gwnorth
Member
Of course it's not unheard of for soldiers to totally ignore SOP.
As an IT person, I applaud that attitude! Who pays any attention to the manual - nothing would ever actually get done if we followed the manual!
Designed to be carried Cocked and Locked: Not!
- Thread starter Slamfire
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As an IT person, I applaud that attitude! Who pays any attention to the manual - nothing would ever actually get done if we followed the manual!
Shawn Dodson
Member
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- Dec 28, 2002
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- 3,198
I could've worded that better, couldn't have I? My apologies.
I was referring to holstering a 1911 with chambered cartridge and decocked hammer. There's been an evolution in philosophy since then.
Starcheck55
Member
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well played, very well played
After packing a glock around with one in the chamber for a year or so packing a 1911 around condition 1 seems like being overly safe. Especially with my norinco, I mean the trigger pull in condition 0 is not much less then the trigger pull on my glock, and it has a safety!
REAPER4206969
Member
Thought so.
Guillermo
member
using the logic of the OP, I am sure that Slamfire carries his 45 hammer down, empty chamber in a drop-leg cavalry holster with the flap
JohnBT
Member
"is now typically carried with an empty chamber by military personnel. That means what, exactly,"
That they can't find any ammo either?
That they can't find any ammo either?
Not that it mattered to the Navy, but the 1940 version of FM 23-35 mentions C&L as the carry mode suitable for "imminent action." When I participated in boarding vessels in the PG in the late 80s, we boarded with C&L Condition 1 1911s and chambered 870 Wingmasters with the crossbolt on. We had to be ready for anything and were.
Whatever the original Army manual said in the period after adoption has to be the most irrelevant thing ever. Theory dictates initial practice and practice informs practical changes to the theory.
Condition 3 is a common peacetime and rear area carry practice for using Uncle Sugar's handguns. Going into harm's way it was not. Condition 2 fell off of the horse right out of the gate. Condition 0 had better be only employed when being actively shot at.
Some people out there should be carrying in Condition 4, if at all.
Whatever the original Army manual said in the period after adoption has to be the most irrelevant thing ever. Theory dictates initial practice and practice informs practical changes to the theory.
Condition 3 is a common peacetime and rear area carry practice for using Uncle Sugar's handguns. Going into harm's way it was not. Condition 2 fell off of the horse right out of the gate. Condition 0 had better be only employed when being actively shot at.
Some people out there should be carrying in Condition 4, if at all.
I was in the Navy from 1958-1962 and while on SP duty we also carried the 1911 in condition 3...
While I do have a drop leg cavalry holster, and a Patton saber, I carry my M1911, chamber empty, magazine empty, to the range in a padded box. I return from the range with the chamber empty, magazine empty, in a padded box.
And after careful cleaning, I store the thing in a box.
I take very good care of my antiques.
mljdeckard
Member
Regarding the carry and use of firearms by members of the military, my commander agrees that these rules have nothing to do with logic or reason.
Guillermo
member
It is good to know that the old girl is in good hands
M2 Carbine
member
This is true.
We did the same thing in the USMC.
We also practiced chambering a round one handed. I hadn't thought about that in years.
I just tried it but my hand is too weak now days.
You hold the gun in your strong hand with your fingers across the top of the slide, thumb behind the grip safety. Then you force the slide back with your fingers.
It's really more for show than anything, since it was easier and faster to hang the rear sight on your belt to pull the slide back.
An interesting bit about the 1911.
In 1968, when I was a Army helicopter instructor, I had a student that was awarded the Silver Star in Viet Nam for killing a bunch (I don't remember the number) of VC with a 1911A1. He shot them from (a measured) 7 yards to 97 yards.
I read the Silver Star commendation but, to my regret, I did not copy down all the details.
.
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Guillermo
member
cool info M2
and thank you for your service
and thank you for your service
Quoting OP:
"(What you will find when you deal with the User, is that the User likes what he has, wants something better but only a little different, and rejects revolutionary change)"
Thanks for the research and images.
What really caught my attention is the above statement. This was true 100 years ago, and is still true nowadays. Too often, the Deciders (brass) are not the final Users (grunts), which also presents problems. The Testers are caught in the middle.
"(What you will find when you deal with the User, is that the User likes what he has, wants something better but only a little different, and rejects revolutionary change)"
Thanks for the research and images.
What really caught my attention is the above statement. This was true 100 years ago, and is still true nowadays. Too often, the Deciders (brass) are not the final Users (grunts), which also presents problems. The Testers are caught in the middle.
SSN Vet
Member
Yup... and I've seen one Petty Officer of the Deck standing in front of the ol' green table cloth after he blew a hole in his calf doing exactly that.
Talk about adding insult to injury.... the day after he came back from the hospital... Captains Mast
If it can in any possible way be screwed up.... leave it to a sailer to find that way.
Lets go back to the original post by Slamfire, the 1911 was not designed to be carried in condition 1. Period. In reference to the Calvary, after an engagement in which the pistol was used, the slide safety was engaged, the pistol holstered, until a very excited horse was brought under control, at which time the pistol was again placed in condition 3, hammer down on an empty chamber. Regardless of how it is carried today ( which still dates from the 1960's ) Mr. Browning designed the 1911 for the US Army, not himself. At no time until the 1911 was replaced by the M9 did the Army ( knowingly ) allow it to be carried in any other way than condition 3. Lets try and stay away from comparing the 1911 to the M-16, M-9 and the M- 1 Tank. As far as following the Standard Operating procedures, any officer or NCO that allows the men under their charge to ignore their training and proper procedure, is not taking care of those men, and will lead to a increase of body bags needed. Also as far as once out the gate, see the above, once out the gate it is even more important to remember your training if you wanted to stay alive. By the way, just to mess up the minds of all the video players ( where I believe most get their information ) , I can't speak for the sand box, that's not my war, but in RVN, only when in actual " Injun" country was a round chambered in the M-16, not before. Once again, you may carry the 1911 frame anyway you want, but don't make yourself appear uneducated and say it was designed to be carried that way. Simply not true.:banghead:
Guillermo
member
It was obviously designed to have that option or the safety would not engage with the hammer back.
Unless you are saying that it was designed to lock the hammer back over an empty chamber?
The gun was not designed with excited horses in mind, that was how the Army used it perhaps...but John Moses wasn't thinking "darn that horse is excitable...I should design a pistol to address that situation"
If you are suggesting that the "cocked and locked" design was only for "waiting to safe a weapon until the horse calmed down" explain the feature on the Hi Power please
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REAPER4206969
Member
If you were trained to carry C3 that's training that should be forgotten.
Please read my post about the horses, the gun was designed for the Calvary. You can use it to stir your coffee, pound nails and to use it to play with yourself, but that doesn't mean it was designed for those chores :banghead: I'm out of here, by by.
Guillermo
member
please explain the feature on the Hi Power or was it a cavalry weapon too?
MachIVshooter
Member
IMO, regardless of what owners manuals, training manuals or field manuals say, a single action pistol carried for defense should be C&L condition 1. No one has ever felt that they had a couple of extra seconds to spare on a needless procedure in a fight for their life.
Two methods that I have used for one-handed were:
-lift the gun slightly, turn it 90* in the holster and shove down.
-thumb through the trigger guard, index finger on the spring plunger, squeeze (obviously does not work with FLGR installed)
Two methods that I have used for one-handed were:
-lift the gun slightly, turn it 90* in the holster and shove down.
-thumb through the trigger guard, index finger on the spring plunger, squeeze (obviously does not work with FLGR installed)
Guillermo
member
MachIV
Of course you are right but swerving back to the OP, was it DESIGNED to be carried condition 1?
With the exception of the "jumpy horse" theory there is no other reason for the hammer to be locked back. As the feature was carried well beyond mounted cavalry I am skeptical of Ron James assertion.
Then again, Colt's logo is that of a rearing horse…
Of course you are right but swerving back to the OP, was it DESIGNED to be carried condition 1?
With the exception of the "jumpy horse" theory there is no other reason for the hammer to be locked back. As the feature was carried well beyond mounted cavalry I am skeptical of Ron James assertion.
Then again, Colt's logo is that of a rearing horse…
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