Do you CCW with a round chambered?

[michiganfan]

Yes otherwise it is just a rock.

 

[Hot brass]

Don`t want to rack the slide in the time of danger.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Of course, the people who like this type of draw will never have an object in the other hand, won't be pushing or pulling their loved one to safety, their other hand will never get injured, etc. You get the point.

My friend's CCW instructor was apparently one of these "chamber empty" types. The "weak hand disabled" critique was met by showing the class how he could rack the slide on the back of his jeans, under his arm, crook of his knee, and so forth. There was no excuse to carry one in the chamber.

Edited to add: I have to say that I don't endorse this and was dumbstruck when my friend shared this. I was just sharing to show that some instructors promote this kind of carry.

 

[OrvilleYertleson]

Indoubitably

Why carry it if you can't shoot it?

 

[carnaby]

Don`t want to rack the slide in the time of danger.

Heck, I don't even want the time of danger. Nothing is perfect, and given the choice between no gun and no round in the chamber, I'll take the latter.

 

[Quintin Likely]

You mean there's another way you're supposed to carry a pistol?

 

[RH822]

Chambered? Always.

HMMMMM... I wonder if the BG's carry with one in the chamber? And would they wait for me to load up if I didn't? I really don't want to find out.

RH

 

[orionengnr]

No disrespect intended

"My friend's CCW instructor was apparently one of these "chamber empty" types. The "weak hand disabled" critique was met by showing the class how he could rack the slide on the back of his jeans, under his arm, crook of his knee, and so forth. There was no excuse to carry one in the chamber."

But your friend's CCW instuctor was an idiot.

Yup, and McGyver could make an airplane out of an anvil.

Two questions:

One--do you ever think about being shot/knifed/slashed/clubbed, or needing that hand to deflect an attack in progress, or defend someone else?

Two--do you practice, regularly, finding a way to rack your slide while one hand (perhaps your strong hand) is bound/grapling, broken, shot, etc? I don't. I do practice shooting weak hand, and I don't get as much practice with either hand as I'd like.

A handgun has many disadvantages (lack of power/stopping ability being chief among them). It's only real advantages are a) concealability and b) one-hand use.

Why would you willingly nullify one of those two?

 

[FTF]

I pack a 1911 and when I'm ccw'in it's condition 1. Usually it's condition 1 when I'm not ccw'in as well.

 

[carnaby]

Why would you willingly nullify one of those two?

How about in order to not shoot your johnson off?

 

[10-Ring]

I answered this question today...I had a co-worker ask me if the handgun I carry was loaded. My reply "What good is it if it weren't loaded?"

 

[Marko Kloos]

Carrying a semi-auto with an empty chamber turns a handgun into a handsgun. I'd not be willing to bet my life on having both the time and the free hand to rack a round when the poop hits the oscillator.

Also, chambering a round under stress just introduces an unnecessary failure opportunity into the equation. You could ride the slide by accident and induce a feed jam, lose your grip and not rack it all the way properly, and so on.

I carry a wheelgun. No worries about rounds chambered, or bullet setback, or magazines coming unseated, or what have you. Just pull, point, and bang, times six. Simple is good, especially when your butt is on the line.

How about in order to not shoot your johnson off?

The way to not shoot your Johnson off is to keep your booger hook off the bang switch until it's time to shoot.

 

[Snap]

Marko, I would add "Carry a quality firearm" to that list of "Ways to not shoot your johnson off."

As to "Cary with a round chambered?" I do, all the time. Racking the slide while trying to shoot somebody just doesn't strike me as a good idea.

 

[slzy]

P7

 

[evan price]

SIG P239, Chambered & Decocked. Since it's DA/SA I don't even have to cock it to fire, or remove a safety, just point and squeeze. Sig's multilayer safeties prevent it from firing unless trigger is pulled, even if you drop it on the hammer.

 

[Arkady]

Of course.

I'm not going to waste my time and endanger my life by carrying a $900 paperweight.

If it ever gets to the point that I need a pistol to defend myself or a loved one, I'm going to need it right there, right then.

 

[Steve in PA]

"My friend's CCW instructor was apparently one of these "chamber empty" types. The "weak hand disabled" critique was met by showing the class how he could rack the slide on the back of his jeans, under his arm, crook of his knee, and so forth. There was no excuse to carry one in the chamber."

Sounds like a horse's rearend to me too.

Don't have time to rack the slide, your dead.

Hope you get it right the first time. If not, your dead.

Your friends CCW instructor needs to find another line of work, because anyone foolish enough to listen to him will likely end dead.

 

[kengrubb]

I always carry my Glock in Condition 0 (zero)


No different than a revolver insofar as readiness is concerned.


Point gun, pull trigger, gun go boom, BGFDGB

 

[Michael Courtney]

The main problem I see with it is; what if you can't use your other hand or must shoot extremely close (retention) or access the gun already in a struggle?

In a retention struggle for an unloaded (unchambered) gun, it seems like the best choice is simply let go of the gun, draw the backup, chamber and empty the magazine while the attacker is trying to figure out what all the clicks are about.

Really, if one carries a back-up, the retention struggle might just be the only scenario where the unchambered gun is an advantage because you know the gun is unchambered and your attacker does not. The disadvantage of the unloaded gun becomes your attacker's disadvantage when you let go and draw the back-up.

Not that I advocate carrying an unchambered gun. But I do recognize it can be a useful intermediate step for people in transition to carrying. Local hunting laws often require hunting guns to be unloaded (and the hunter to not be otherwise armed) when in the field before or after legal shooting hours. I certainly have always felt better prepared for a deadly force encounter carrying an unloaded shotgun back to the truck than when completely unarmed.

It's all about the amound of time into action. Carrying an unloaded gun is a 0.5-2 second disadvantage. Leaving the gun in the car is a much bigger time disadvantage. Leaving the gun at home is bigger still.

It is somewhat of an exaggeration to imply that every deadly force encounter develops so quickly that the extra time to chamber a round will cost your life. It might, or it might not. If one's first move is a quick lateral move to cover while drawing and chambering, the disadvantage depends on the ability of the attacker to hit a rapidly moving lateral target. I've studied reports of a large number of non-LEO civillian deadly force encounters. Many develop slowly enough that there is time to draw and chamber a round.

Gunfights are about time, distance, and cover. Avoiding the incoming bullets in the first two seconds are just as important (or more important) than the fastest possible first shot.

Everybody's got their own choices to make and should be realistic about the trade-offs involved. But on the whole I think more rapists and bad guys will get their due if good citizens who might not otherwise carry carried with an empty chamber. Perhaps not the best choice, but not really deserving of ridicule either. We should save the ridicule for the real enemies of RKBA.

Michael Courtney

 

[strambo]

In a retention struggle for an unloaded (unchambered) gun,

Yeah, I guess if you choose to wrestle with someone for your gun and they win...an empty chamber may help.

That's not what I meant though. I meant firing from a retention position, chamber empty would be a PITA. I'm an aggressive, offensive thinker. There won't be a struggle for my gun, if he grabs for it, I'll not wrastle for it (the bigger, stronger guy wins this contest). He can try to draw it while I crush his windpipe, shatter his knee, pick up my gun (if it even made it out of my holster) and go after his friends. Yes, I practice this sort of thing an awfull lot too.

No, chamber empty isn't bad enough to be a source of ridicule. If the person has thought it through and still accepts the disadvantages for whatever advantage they gain in their particular situation. In Iraq, I often carried chamber empty because the rules on base at our worksite said I had to. This was OK with an AK-47 because I prefer it. Easier for me to leave the selector on semi and just rack the bolt, then to have a round chambered and have to manipulate the world's most un-ergonomic selector.

 

[kengrubb]

My friend's CCW instructor was apparently one of these "chamber empty" types.

That instructor ain't in good company. I'm not aware of any school of advanced firearm instructor (FAS, LFI, Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, etc.) that teaches the so-called "Israeli Method".

I feel the need to state a few observations.

Israel tends to punch well above it's weight. Calling something the "Israeli Method" instantly gives it credibility. One could probably open an "Israeli Furniture Store" and some gunnies would flock to it on the belief that the couch would stop armor piercing AK rounds.

That the IDF teaches Condition 3 (or at least used to and would seem to be transitioning) should come as no surprise. It's 1948, you've got a bunch of folks, many without a lot of firearms knowledge, and a wide assortment of varied and sometimes questionably reliable weaponry. Lugers, Berettas, Mausers, Brownings, Walthers, et al. of 1940s vintage? Heck, I can't say that I'd wanna carry one in anything other than Condition 3. Toss in a wide range of assorted rifles and submachineguns, and Condition 3 is making more and more sense.

That which works for the military, any military, isn't necessarily a good idea for civilian law enforcement and armed private citizens carrying guns for protection. Suppression fire, tracers, fragmentation grenades, rules of engagement and acceptable losses are but a few concepts that work on the military battlefield, but I think it's best that they remain there.

The "weak hand disabled" critique was met by showing the class how he could rack the slide on the back of his jeans, under his arm, crook of his knee, and so forth. There was no excuse to carry one in the chamber.

Yeah, so? I learned strong and weak hand only draw, reload, malfunction clearance, double-feed malfunction clearance at FAS. Why? Well, sh*t happens. I fail to see the need to start the game behind the curve with an empty chamber.

Similarly, even if open carry were uniformly recognized here in Washington as legal, I would still continue to carry concealed almost always. I see no need to give up the element of surprise.

 

[DFW1911]

I've never been an especially accurate thrower of things...much less firearms (not that I've really tried), but I happen to be a pretty decent shot.

As such, I'll trust that an accurate bullet's ballistics and energy will provide more stopping power than my throwing a hunk of metal at someone and probaby missing.

Actually, I did know one guy who was deadly accurate with a snowball...but I was 7 However, this kid could nail you from untold distances. Even though small, he was always picked first!

DFW1911

 

[stevelyn]

The only time the chamber is empty is when it's in peices on my kitchen table getting cleaned.

Ask yourself if cops carry with an empty chamber and you'll answer your own question.

The Israeli method wasn't developed by Israel. It was taught by a trainer who was either an active or former Marine back in the day and didn't have any expertise with handguns and handgun fighting. He only mimiced what the Marines taught their lowlevel grunts. He didn't know any better and the neither did the Israelis.

If you notice the US military is contracting outside the military for firearms training these days because of the pratical real life doctrine that's taught.

With all the Frontsight, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, LFI, et al doctrine out there, I doubt the Israelis stil practice this BS.

 

[rich52us]

I've been carrying concealed handguns for SD both as a police officer and civilian for over 37 years. I have always carried with the weapon fully loaded and ready to fire. Modern firearms are designed to be carried safely with a round in the chamber as long as they are handled by a responsible person with a little common sense and basic training. This kind of thread comes up periodically and I don't really understand why. I don't understand why someone would want to carry a weapon for self defense that is not ready to use to defend themselves as quickly as possible.

 

[tanksoldier]

Inside, outside, alongside... of what use is an unloaded gun?