition - I've had exactly two malfunctions.

The first was with a 4" 13-1. A piece of bullet jacket material lodged itself above the forcing cone and against the cylinder face. The trigger pull went from 5lbs to around 30lbs. The gun was still functional though.

The other was a 681 that had its ejector rod slowly unscrew during a match. Again, still functional and in that case an easy fix.

I don't think I've simply been lucky. I think buying quality revolvers that were well designed and well made - as well as having everything I needed in a revolver and nothing I didn't - and doing simple care and maintenance while keeping them scrupulously clean - all the time shooting factory ammunition, resulted in my lack of problems.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Would you say there's a marked difference in reliability between a modern autopistol and a modern revolver?

 

[Old Fuff]

Under recoil, the spring compresses and lets the cylinder turn. In a Smith, it indexes the last chamber for next up and the hammer falls on a fired case.

Ah so....

Once and awhile I find that the little mousetrap spring isn't correctly nested in the hole it's seated in. Thereafter the bolt/cylinder stop (etc.) can do strange things...

 

[1911Tuner]

It's seated, Fuff. One of the first things I did after it happened was check to see if it was broken or cattywampus.

In case you didn't see it...I went back today with a set of mo' sticky grips that don't slip in my hand, and the problem didn't do an encore.

Still want a new spring, though. Things like this keep me awake nights...

 

[MrBorland]

It's the stop bolt...not the cylinder release. Some call it the cylinder stop. I call it the stop bolt or the bolt. Under recoil, the spring compresses and lets the cylinder turn.

ooooh...makes more sense now...sort of...

I'm trying to understand this by looking at the relationship between the stop and the frame. Rather than open my gun, I deferred to SylvanForge's sticky.

Recoil would raise the muzzle, rotating the frame in the link below counterclockwise, but it looks like that's the opposite rotation needed to spontaneously release the cylinder stop. You can see, as SylvanForge rotates the stop counterclockwise to lower the tab, it's the same as rotating the frame clockwise, or muzzle-down. Am I missing something?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4969176&postcount=6

 

[1911Tuner]

Stop bolt drops straight down when the cam on the trigger bears against it. Recoil...Frame comes straight up. Bolt's mass obeys Newton 1A and tries to stand still while frame rises, compressing the spring. Bolt drops, releasing the cylinder. Gun torques slightly. Cylinder obeys Newton 1A and stands still.

Several years ago, I had a Model 29 that would do this little trick about every other round, so I started firing and looking. The cylinder wasn't far out of battery...but every single time...it indexed the chamber that I'd just fired. A new spring fixed it.

 

[MrBorland]

Yep - I'm seeing it now. Thanks. "Straight up" is more a better way to describe the recoiling gun than "rotates".

Thanks for the heads-up.