Designed to be carried Cocked and Locked: Not!

[mljdeckard]

It was designed to have numerous options for carry. If it WEREN'T designed to have condition one as an option, then why does the safety ONLY engage when the hammer is cocked?

Army policies have included carrying condition one when action is imminent. As civilians, we carry because it is the nature of personal defense that when it is necessary to use deadly force, you may not have time to rack the slide or cock the hammer. If the world were perfect enough to always have time to rack the slide, we might reconsider whether or not there is really a reason to carry at all.

 

[twofifty]

Incidentally, just how does the military say the M9 must be carried?
Decocked on a charged chamber?

If that's the case, then I'd say that for the 1911 in the military, the Condition 3 proponents have made their case.

Back to the 1911, which I've never carried. In Condition 1 concealed carry, isn't there a pretty good chance the hammer will snag on cover garments? In a SD situation, wouldn't that be a bad turn of events?

 

[REAPER4206969]

On modern 1911s the hammer recesses into the beavertail grip safety.

 

[SwampWolf]

I was issued a 1911 (Remington Rand for those who might be interested) while serving as an Air Policeman in the early sixties and we were required to carry it holstered with chamber empty and hammer down. I can't tell you how many nights I wiled away in a guard shack on Anderson AFB in Guam, practicing drawing the pistol by holding my hat out with my right hand at shoulder's height, releasing the hat and drawing from the flapped holster with my right hand and chambering a "round" before said hat hit the floor. After a while, I got pretty good at it. Most assuredly, these "practice" sessions occured only after the pistol was triple checked to be certain it was empty and I had determined that nobody else was in the immediate area.
As a civilian, unencumbered by silly military protocol, my "manual of arms" is strictly "cocked and locked" when carrying a 1911 for serious social duty. I think you'd be crazy to carry it in any other mode.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

While I doubt John M. Browning/God intended it to be carried C&L, you can carry yours however you want. If it is to be carried on my person to protect my hide, it is fastest into action and safest C&L.

 

[Guillermo]

While I doubt John M. Browning/God intended it to be carried C&L, you can carry yours however you want.

what is your theory as to the reason why the safety only works in the cocked postition if it was not designed to be C&Led?

 

[Nicky Santoro]

Interesting thread. It seems to be a showdown between those who have been there and done that and those who are the typical internet hard charging, butt kicking range rangers. In '69 and '70 I carried a 1911 as a secondary weapon, depending upon the primary weapon I was assigned. It was carried in a flap holster, mag in, empty chamber, hammer down. I know of no one who did differently. BTW, never drew it. I'm sure some of you know a guy who knows a guy who has cousin who did differently. Horse manure.

 

[EddieNFL]

Incidentally, just how does the military say the M9 must be carried?
Decocked on a charged chamber?

I've forgotten the reg, but when I drafted the SOP for my section, it was chambered, hammer down and safety off. May have changed in 20 years.

 

[REAPER4206969]

I'm sure some of you know a guy who knows a guy who has cousin who did differently. Horse manure.

Would you like to guess how the military carry's them now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzHqqTmSnC0

 

[orrwdd]

Great Video Reaper.

We didn't see any of those guys having to rack a slide!!! BTW that is one great well worn 1911 in your pics.

Bill

 

[Slamfire]

With the exception of the "jumpy horse" theory there is no other reason for the hammer to be locked back. As the feature was carried well beyond mounted cavalry I am skeptical of Ron James assertion.

Ohh, Ron James is right on target. If the Cavalry had given the M1911 a thumbs down, the service handgun would have remained the M1909 Colt New Service revolver. (Which is a pretty darn good gun, except for the skinny period sights)

Pg 56, Colt 45 Service pistol

On this page is a long extract from a 1910 Board of Officer’s evaluating two mechanical locks submitted by John Browning on the 1910 prototype. I am using only the bit pertinent to this discussion:

The board is of the opinion that the safety device for locking the slide and hammer when the latter is in the cocked position is necessary for this kind of pistol, especially as as the majority of the pistols will be used by the mounted services

Pg 51, Cavalry Board Test, 11 March 1910, excerpts from the Cavalry Boards comments on the M1909 semiautomatic pistol (which did not have the thumb safety)

In the hands of the expert and in the hands of an officer accustomed to pistols of all classes the automatic pistol appears to be a wonderful weapon, but it is too complicated, or apparently so, and there is too much to learn about it to make it a desirable weapon for the ordinary soldier.

When used mounted there is a certain amount of uncertainty and nervousness apparent in the rider which militates greatly against its usefulness and which would confine it to the very best riders with unusual self control. For the ordinary trooper it would be dangerous even at the usual mounted pistol practice, where with the ordinary pistol, in spite of the most watchful precautions, accidents frequently occur, and where fatalities are only averted by the nimbleness of the onlookers

How nimble do you have to be to survive mounted pistol practice?

Would you like to guess how the military carry's them now?

The Delta force link was interesting to watch, but these Special Force types are not safety experts. It is charitable to say that they engage in risky behavior, less charitably these guys are volunteering to do things that are positively suicidal.

Thank them for their service to our country, but don't be a passenger in one of their cars until they are past the age of 50.

 

[christcorp]

This is why God invented the SigSauer P220. No debate and no safety issues. As for my Springfield Armory 1911A1. "IF" carried; seldom to never; it's got a round chambered and the hammer down. "Condition 2". And if you're smarter than the gun, this is a very safe method.

 

[Guillermo]

Slamfire

That is some cool research

I am not sure that the "sales pitch" proves that it was designed with the jumpy horse in mind. It does prove that they used it as a way to convince the Army to adopt it.

In addition, this does no explain why the HiPower would have the same feature.

Still, it is very cool reading.

Thank you for posting it.

 

[sigsteve]

I was issued a 1911 (Remington Rand for those who might be interested) while serving as an Air Policeman in the early sixties and we were required to carry it holstered with chamber empty and hammer down. I can't tell you how many nights I wiled away in a guard shack on Anderson AFB in Guam, practicing drawing the pistol by holding my hat out with my right hand at shoulder's height, releasing the hat and drawing from the flapped holster with my right hand and chambering a "round" before said hat hit the floor. After a while, I got pretty good at it. Most assuredly, these "practice" sessions occured only after the pistol was triple checked to be certain it was empty and I had determined that nobody else was in the immediate area.
As a civilian, unencumbered by silly military protocol, my "manual of arms" is strictly "cocked and locked" when carrying a 1911 for serious social duty. I think you'd be crazy to carry it in any other mode.

I think SwampWolf has the point here. In the military it's a regulation for "safety" concerns. I think that what we do in civilian life can be drastically different as we're often not given enough warning when a situation is going to go "black". Time may be of the essence and "cocked and locked" is the only sure way to be prepared. Given the design safety of the 1911 with the GS and TS it only makes sense to be as prepared as possible when carrying a 1911.

 

[pale horse]

"The military has never carried the 1911 cocked and locked, even in combat. That is a myth. Any Military personnel whose duties require them to carry a 1911 ( and that includes the Military Police ) carried the gun hammer down on a empty chamber."

Ron this is simply not true. I have trained with members of various units in the Army SF community and they did carry it in condition one. To this day they still do carry the 1911 in condition one in our out of combat. The MP's are notorious for not getting the proper pistol training.

"Cocked and locked is a modern (1960's) invention. Even the old famed Rangers carried it uncocked ( they did carry a round in the chamber )."

The Tx Rangers were not the pinnacle of firearms training. In fact most law enforcement agencies lack firearms skills.

"I will also make a statement, all documentation shows that the 1911 was never meant to be carried cock and locked"

I guess unless you can summon John Moses Browning himself from the grave it is a moot point to even mention this.


"plus, no one in the military legally carried their 1911 other than , hammer down on a empty chamber."

BS. I dont know where you get your information at but you are wrong. 1st SOFD carries it that way so does AWG, SF, and MARSOC. So if you going to make a statement like that be able to back up your assumptions. As it is now you have profited this conversation nothing.

If anyone can show me a standard configuration of the 1911; that is faster to thumb the hammer back and engage targets, faster than I can ala cocked and locked. Please meet me in San Antonio and I will go against the clock head to head with you. My best times for Cocked and Locked from the holster is 1.2 seconds, from the high ready my best is .78 sec, 6 shot drill is 2.21 seconds. There are more but that should prove the point.

 

[NMGonzo]

In the USMC in 1956 we carried the 1911 with the hammer down on an empty chamber.

Now I carry my Kimber with a round in the chamber cocked and locked.

In the Argentinean Army I carried the Ballester Molina hammer down and empty chamber around the base. Rifles were to be carried with an empty chamber.

The idea was that one could be identifying a threat while chambering the round.

Off base, I carried the same way.

It took me many years off guns and relearning the 1911 in 2009 to carry it chambered, cocked, and locked.

 

[Ron James]

Pale Horse, 26 years Army and retired a CSM in 1986, Worked with the SF, the SOG ( Yes, my unit is listed as supporting them in the official records ). Been there and done that, If any enlisted man in any of my units or battalion carried their 1911 cock and locked with a round in the chamber I would have had him court marshaled. If any officer had, My Colonel would have had the Honors. That is where my information about how the 1911 is carried in the Military comes from. If there were cowboys out in the bad lands carrying it any other way ,it was in direct contravention of the existing regulations and lord help them if there were ever a accident. Again this was in my time, and with the 1911,I have no ideal of how they are doing it in the sand box. My last post on the subject.

 

[win71]

The original design.........?

 

[pale horse]

While I not a CSM, I am in the Army now and was in the Marines prior to that.


"Pale Horse, 26 years Army and retired a CSM, Worked with the SF, the SOG ( Yes, my unit is listed as supporting them in the official records ). Been there and done that"

Thank you for your service. I truly mean that. I am a veteran of OIF and was blown up there.

"If any enlisted man in any of my units or battalion carried their 1911 cock and locked with a round in the chamber I would have had him court marshalled. If any officer had, My Colonel would have had the Honors. That is where my information about how the 1911 is carried in the Military comes from. "

There is no shortage of the bad training in the army today. People are still rushed through training and given information that is bad as it relates to firearms training. We are still taught shooting positions from the army manual from the 80's. Which by the way is the most useless TM out there. The army is still 30 behind the power curve. I am sure of the training the army has given that there is no wonder people are still dying due to ND/AD's. The army had to come up with a training platform that worked for Joe Snuffy because he was retarded. If the training and knowledge I have now and was in a Bn that was like yours, I would have taken the Court Marshal.

There is a vast difference in the training and combat. What paper says and what actually happens in real life combat is as different as day and night. So to this day I still hold to the training I paid out of pocket for over the crap the army teaches.

Getting back to the topic at hand. It really does not matter what the manual says. JMB is not around to give input on this matter. We can discuss this all night/day long, but there really is no point.

Carry the 1911 any way you want. If you are serious about carrying it get formal training from someone who has used them like; Larry Vickers, Hilton Yam, Kyle Lamb, Paul Howe, and Swan Tiger. These guys will show you how to use them properly.

 

[NWCP]

In my 20 years of Naval service We never carried the .45 cocked and locked. As a matter of fact the pistols didn't even have a magazine inserted unless ordered by the Officer of the Deck. The only times I recall carrying with a magazine in the pistol were in high risk ports where repelling boarders was a real possibility, or a high level of security required it. At that point we were armed with either a M14, or Thompson as well as a sidearm. Still no rounds chambered unless ordered to do so, or under an immediate armed threat. While I do carry my HK cocked and locked I feel safer with it than my old government issue .45. I loved the old pistol, but it had been rode hard and put away wet many times before it ever made it to my holster. I was always assigned a Thompson when push came to shove, or a 12GA pump below decks. Either way I felt a bit more secure than with the old 1911.

 

[Clarence]

This thread must be the result of

1911 Carry Condition Derangement Syndrome

Seems like this gets debated every couple of weeks around here.

 

[Slamfire]

This thread must be the result of
Quote:
1911 Carry Condition Derangement Syndrome

Seems like this gets debated every couple of weeks around here

.

I started it because of the incorrect, dogmatic sounding, statements from the proponents of Condition One.


When Moses came down from the mountain top
Bringing the one true gun
Commanding that every trooper and every Cop
Shall bear it in Condition one

Thus sayeth the Lord.


However, it has morphed into something better, with Users describing how they carry their M1911's, or how they were told how to carry their M1911's, and the reasons why.

Too bad LEO have not posted what their Departments allow, but that may be an indication of how few Law Enforcement Agencies are carrying the thing.


I believe current M1911 discussions have spawned even more interesting threads on the M1911. And I am enjoying reading them all!

Win71's picture looks like a prototype M1910 pistol. If you notice, no thumb safety. John Moses Browning designed this pistol to be carried condition two, round in chamber and hammer down.

 

[rellascout]

Too bad LEO have not posted what their Departments allow, but that may be an indication of how few Law Enforcement Agencies are carrying the thing.

There are none that use a 1911 as a standard issue sidearm. If you know of one please point it out. I know some small localities allow them to be carried but most of the time that just means that they are on an approved list.

Your OP is inaccurate because as others point out the Armys initial field manual procedure does not equal design intent.

You are simply stirring the pot for what reason I am not sure. Again like I said earlier who cares how anyone else carries their 1911. Carry it how you want and you feel comfortable with because after all its your gun and your life. :banghead:

 

[MythBuster]

"using the logic of the OP, I am sure that Slamfire carries his 45 hammer down, empty chamber in a drop-leg cavalry holster with the flap"

Most likely not. He was just making a point.

EVERY SINGLE time this subject comes up several people claim the 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked and they claim JMB had this in mind when he designed the pistol.

He pointed out this is 100% BS.

No one is trying to tell you condition one is not safe. No one is telling you not to do it.

All he is doing is stating FACTS.

 

[rellascout]

Every single 1911 I own was designed to be carried cocked and locked.

"facts" as they are being presented here are like lies. There are 3 kinds.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

Replace statistics with your and the OPs "facts".